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Thread: My talk with a DNR Officer

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    I was talking to a DNR Officer today, I was asking If I converted my Remington 870 Shotgun to a Handgun, Could I carry the Remington under the CPL laws? He told me that if I am out hunting with ANY firearm that it must be Unloaded, When I am in a Motor Vehicle, Is this correct? He said that if anyone has a gun that they are hunting with, It isn`t covered in the CPL Laws. I also asked if I was Hunting/Carrying on Private Property Concealed, And Harvested game with my real Handgun, Could I return to carrying Concealed? He said any Firearm that is used to Harvest game isn`t under the CPL, It goes into the Huntring laws. Is this correct? I was confused on this one, My Dad and I carry Handguns that meet the requirments of being capable of harvesting game, And we also carry those guns for SD.

    So can I carry a Kimber Concealed on Private Property, Harvest Game on the same Property, Then return to carrying Concealed? And my Dad carrying a Kimber, Ruger Blackhawk, And a Taurus 85 do the same? Also can we carry the Firearms Concealed to and from hunting, Loaded in the vehicle?

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I can find no law in the MCL nor in the 2009 MI Hunting and Trapping Guide that prevents you from hunting with your pistol carried under a Concealed Pistol License and moving it between functions (Hunting or Personal Protection). I assume you are discussing this under the context of Firearm Deer Season (Nov 15-30).

    Links:

    Hunting Guide Firearms Regulations: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1578--,00.html

    Transport Regulations: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1579--,00.html

    Handgun Regulations: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1584--,00.html

    MCL on DNR CPL Non-Promulgation: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-324-504
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    Just keep in mind they can say what they want but in order to charge you with anything they have to have a actual law that you violated.

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    wally1120 wrote:
    I was talking to a DNR Officer today, I was asking If I converted my Remington 870 Shotgun to a Handgun, Could I carry the Remington under the CPL laws? He told me that if I am out hunting with ANY firearm that it must be Unloaded, When I am in a Motor Vehicle, Is this correct? He said that if anyone has a gun that they are hunting with, It isn`t covered in the CPL Laws. I also asked if I was Hunting/Carrying on Private Property Concealed, And Harvested game with my real Handgun, Could I return to carrying Concealed? He said any Firearm that is used to Harvest game isn`t under the CPL, It goes into the Huntring laws. Is this correct? I was confused on this one, My Dad and I carry Handguns that meet the requirments of being capable of harvesting game, And we also carry those guns for SD.

    So can I carry a Kimber Concealed on Private Property, Harvest Game on the same Property, Then return to carrying Concealed? And my Dad carrying a Kimber, Ruger Blackhawk, And a Taurus 85 do the same? Also can we carry the Firearms Concealed to and from hunting, Loaded in the vehicle?

    They sound no different then Jackson or Warren PD. Ignorant and making statements that dont reflect law. I'd say it's safe to say asking them is as good as asking regulard police officers about gun laws. Based on video evidence I'd say they are the last people to ask.



    Mike


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    I am one who hunts with a pistol on my hip. While I don't use it as my primary weapon I have harvested game with it. It is a Ruger Redhawk 44mag with 7.5 in. barrel. I carry it on my hip yet have been known to use a shoulder holster when weather bad. I have been stopped b4 with it loaded with a carry license and there was not a problem. The DNR while have a rough job to do tend to think they are above the law. They do illegal searches all the time and like some LEO's might tend to give slightly skewed advice.....Might be real careful here....just saying...
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    though... i think (i might be wrong) if you use u're concealed carry gunto hunt with also... it has to be loaded in respect to the game laws (deer hunting... 3 rounds). right? or is pistol different? i never hunted with pistol before.

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    The DNR does not always know what they are talking about. I told Wally after he had this talk with the DNR, from now on ask them to cite the law.

    A few years ago I called the DNR (I forget what city - somewhere in the Metro Detroit area) down here and asked them if I could target shoot in the shotgun zone of Michigan with a rifle such as an AK-47 on state land as long as it was not deer hunting season. The woman told me "abosolutly no". The way I read it online on the DNR website it looked like I could. I called to verbally clarify this.

    I was not satisfied with her answer and called a DNR office in Gaylord. I asked the exact same question. He told me I COULD target practice on state land with a rifle in the shotgun zone.

    So call this guy back and tell him to cite the law. If that fails, call the Gaylord DNR. But as PDinDetroit said, he can't find a law.What the DNR officer told you sounds like BSor he has no idea what he is talking about. This is why ALL officers need to have continued education in order to keep their jobs!

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Asking a DNR officer about the law is no diff than asking a cop... IMOP
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Yeah I should have realized this, When he started saying all that he was talking about. I just thought that a DNR officer would be more knowlegable about the laws. But I guess not.

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    Which office did you call?

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    It was the one closet to me, I think it was SouthField, Something South. I know it was east of us.

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    I think that's the one I calleda few years ago about target practice in the shotgun zone with a rifle.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Yes, Southfield. Great place for a DNR Office to be located:

    1. No hunting in Southfield, although there are plenty of deer in the Rouge River Watershed.

    2. Anti-Gun Mayor running the show.

    /Sarc Off
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    Yes, Southfield. Great place for a DNR Office to be located:

    1. No hunting in Southfield, although there are plenty of deer in the Rouge River Watershed.

    2. Anti-Gun Mayor running the show.

    /Sarc Off
    No kidding. I'm sure they're swamped with DNR related issues in the Metro Detroit area!

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    T Vance wrote:
    This is why ALL officers need to have continued education in order to keep their jobs!
    Paramedics and firefighters are both civil servants just like police are. These 2 professions both require the person to retest every few years. If you fail to retest the state can, will and does pull your license. IF that should happen, guess what... back to school you go. The SAME should apply to police. After a few years, police officers should be schooled and tested on the new laws, and the old ones that have changed. Failing to retest would result in having your MCOLE certification revoked.

    A misinformed officer of the law can, will and has jammed up good law abiding citizens with useless aggravation and time in court. In the end who pays for the cheap service? the person receiving it.

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    Teachers have to too as well as TONS of other professionals.

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    wally1120 wrote:
    I was talking to a DNR Officer today, I was asking If I converted my Remington 870 Shotgun to a Handgun, Could I carry the Remington under the CPL laws? He told me that if I am out hunting with ANY firearm that it must be Unloaded, When I am in a Motor Vehicle, Is this correct? NO He said that if anyone has a gun that they are hunting with, It isn`t covered in the CPL Laws. That is incorrect. I also asked if I was Hunting/Carrying on Private Property Concealed, And Harvested game with my real Handgun, Could I return to carrying Concealed? He said any Firearm that is used to Harvest game isn`t under the CPL, It goes into the Huntring laws. Is this correct? No I was confused on this one, My Dad and I carry Handguns that meet the requirments of being capable of harvesting game, And we also carry those guns for SD.

    So can I carry a Kimber Concealed on Private Property, Harvest Game on the same Property, Then return to carrying Concealed? And my Dad carrying a Kimber, Ruger Blackhawk, And a Taurus 85 do the same? Also can we carry the Firearms Concealed to and from hunting, Loaded in the vehicle? If you have a CPL you can carry any lawful handgun concealed in a vehicle.
    As stated if you are hunting with a handgun you must use the types allowed, that is caliber, magazine capacity and non-shouldered cartridge.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    Yes, Southfield. Great place for a DNR Office to be located:

    1. No hunting in Southfield, although there are plenty of deer in the Rouge River Watershed.

    2. Anti-Gun Mayor running the show.

    /Sarc Off
    There are scads of lakes and rec areas in the area. Fishing, camping, hiking, boating, etc. are all under their jurisdiction too.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    Alright, I am glad that someone could clarify all of this crap up for me. I know there were alot of questions that I was ranting on about but, Noone can ever be to safe on firearm issues. All of the Handguns that I lised are fully legal to go hunting with. My Kimber is 8 + 1 in the Magazine so I know that it is pushing the limits but, This is the gun that holds the most ammo. And yes there is a CPL holder present, Transporting back and forth to the Hunting location.

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    Maybe if you'd like pulling a delicious fresh fish out of the Rough River...I bet they are really tasty

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    Here's some insight. I have a number of friends in Law Enforcement I have known for well over 30 years. Most I have known since Jr High school.

    Here's the skinny. When there are news and law releases from the Michigan State Police, they are supposed to READ them to the officers on every roll call for 14 days. Here's the problem, most of the Brass (supervisors) don't do this and shuffle the paperwork on a desk and it may take months before they are read, if ever read to the officers. This isn't a patrol officer issue this is the political arm of the Police or Sheriff Dept withholding information and when confronted deliberately give the old deer in the headlights look. This is being done on purpose and the only way it will stop is every time we are violated by a non informed office, we sue the Police agency he works for. Again this is what police officers have told me. Oh by the way all 4 of the ones I asked this about this week are pro open carry, and have been since high school.

    If it happens to me I will sue for my Civil and Constitutional rights violations and maybe of they are tied up in court for the stupidity, we may find out it's time to replace the Police Chiefs and Sheriffs who are causing this violation of our rights.

    Frankly this is an education issue and as busy as most cops are they don't have the time chasing laws themselves when there are people PAID to provide them the information in a timely manner. We pay for this with our tax dollars.

    Than you for listening...
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    T Vance wrote:
    The DNR does not always know what they are talking about. I told Wally after he had this talk with the DNR, from now on ask them to cite the law.

    A few years ago I called the DNR (I forget what city - somewhere in the Metro Detroit area) down here and asked them if I could target shoot in the shotgun zone of Michigan with a rifle such as an AK-47 on state land as long as it was not deer hunting season. The woman told me "abosolutly no". The way I read it online on the DNR website it looked like I could. I called to verbally clarify this.

    I was not satisfied with her answer and called a DNR office in Gaylord. I asked the exact same question. He told me I COULD target practice on state land with a rifle in the shotgun zone.

    So call this guy back and tell him to cite the law. If that fails, call the Gaylord DNR. But as PDinDetroit said, he can't find a law.What the DNR officer told you sounds like BSor he has no idea what he is talking about. This is why ALL officers need to have continued education in order to keep their jobs!
    I have hand gun hunted for 30 years and I carried same weapon as CCW carry. Never have I had any DNR say anything about my practice and I have run into many, while exiting and entering a vehicle.

    I have had a couple ask me question about my custom Magnaported 4 inch S&W model 29, kinda like a kid in a candy store.
    Frankly I can't ever remember a confrontation, since that one when I was 18, that I won in court.

    I think I may call the DNR and ask while I record the conversation....
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    At least 3 different laws apply here. How they are interpreted and applied would be up to the LEO, prosecutor and court.

    First, 324.40111 covers uncased firearms and would be more appropriate if you are in the act of taking game or in area frequented by wild animals. 750.227 would be more appropriate for example if you're driving on I75 or traveling through an urban area. Both include the CPL exception.

    However, under 324.43510 the CPL exception does not apply if there is attempt to take an animal. This exeption is open to a lengthy discussion but I will give you an example of one perspective.

    You have a shotgun you have registered as pistol, now you are driving down a two track during firearm deer season, firearm loaded with slugs/buckshot, firearm laying across your lap and you are obvious road hunting, ie) attempting to take game. You can claim all you want that your CPL covers you, but a Conservation Officer will argue that the CPL exception under 324.43510 does not apply since you are attempting to take game so now you are in violation of 324.40111, CPL or not.

    Definition of "take" 324.43508: means fishing, hunting, trapping, catching, capturing, killing, or the attempt to engage in such an activity.


    324.40111 Taking animal from in or upon vehicle; transporting or possessing firearm in or upon vehicle; transporting bow in or upon vehicle; written permission to hunt or discharge firearm.
    Sec. 40111.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not take an animal from in or upon a vehicle.
    (2) Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not transport or have in possession a firearm in or upon a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and enclosed in a case, carried in the trunk of a vehicle, or unloaded in a motorized boat.
    (3) Except as otherwise provided in this part, a person shall not transport or have in possession a bow in or upon a vehicle, unless the bow is unstrung, enclosed in a case, or carried in the trunk of a vehicle.
    (4) A person shall not hunt or discharge a firearm within 150 yards of an occupied building, dwelling, house, residence, or cabin, or any barn or other building used in connection with a farm operation, without obtaining the written permission of the owner, renter, or occupant of the property.
    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.


    324.43510 Carrying or transporting firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow or trap; license required; exception; applicability to taking of wild animal.Sec. 43510.
    (1) Subject to subsection (2) and except as provided in section 43513, a person shall not carry or transport a firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow, or a trap while in any area frequented by wild animals unless that person has in his or her possession a license as required under this part.
    (2) This act or a rule promulgated or order issued by the department or the commission under this act shall not be construed to prohibit a person from transporting a pistol or carrying a loaded pistol, whether concealed or not, if either of the following applies:
    (a) The person has in his or her possession a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435.
    (b) The person is authorized under the circumstances to carry a concealed pistol without obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, as provided for under any of the following:
    (i) Section 12a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.432a.
    (ii) Section 227, 227a, 231, or 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.227, 750.227a, 750.231, and 750.231a.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not authorize an individual to take or attempt to take a wild animal except as provided by law.






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    warrior1978 wrote:
    324.40111 Taking animal from in or upon vehicle; transporting or possessing firearm in or upon vehicle; transporting bow in or upon vehicle; written permission to hunt or discharge firearm.
    Sec. 40111.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not take an animal from in or upon a vehicle.
    (2) Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not transport or have in possession a firearm in or upon a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and enclosed in a case, carried in the trunk of a vehicle, or unloaded in a motorized boat.
    (3) Except as otherwise provided in this part, a person shall not transport or have in possession a bow in or upon a vehicle, unless the bow is unstrung, enclosed in a case, or carried in the trunk of a vehicle.
    (4) A person shall not hunt or discharge a firearm within 150 yards of an occupied building, dwelling, house, residence, or cabin, or any barn or other building used in connection with a farm operation, without obtaining the written permission of the owner, renter, or occupant of the property.
    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law (so ifyour shotgun is registered as a pistol and you have a CPL you are not breaking ANY law here because a CPL allows the licensee to carry ANYWHERE in the state except for the exception of the places listed on the back of the CPL), a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.


    324.43510 Carrying or transporting firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow or trap; license required; exception; applicability to taking of wild animal.Sec. 43510.
    (1) Subject to subsection (2) and except as provided in section 43513, a person shall not carry or transport a firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow, or a trap while in any area frequented by wild animals unless that person has in his or her possession a license as required under this part.
    (2) This act or a rule promulgated or order issued by the department or the commission under this act shall not be construed to prohibit a person from transporting a pistol or carrying a loaded pistol, whether concealed or not, if either of the following applies:
    (a) The person has in his or her possession a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435.
    (b) The person is authorized under the circumstances to carry a concealed pistol without obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, as provided for under any of the following:
    (i) Section 12a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.432a.
    (ii) Section 227, 227a, 231, or 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.227, 750.227a, 750.231, and 750.231a.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not authorize an individual to take or attempt to take a wild animal except as provided by law.





  25. #25
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    warrior1978 wrote:
    snip

    You have a shotgun you have registered as pistol, now you are driving down a two track during firearm deer season, firearm loaded with slugs/buckshot, firearm laying across your lap and you are obvious road hunting, ie) attempting to take game. You can claim all you want that your CPL covers you, but a Conservation Officer will argue that the CPL exception under 324.43510 does not apply since you are attempting to take game so now you are in violation of 324.40111, CPL or not.
    What's the difference between the shotgun loaded with buckshot or slugs and a Ruger .44 magnum? Both are effective for defense. In fact, buckshot is pretty much unparalleled as far as defensive effectiveness. Unless you are actually pointing the firearm out the window, or leaning against your fender sighting down on an animal, they still have to prove your intent. If there is no game present to take, where is the attempt? I could use my 1911 to take deer. It holds less than 9 rounds, and has an accurate effective range of 25-30 yards, as long as I'm not shaking like a leaf. What if I'm driving down that two track with that in my lap? I have my pistol in my lap when I drive, because having to draw from a holster while seated is a nightmare. Innocent until proven guilty.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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