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Thread: OC, Self Defense and Ammunition

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    This was brought up on another board ans since I carry handloads almost exclusively, it is of interest, but not concern.

    I've always heard the old caveat to never carry handloads for self defense because of an increased risk of both civil prosecution and criminal.

    As Skidmark and some others here can attest, I carry some unusual rounds. I like big holes.
    Civil issues, I agree with but no matter what you carry, you'll get sued.

    Criminal is another thing though. I have never been able to verify (and neither has anyone else I know) a case where someone was prosecuted for the type (assuming it was legal) of ammunition used in a defensive shooting.

    This is only fringe OC so Mike may give it the boot, but until then, has anyone found a verified case. Please don't quote Ayoob. He's not verifiable.

    As the ammo shortage continues, seems more people are carrying handloads.

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    I've been carrying handloads since last Jan.

    I load them using once fired brass that I've personally inspected and cleaned, with uber-reliable CCI primers, and Gold Dot bullets.

    If for some reason it becomes an issue, I'll simply point to the box the bullets came in, it says right there "FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION"

    If I didn't load those bullets into cases, with primers and powder, how am I supposed to use them for personal protection? Chuck them really hard at the bad guy?

    I load my ammo to the same specs as the factory Speer load, the one adopted by NYPD, using Speer's own loading data.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    I've been carrying handloads since last Jan.

    I load them using once fired brass that I've personally inspected and cleaned, with uber-reliable CCI primers, and Gold Dot bullets.

    If for some reason it becomes an issue, I'll simply point to the box the bullets came in, it says right there "FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION"

    If I didn't load those bullets into cases, with primers and powder, how am I supposed to use them for personal protection? Chuck them really hard at the bad guy?

    I load my ammo to the same specs as the factory Speer load, the one adopted by NYPD, using Speer's own loading data.
    I'm not sure I even know what the factorie are loading anymore Nova. I even casst my own buckshot.
    My Burb gun (1911) uses hardball that I swage myself and even my 45/410 Derringer uses 444 cases loaded with sized 000 bukshot.
    I won't even talk about the Blammy Shells Skidmark and Grapeshot were looking at.

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    peter nap wrote:
    nova wrote:
    I've been carrying handloads since last Jan.

    I load them using once fired brass that I've personally inspected and cleaned, with uber-reliable CCI primers, and Gold Dot bullets.

    If for some reason it becomes an issue, I'll simply point to the box the bullets came in, it says right there "FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION"

    If I didn't load those bullets into cases, with primers and powder, how am I supposed to use them for personal protection? Chuck them really hard at the bad guy?

    I load my ammo to the same specs as the factory Speer load, the one adopted by NYPD, using Speer's own loading data.
    I'm not sure I even know what the factorie are loading anymore Nova. I even casst my own buckshot.
    My Burb gun (1911) uses hardball that I swage myself and even my 45/410 Derringer uses 444 cases loaded with sized 000 bukshot.
    I won't even talk about the Blammy Shells Skidmark and Grapeshot were looking at.
    A lot of my range ammo I load myself as well. I don't have the setup for casting anymore so I just buy bulk hardcast lead bullets from a local gun shop. They're a distributor for a company that casts them right here in VA

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    I've asked the same exact thing more than once and NEVER has anyone pointed to a specific case (or law for that matter) where using handloaded ammo made the difference between being charged or not charged, being sued or not sued, and especially between being found guilty or not guilty.

    I have come to the point where I think it is mostly internet myth that using handloaded ammo for self defense will open you up to civil/criminal charges that you wouldn't have faced if you used "factory" ammo.

    I hope I never have to use any ammo in self defense but if I am ever in a situation where I have to shoot to stay alive I wont really be concerned about using handloads.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    6L6GC wrote:
    I've asked the same exact thing more than once and NEVER has anyone pointed to a specific case (or law for that matter) where using handloaded ammo made the difference between being charged or not charged, being sued or not sued, and especially between being found guilty or not guilty.

    I have come to the point where I think it is mostly internet myth that using handloaded ammo for self defense will open you up to civil/criminal charges that you wouldn't have faced if you used "factory" ammo.

    I hope I never have to use any ammo in self defense but if I am ever in a situation where I have to shoot to stay alive I wont really be concerned about using handloads.
    That was around long before the internet.

    One big downside of being raised in a family full of lawyers is, you get the "Better Watch Out" lectures. That was one of them and it started before the computer was invented (PC's anyway).

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Where did the original minutemen buy their factory standard ammunition?

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I can remember reading an article about hand loads and self-defense shooting. Itwas written by Who Else? Ayoob, of course...

    He did say use factory loaded ammo or else you would be sued for "intentional maiming" or some other silliness. Hewrote a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo but nothing I can recall that would "hold water".

    That was at least 10 years ago... maybe closer to 20... Sorry.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: I didn't take the time to read this at all beyond the first sentence, but Google popped it out, so here it is:

    Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

    It's a post by Mr. Ayoob on THR.

    TFred


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Disclaimer: I didn't take the time to read this at all beyond the first sentence, but Google popped it out, so here it is:

    Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

    It's a post by Mr. Ayoob on THR.

    TFred
    I saw that Fred. not really much meat there.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Did Ayoob ever reference an actual incident where anybody paid any attention to who loaded the ammo (assuming otherwise "normal" bullets were used)?

    Edit: I see that post above. None of his examples are particularly convincing. The closest he came was with the wife suicide story, but when that many things go wrong there's no telling what could happen.

    Personally, I carry factory ammo, but I still am not convinced that Ayoob isn't being a little paranoid.

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    peter nap wrote:
    This was brought up on another board ans since I carry handloads almost exclusively, it is of interest, but not concern.

    I've always heard the old caveat to never carry handloads for self defense because of an increased risk of both civil prosecution and criminal.

    As Skidmark and some others here can attest, I carry some unusual rounds. I like big holes.
    Civil issues, I agree with but no matter what you carry, you'll get sued.

    Criminal is another thing though. I have never been able to verify (and neither has anyone else I know) a case where someone was prosecuted for the type (assuming it was legal) of ammunition used in a defensive shooting.

    This is only fringe OC so Mike may give it the boot, but until then, has anyone found a verified case. Please don't quote Ayoob. He's not verifiable.

    As the ammo shortage continues, seems more people are carrying handloads.
    1) It's your choice. It appears to me that there are those who are invested in giving advice try to push commerical ammo. I guess it comes from the police investigator's point of view.

    2) Carry NRA self-defense insurance.

    3) Have a lawyer that you can call 24x7.

    4) Make a large batch of loads that are consistent. Make sure to check the velocity and use the same powder charge. I'd measure every round to make sure they're exactly the same. Document the load. This should be useful in court...talk to your lawyer about it and make sure he or she knows how to handle this.

    You may want to duplicate the specs on a commercial load. For example Speer Gold Dot bullets are available and the velocities are published. It really does not matter what powder propelled the bullet downrange. The velocity at which it hits is the important part. In the example, the Speer Gold Dot bullet has a known level of performance at certain velocities.

    5) I think the main problem with handloads is that it is supposedly "impossible" to duplicate the distances involved in the investigation. I guess they use the powder residue to determine distance. It seems to me that proper documentation and spare rounds would give the police the ability to test the ammo. Courts have ruled that documents written at the time are legal and admissible (not sure where I read that).

    6) Know the usual stuff...when to fight and when to evade. Make sure it's a good fight.



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    I'm not sure folks are reading this correctly.

    I don't recall Ayoob saying you would get sued solely because of handloads.

    And his post linked above he discusses having trouble in court because of handloads.

    I'm thinking he is more discussing giving the accuser additional angles to support his overall theory.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    I'm not sure folks are reading this correctly.*

    I don't recall Ayoob saying you would get sued solely because of handloads.*

    And his post linked above he discusses having trouble in court because of handloads.

    I'm thinking he is more discussing giving the accuser additional angles to support his overall theory.
    Sure, but that's why his point is so weak to begin with. They could do this with anything.

    .45? Gangster weapon. .44? Dirty harry weapon. Why do you carry such an unnecessarily deadly caliber? 10mm? GOD FORBID.

    FMJ? You want to shoot people through doors. Why are you using MILITARY ammo!?! JHP? Why do you want to use extra-deadly rounds which expand to cause even more injury and increase the likelihood of death?

    Hell, it seems to me that if we were to follow Ayoob's advice to it's logical conclusion, we'd all be carrying .22s or Tasers.

    Sure, the prosecution is going to come up with ridiculous stuff once you're on trial. See what happens if you get put on trial and did everything by Ayoob's book! They'll still claim you used excessive force, by virtue of it being a gun.

    On the same token, I have a hard time imagining that handloaded ammo is going to be the factor that causes prosecution where otherwise there would be none.

    The case with the wife... he's leaving something out. There has to be another reason it looked like a homicide. Hell, maybe it was a homicide, based on what Ayoob shared with us. There's got to be more to go on than just powder residue, whatever you're looking for.

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    All ofmy firearms shoot nothing but my ownhand-loaded ammunition, and for a very good reason.
    I had a brand new left-handed Remington 700,30-06 that was built inRemington's custom shopfor me that came apart on the 10th round I fired through the gun at the range.
    I was shooting Remington 'Core-Lokt" factory ammo when it came apart, and it caused some injuries me. Besides the scars from powder burns, pieces of steel and brassthatpenetrated my hands, arms, & face. I also had a piece of brass lodged in my eye that bounced up under my glasses when it exploded.

    I have also seen a 1911 get destroyed by factory ammo, the cartridge did not have a flash-hole punched in it, You may not think a primer is all that powerful, but when there is no place for that explosion to go, it breaks steel parts real easily. All we heard was a click like a misfire, and the guy could not open the slide on the gun, it was jammed tight. He was retired from theFBI and was one of the ballistics gurus, I met him while shooting at my local range and we have shot together often before this happened.

    I'll take my chances in court if I ever am forced to fire defensively, how does that saying go? "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

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    marshaul wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'm not sure folks are reading this correctly.

    I don't recall Ayoob saying you would get sued solely because of handloads.

    And his post linked above he discusses having trouble in court because of handloads.

    I'm thinking he is more discussing giving the accuser additional angles to support his overall theory.
    SNIP Sure, but that's why his point is so weak to begin with.
    ThatIagree with.

    I've read a lot of Ayoob. And it does seem to me you have to leaven it a bit or the "worry, gloom, and doom" possibilities take on perhaps more significance than they deserve.

    There is no denying his expertise, though. That fella seems to know his stuff. Been an expert witness for twenty years or something.

    Its not the data. Its the viewpoint on how the data should be used.

    His data seems reliable, though. Certainly I've never been able to refute anything he's written.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Hell, it seems to me that if we were to follow Ayoob's advice to it's logical conclusion, we'd all be carrying .22s or Tasers.
    A .22, why you must be a hitman wannabe! And what kind of sadistic wacko uses an electro-torture device on poor, innocent gangbangers?

    The above is supposed to read tongue in cheek by the way, curse the internet and its inability to properly convey sarcasm.


    As for the topic at hand, I don't have any personal experience with handloading, but judging from what's been written by people that do, I'd say it comes down to whether or not you trust your handloads to be as reliable as factory loaded ammo.


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    Heartless_Conservative wrote:
    As for the topic at hand, I don't have any personal experience with handloading, but judging from what's been written by people that do, I'd say it comes down to whether or not you trust your handloads to be as reliable as factory loaded ammo.
    Nah, comes down to whether or not the prosecuting attorney wishes to try to make the case that you were intentionally, negligently or wantonly using excessive force et al by using hand loaded ammunition - then whether or not that is of real concern to you .

    IMO - its an emotion based case, rather than a factual one in any event, but the results are very real. - ymmv.

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    cREbralFIX wrote:
    4) Make a large batch of loads that are consistent. Make sure to check the velocity and use the same powder charge. I'd measure every round to make sure they're exactly the same. Document the load. This should be useful in court...talk to your lawyer about it and make sure he or she knows how to handle this.

    You may want to duplicate the specs on a commercial load. For example Speer Gold Dot bullets are available and the velocities are published. It really does not matter what powder propelled the bullet downrange. The velocity at which it hits is the important part. In the example, the Speer Gold Dot bullet has a known level of performance at certain velocities.

    5) I think the main problem with handloads is that it is supposedly "impossible" to duplicate the distances involved in the investigation. I guess they use the powder residue to determine distance. It seems to me that proper documentation and spare rounds would give the police the ability to test the ammo. Courts have ruled that documents written at the time are legal and admissible (not sure where I read that).

    6) Know the usual stuff...when to fight and when to evade. Make sure it's a good fight.


    With regards to the "wife suicide" story, Ayoob said in another article:

    The court refused to accept as evidence (Defendant) Bias' loading notes, which showed a reload so light that it stopped depositing residue at arms length. It was a case of "the defendant manufactured the evidence," which kept it from being accepted. No court would accept as evidence a defendant's handwritten diary that claimed he was elsewhere on the day in question, and this situation fell into the same category. Handloaders hate hearing that, which has made "handloads for defense" topic one of the most controversial one on Internet gun discussion boards, but in all these years no one has ever been able to show a case where a court did accept a handloader's records or testimony as to what was in the gun.
    I canunderstand how people might see Ayoob being paranoid but I value his views and experiences and find it very interesting to read about the potential/possible consequences of choices we make when carrying. His recommendations are based on what he has seen in his career and while I don't necessarily followall of them I appreciate his point of view.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    People cannot cite any case law on this point because there has been none. Ayoob is basing his position on years of observation of juries. What he is actually trying to get people to see is this.

    A clever lawyer can make great progress in convincing a jury as an aggravating factor that the use of some kind of homemade horrifically vicious round designed to heighten the pain, suffering and damage to the victim proves your intent to cause harm well beyond any need to defend your self. The creation of this ammo could be used to show prior intent in a lot of areas up to and including the premeditation elements of murder.

    His argument rings hollow because there have been no such cases.

    That said, most people carry factory ammo because they think reloading is an expensive and complicated process. In fact it is not and the equipment will pay for itself. However, I would still recommend carry of factory ammo as there is no rational reason to become the first case that could be cited in this area of law.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    ...no rational reason...
    I've heard of people who won't trust their lives on a round they didn't load themselves, by hand, with the utmost of caution.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    ...no rational reason...
    I've heard of people who won't trust their lives on a round they didn't load themselves, by hand, with the utmost of caution.
    Well like everything else in this business, it is all personal choice. I have carried reloads, but not very often, and I do not make it a regular practice.

    Nice to see your still around.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
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    I just use hydra shok in my 45

    185gr



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    I used Hydrashock for years, now Hornaday has a new load called DAP. It's coated with teflon so there is no gunky buildup on them or the weapon if left chambered for a long time. These were created by the Law Enforement.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    ...no rational reason...
    I've heard of people who won't trust their lives on a round they didn't load themselves, by hand, with the utmost of caution.
    More interestingly... This site is dedicated to people who make themselves into test cases because someone has to set a precedent...
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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