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Thread: what do I need to know before shooting?

  1. #1
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    I'm not 100% sure on what I need to do before shooting a BG. This meaning how do I cover my butt if I have to shoot and kill someone? Both at home and on the streets. I know the basics make sure you hit your target and not someone behind or by the target. But is there anything that I have to say or do before shooting? How many times must I ask someone to leave my property (someone that is disturbing and threatening me and my family) before shooting? I just want to make sure I don't end up in jail if I ever have to shoot.

    Thanks,

    Nate

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    Nate245 wrote:
    I'm not 100% sure on what I need to do before shooting a BG. This meaning how do I cover my butt if I have to shoot and kill someone? Both at home and on the streets. I know the basics make sure you hit your target and not someone behind or by the target. But is there anything that I have to say or do before shooting? How many times must I ask someone to leave my property (someone that is disturbing and threatening me and my family) before shooting? I just want to make sure I don't end up in jail if I ever have to shoot.

    Thanks,

    Nate

    Step 1: Take a CCW class from a reputable instructor/source. The information in that class gives one a great baseline understanding of pretty much everything you're looking for. Emphasis on 'baseline' though since there is a LOT more to it than could ever be presented in a one day class (or a longer class even.)

    Step 2: Get active and learn as much as you can. Read up on forums like this. Watch the local news. Pay attention to what the politicians are up to. Get some additional training. Get some more additional training. Practice, practice, practice.

    Step 3: Get a lawyer on retainer for the unfortunate circumstance in which you need to actually use your firearm.


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    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...7/ai_12462185/

    http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html

    Just a couple of articles to get you started bro. I'll say this....Understand the implications completely without having to think about it...instinct. If the time ever comes, you will not time to sit and think about it, you'll have only an instant to react. But your actions must be justified.

    After these articles, google "deadly force" and read up.
    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    Thank you both for your time and the articles. I am setting up a CCW class and should be taking it within the next few weeks. I'll read up as much as I can to make sure that I fallow the law in the case of ever needing to use my firearm.

    Thanks again,

    Nate

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    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
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    +100 on the CCW class. My wife took one this summer, and I saw the study materials. Overall, it was a great primer on the law and use of force

    I will say that the class did give some erroneous information, but all if it was 'erring on the side of caution' I guess.

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    I would second all the notions of never stop educating yourself. But yes, if that time ever comes, it's going to be instinct. Ultimately, if you have not made the decision that you could kill a person, then you're not ready to start carrying a gun. You also need to hone your situational awareness so that you minimize the risk of getting into a situation like that in the first place. And, as we just found out in Tacoma (the four police officer slaying), sometimes being armed doesn't matter anyway.

    But yes, read forums, continue to discuss issues with your peers, and train with your equipment. Also practice "visualization." For example, you're in a C-store buying chips at the back when a man in a mask comes in and points a weapon at the clerk. You should get to the point that when you walk into C-stores in real life, you can pick up the nearest cover (racks of chips, whatever), nearest exits, and know that if that situation I just described actually happened, you would be justified in using deadly force to protect the clerk/yourself.

    To answer your specific questions, you don't have to give a verbal warning before using deadly force, and to the best of my knowledge (IANAL), you don't have to give any warning to someone on your property before firing but I would recommend being able to articulate why you felt threatened, ie "He crushed a brick with his hand and said he'd do the same to me if I didn't give him all my money."

    Cheers!
    My location says I am from Sierra Vista, AZ which is where I live now but I actually lived in MO for 26 years! So please stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when I post in the Missouri forum!

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    Let's put it this way:

    In the home: If the bad guy falls outside your door, you drag him in.

    On the street: If the bad guy didn't have a screwdriver in his hand before you shot him, make sure he has one after.



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    protector84 wrote:
    Let's put it this way:

    In the home: If the bad guy falls outside your door, you drag him in.

    On the street: If the bad guy didn't have a screwdriver in his hand before you shot him, make sure he has one after.

    Aaaaaargh! MASSIVE FACEPALM.

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    protector84 wrote:
    Let's put it this way:

    In the home: If the bad guy falls outside your door, you drag him in.

    On the street: If the bad guy didn't have a screwdriver in his hand before you shot him, make sure he has one after.

    Arizona has a "stand your ground" statute - you have no duty to retreat to the home to engage in self defense. Dragging somebody into the house is disturbing a crime scene and makes you look more suspicious.

    If somebody threatens you without a visible weapon, use defensive display (but don't unholster) and get out of the situation non-violently if you can. Keep your distance and don't fire unless they do something to actually physically threaten you.

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    After speaking with many cops on this issue along with doing my own research in Arizona you are allowed to use dealy force if you ARE IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE OR THELIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON.

    That being said some one breakin into your house un armed doesnt mean you can shoot them.

    Also I have found out that if you even aim your gun then they can considerte as you were not in fear for your life because you had time to aim your gun and if you had time to aim you had time to get out of the situation.

    Cops have told me until some one pulls a gun or charges you with a weapon keep your gun holstered. Too many people get trigger happy and end up spending a long time in prison.





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    rc4life wrote:
    That being said some one breakin into your house un armed doesnt mean you can shoot them.

    Also I have found out that if you even aim your gun then they can considerte as you were not in fear for your life because you had time to aim your gun and if you had time to aim you had time to get out of the situation.

    Cops have told me until some one pulls a gun or charges you with a weapon keep your gun holstered. Too many people get trigger happy and end up spending a long time in prison.
    The last people you should trust with the law are police officers. If this is what they told you, then they got it wrong.

    1. ARS 13-407 and 13-408 allows the threatening of physical force (just by aiming the gun at someone) as well as the use of physical force when it comes to preventing criminal trespass and in defense of immovable property. So, yes -- you can shoot the robber who is breaking into your house even if he is unarmed. We have castle doctrine and no jury in hell would make an attempt to charge you with anything.

    2. I'm glad to hear that police officers are throwing basic marksmanship out the window and telling people not to aim. Now I know why they can't shoot. Use defensive display to try and deter them, and if that doesn't work, then:

    3. You can make a citizens arrest in accordance with ARS 13-3884. And if the cops are allowed to pull out their guns to make arrests, then I don't see why you can't -- threatening physical force for the purposes of crime prevention in public is legal under ARS 13-411 Section D. If the attacker is obviously doing something wrong but is not making a direct threat to you or others -- for example, breaching the peace or committing a felony as defined by ARS 13-3884/13-411 -- then you may be able to use your weapon to detain them long enough for the "real" police to arrive.

    Note: I am not a lawyer. But I do plan to become one, maybe. So take this with a large grain of salt until I get into law school.


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    like_the_roman wrote:
    1. ARS 13-407 and 13-408 allows the threatening of physical force (just by aiming the gun at someone) as well as the use of physical force when it comes to preventing criminal trespass and in defense of immovable property. So, yes -- you can shoot the robber who is breaking into your house even if he is unarmed. We have castle doctrine and no jury in hell would make an attempt to charge you with anything.
    13-407 specifically states that "PHYSICAL FORCE" is allowed.. not DEADLY force (these are two VERY different terms/meanings), EXCEPT when your life is in danger. I am not aware of a SINGLE case where civillian use of deadly force is legal/justified in the defense of PROPERTY. Life, and life ONLY.This of course ties only to USE of either type of force. 'Threat' of use of both appears to be A-OK.

    "B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406."

    like_the_roman wrote:
    2. I'm glad to hear that police officers are throwing basic marksmanship out the window and telling people not to aim. Now I know why they can't shoot. Use defensive display to try and deter them, and if that doesn't work, then:

    Does sound like one rather idiotic cop. Of course, you might as well ask the service cashier at a car dealership how to repair the transmission on your car. Cop != lawyer =)

    like_the_roman wrote:
    3. You can make a citizens arrest in accordance with ARS 13-3884. And if the cops are allowed to pull out their guns to make arrests, then I don't see why you can't -- threatening physical force for the purposes of crime prevention in public is legal under ARS 13-411 Section D. If the attacker is obviously doing something wrong but is not making a direct threat to you or others -- for example, breaching the peace or committing a felony as defined by ARS 13-3884/13-411 -- then you may be able to use your weapon to detain them long enough for the "real" police to arrive.

    If one really wants to play cop, one truly should just become one.

    I can't speak for everyone, but I carry a gun not to become the local superhero. I carry it to defend my own life, and the lives of those close to me. MAYBE the life of a 3rd party if I actually have enough information to act on. (I say maybe because I truly can't say for sure how *I* will react if put into such a situation.)

    I'll leave the arresting task to those who are paid to do it, have a legal safety net to do so, and who choose to take that risk in their choice of career. I'm a computer geek for a reason! =)

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    I'd like to voice the opinion that while this discussion is excellent, ultimately it's going to be an instinct call.

    If someone breaks in during the day, you're going to be able to see the person, and immediately ask them to identify while drawing down. If they threaten by drawing themselves or advancing, bang.

    If someone breaks in at night, where's your flashlight. Shooting at shadows may very well have some consequences, especially if it's a family member coming to surprise you (I have read accounts of this happening - father shot daughter on his birthday, etc.), or if your bullet travels outside the home and strikes someone else.

    First rule - KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT.
    My location says I am from Sierra Vista, AZ which is where I live now but I actually lived in MO for 26 years! So please stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when I post in the Missouri forum!

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    Thoreau wrote:
    like_the_roman wrote:
    1. ARS 13-407 and 13-408 allows the threatening of physical force (just by aiming the gun at someone) as well as the use of physical force when it comes to preventing criminal trespass and in defense of immovable property. So, yes -- you can shoot the robber who is breaking into your house even if he is unarmed. We have castle doctrine and no jury in hell would make an attempt to charge you with anything.
    13-407 specifically states that "PHYSICAL FORCE" is allowed.. not DEADLY force (these are two VERY different terms/meanings), EXCEPT when your life is in danger. I am not aware of a SINGLE case where civillian use of deadly force is legal/justified in the defense of PROPERTY. Life, and life ONLY.This of course ties only to USE of either type of force. 'Threat' of use of both appears to be A-OK.

    "B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406."

    like_the_roman wrote:
    2. I'm glad to hear that police officers are throwing basic marksmanship out the window and telling people not to aim. Now I know why they can't shoot. Use defensive display to try and deter them, and if that doesn't work, then:

    Does sound like one rather idiotic cop. Of course, you might as well ask the service cashier at a car dealership how to repair the transmission on your car. Cop != lawyer =)

    like_the_roman wrote:
    3. You can make a citizens arrest in accordance with ARS 13-3884. And if the cops are allowed to pull out their guns to make arrests, then I don't see why you can't -- threatening physical force for the purposes of crime prevention in public is legal under ARS 13-411 Section D. If the attacker is obviously doing something wrong but is not making a direct threat to you or others -- for example, breaching the peace or committing a felony as defined by ARS 13-3884/13-411 -- then you may be able to use your weapon to detain them long enough for the "real" police to arrive.

    If one really wants to play cop, one truly should just become one.

    I can't speak for everyone, but I carry a gun not to become the local superhero. I carry it to defend my own life, and the lives of those close to me. MAYBE the life of a 3rd party if I actually have enough information to act on. (I say maybe because I truly can't say for sure how *I* will react if put into such a situation.)

    I'll leave the arresting task to those who are paid to do it, have a legal safety net to do so, and who choose to take that risk in their choice of career. I'm a computer geek for a reason! =)
    Exactly what I was about to say. Physical force and deadly force are two hole different things. To justify deadly force you have to be legitimitly in fear for your life, So if a 120 pound 5'3 un armeddude breaks in you cannot simply blast him away with out a ligit fear for your life.

    Deadly force is an absolute LAST resort before all other options are exhuasted, That being said thats why they recomend leaving your gun holstered. If you are being broken into there's no telling how nervous your going to be, if he comes through the window with no weaponand you panic and put one through his chest a prosecuting attorney will tear you up in court and you will be facing homicide charges.



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    Thoreau wrote:
    13-407 specifically states that "PHYSICAL FORCE" is allowed.. not DEADLY force (these are two VERY different terms/meanings), EXCEPT when your life is in danger.* I am not aware of a SINGLE case where civillian use of deadly force is legal/justified in the defense of PROPERTY.* Life, and life ONLY.***This of course ties only to USE of either type of force.* 'Threat' of use of both appears to be A-OK.

    "B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406."
    True, but there's more. ARS 13-411 allows for both physical and/or deadly force in a number of situations that don't necessarily involve an immediate threat to life.

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    sigsog7 wrote:
    Thoreau wrote:
    13-407 specifically states that "PHYSICAL FORCE" is allowed.. not DEADLY force (these are two VERY different terms/meanings), EXCEPT when your life is in danger. I am not aware of a SINGLE case where civillian use of deadly force is legal/justified in the defense of PROPERTY. Life, and life ONLY.This of course ties only to USE of either type of force. 'Threat' of use of both appears to be A-OK.

    "B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406."
    True, but there's more. ARS 13-411 allows for both physical and/or deadly force in a number of situations that don't necessarily involve an immediate threat to life.
    Well, I'd say that many the examples specified in 13-411 actually do involve threat to life...

    "arson of an occupied structure" - that's a good way to kill people, that's for sure. Kidnapping, manslaughter, 2nd or 1st degree murder, statutory rape, sexual assault (keeping in mind rape is considered a solid defense for use of deadly force right from the get go), etc.

    Some of the items in there certainly do seem a little gray though, specifically burglary. That looks to be a good statute for everyone who owns a firearm to read/get somewhat familiar with.

    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/00411.htm

    Code:
    13-411.  Justification; use of force in crime                  prevention; applicability
    A.  A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly  physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that  physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's  commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the  second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section  13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section  13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault  under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under  section 13-1904 or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1  and 2.
    B.  There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly  physical force justified by subsection A of this section.
    C.  A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if  the person is acting to prevent the commission of any of the offenses listed in  subsection A of this section.
    D.  This section is not limited to the use or threatened use of physical or deadly  physical force in a person's home, residence, place of business, land the person owns or  leases, conveyance of any kind, or any other place in this state where a person has a  right to be.

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    PavePusher wrote:
    protector84 wrote:
    Let's put it this way:

    In the home: If the bad guy falls outside your door, you drag him in.

    On the street: If the bad guy didn't have a screwdriver in his hand before you shot him, make sure he has one after.
    Aaaaaargh! MASSIVE FACEPALM.
    Never, repeat never, tamper with the evidence of a shooting scene. It WILL bite you in the butt!

    Worst advice I've seen on this site this year! :X

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    PavePusher wrote:
    protector84 wrote:
    Let's put it this way:

    In the home: If the bad guy falls outside your door, you drag him in.

    On the street: If the bad guy didn't have a screwdriver in his hand before you shot him, make sure he has one after.
    Aaaaaargh! MASSIVE FACEPALM.
    Never, repeat never, tamper with the evidence of a shooting scene. It WILL bite you in the butt!

    Worst advice I've seen on this site this year! :X

    Yata hey
    Especially since this isn't Texas. Our castle doctrine doesn't say that simple presence on a victim's property is just cause for deadly force use.

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