simmonsjoe wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
Consider this. Assuming you do not hit something really important, Shutting biological organisms down has a lot to do with blood loss. Making blood leak out has a lot to do with the size of the hole you make. You decide...
Please note that most 147grain 9mm is junk. The small added mass doesn't overcome the slower speed and rounds less than 120grain with +p loads will allow for less deflection in the body.
Case in fact the superior .357sig is 125grains.. Just like the best 357mag defensive rounds.
I would like to see a 9mm para necked down to .32. I think you could see 1,400FPS with a 100-110 grain round. Expansion would be almost guaranteed. It would be a drop in barrel replacement in most guns. (a la .400 cor-bon) I would trust my life to that before a 9mm para.
Part of this argument would make sense if the 9mm was not typically loaded to around 1100 FPS, using nominally 115 grain bullets. The .45 is typically loaded to around 850 FPS, using a 230 grain bullet. Now when you get into performance bullets for either of these they tend to get lighter, but the manufacturers keep the pressures the same so they are faster. In fact some of the newer .45 loads include +P loads that push the pressures up and allow for speeds above 1100 FPS, using 185 grain bullets.
So when you say that a 9mm bullet has to be pushed to higher speeds to work well that is correct as far as it goes. Where you lose me is when you imply that the .45 is somehow faster than the 9mm when it clearly is not. There is some truth to the inertia argument, but pushing the 9mm faster will not improve its track through meat and bone.
The .45 was designed to replace older designs that were typically loaded with black powder. Principally the .45 long colt . This was necessary because the targets were getting harder to stop. There are reasons that most handgun ammo has settled into the .35 to .45 caliber size range, and not all of them have to do with what fits in a handgun sized package. Despite the claims in this thread that the difference between .40 and .45 are not important or significant, it should be noted that the main competitor for dominance at the time the .45 ACP came along was the .41. The .45 won for a lot of reasons, but mostly because it made a bigger hole, and it left all its energy in the target, and the .41 did not because it over penetrated.
The fact is that most defensive shootings are settled by blood loss in the target, not instant stoppages. Rarely are people hit in areas vital enough to produce an instant shutdown. Assuming perfect shot placement, a big bullet will work just as well as a small one. If the aim is off just a little the larger bullet works best. Defensive shooting is not like taking elk. You do not have time to sit an take careful aim and choose the timing of your shot to produce the best effect. It is a frantic, disturbing, measured, rapid, event, that depends on muscle memory and trained responses to be successful. Bigger holes make for better results.
Regards
