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Thread: Michigan OC?

  1. #1
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    I was looking at this guy's documentation earlier, and can't find it now, which speaks to my inability to find what I saw yesterday, but more importantly, finding what I said in the past.

    So let me summarize: This guy in Michigan is complaining about being harassed by local LEOs repeatedly for wearing a firearm openly. He is a United States Marine with a valid CCW permit, but he is carrying a weapon openly, which violates CCW guidelines in Michigan. There are multiple videos duplicating multiple situations of "police harassment".

    So, you ask, is the weapon (a 1911) I gather, loaded? Good question.

    I researched briefly and found an essay (not actual statutes) that says that a concealed weapon, carried by a legal CCW holder, must remain concealed. Period. It mentioned that if the wind happened to blow one's jacket up to reveal a concealed weapon, citizens that may see it may become alarmed, panic, and run for the hills while dialing 911 on their cell phones. Plus the unfortunate wardrobe malfunction victim is likely to be prosecuted for revealing a concealed weapon (is this BS, or what?).

    I am assuming this guy is carrying loaded openly, else why would the police keep harassing him? Even though he has a legally issued CCW permit, the cops are pissed because he carries it loaded plain sight? I don't know.

    I'm angered because this can happen in America, and states like Michigan and New York ignore the United States Constipation.

    So, let's here your opinions: If you have a CCW permit, what happens if a citizen should happen to see a weapon due to a wardrobe malfunction due to an accident, or unconsciousness?

    Should you be persecuted for allowing your weapon to show? These same rules need to apply to LEOs out of uniform.

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    I am that guy... if you would like to talk PM me, or if you want to chat I have yahoo messenger

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    No thanks, I have no legal advise. If you would like an exchange of information, do it here, please.

    Greg

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    eh, i wasn't looking for legal advice, but that's cool.

    as far as MI law, can you post a link to that essay you read?

    in MI there is no law against OC, and with a CPL there are no stipulations that require you to CC. The officers are misinformed. having a concealed pistol permit grants you the privilege to CC, but does not negate your right to OC.

    As a matter of fact in MI if you OC with a CPL all the "no carry zones" go away
    with a CPL you can not CC in a bar, with out a CPL you can not OC in a bar, but if you OC with a CPL you are legal to carry in a bar. the only places off limits are all courthouses(except Hilsdale) and federal property.


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    Kimberguy wrote:
    eh, i wasn't looking for legal advice, but that's cool.

    as far as MI law, can you post a link to that essay you read?¬*

    in MI there is no law against OC, and with a CPL there are no stipulations that require you to CC.¬* The officers are misinformed. having a concealed pistol permit grants you the privilege to CC, but does not negate your right to OC.

    As a matter of fact in MI if you OC with a CPL all the "no carry zones" go away
    with a CPL you can not CC in a bar, with out a CPL you can not OC in a bar, but if you OC with a CPL you are legal to carry in a bar.¬* the only places off limits are all courthouses(except Hilsdale) and federal property.
    No, sir, do you own research. As to the link, I googled something like "Michigan CCW Rules" - good luck friend, the intercourse IS YOUR FRIEND!

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    Kimberguy wrote:
    eh, i wasn't looking for legal advice, but that's cool.

    as far as MI law, can you post a link to that essay you read?¬*

    in MI there is no law against OC, and with a CPL there are no stipulations that require you to CC.¬* The officers are misinformed. having a concealed pistol permit grants you the privilege to CC, but does not negate your right to OC.

    As a matter of fact in MI if you OC with a CPL all the "no carry zones" go away
    with a CPL you can not CC in a bar, with out a CPL you can not OC in a bar, but if you OC with a CPL you are legal to carry in a bar.¬* the only places off limits are all courthouses(except Hilsdale) and federal property.
    Maybe so; all I'm saying is that I could not find legislation to support your position. Are you carrying loaded?

    As acronyms go, ULOC (Unloaded Open Carry) and LOC (Loaded Open Carry) may have different legal meanings in our respective 50 states. Obviously, someone screwed up; the law of the land should be uniform from sea to shining sea.

    But, in some states, a free right turn on red is legal .... need I say more?

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    Lead Lobber wrote:
    Kimberguy wrote:
    eh, i wasn't looking for legal advice, but that's cool.

    as far as MI law, can you post a link to that essay you read?

    in MI there is no law against OC, and with a CPL there are no stipulations that require you to CC. The officers are misinformed. having a concealed pistol permit grants you the privilege to CC, but does not negate your right to OC.

    As a matter of fact in MI if you OC with a CPL all the "no carry zones" go away
    with a CPL you can not CC in a bar, with out a CPL you can not OC in a bar, but if you OC with a CPL you are legal to carry in a bar. the only places off limits are all courthouses(except Hilsdale) and federal property.
    No, sir, do you own research. As to the link, I googled something like "Michigan CCW Rules" - good luck friend, the intercourse IS YOUR FRIEND!
    WTF? Kimberguy alluded to actual law, not some essay. I haven't looked up the law myself, but obviously if Kimberguy broke the law, he'd have been arrested. Since he wasn't, when the cop was clearly looking for a reason, that should tell any lucid person NO LAWS WERE VIOLATED. I suppose the water in sunnyvale has a lot of unfiltered LSD in it.
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    1) Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    c) A court.
    d) A theatre.
    e) A sports arena.
    f) A day care center.
    g) A hospital.
    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection
    (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.



    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; ‚Äúpremises‚ÄĚ defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.Sec. 5o.
    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.



    now, here is my research. these are from the state of MI web sight. in order to carry in all these places, we are required to OC. there is also no legislation in MI in regards to carrying a loaded fire arm. personally mine are all loaded with one in the tube.

    I was interested in chatting with you just to talk and share opinions and point of views.


    Here is mine:
    in Michigan there should be absolutely no repercussions for allowing your fire arm to show. my reasoning is because there is no laws forbidding it.
    your state law may differ.


    as far as the essay was concerned, i was simply curious. I like to read the misinformation that is out there because it helps me know what i need to debunk when informing the uneducated.

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    Lead Lobber,

    Loaded Open Carry is legal in Michigan with or without a CPL (Concealed Pistol License).

    An essay is not law and if the essay that you're referring to said that, it's incorrect.


    Also, you may be unaware of this little fact but how laws in America work is if there's no law against it, it's legal.

    Laws in America are made to restrict, not allow certain activities. On the flip side, in France it's just the opposite. In France if there's no law stating that it's ok (legal) you can't do it.

    BTW: This isn't France.

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    Lead Lobber wrote:
    So, you ask, is the weapon (a 1911) I gather, loaded? Good question.
    No, not a good question.

    What is the point of carrying an unloaded firearm? An unloaded firearm is no different than a rock, paperweight, ball of yarn, dirt clod, or hunk of cheese.

    Without bullets, a firearm cannot be used for its intended purpose. (to propell a projectile) Therefore, it must be used for another purpose.

    What other purpose would that be?

    Maybe you could throw it at someone trying to shoot you. Maybe you could hold it up like a shield to block incoming rounds. You sure couldn't use it to shoot with.

    I dunno. Maybe you could tell me the point in carrying an unloaded gun?

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    Superlite27 wrote:
    Lead Lobber wrote:
    So, you ask, is the weapon (a 1911) I gather, loaded? Good question.
    No, not a good question.

    What is the point of carrying an unloaded firearm? An unloaded firearm is no different than a rock, paperweight, ball of yarn, dirt clod, or hunk of cheese.

    Without bullets, a firearm cannot be used for its intended purpose. (to propell a projectile) Therefore, it must be used for another purpose.¬*

    What other purpose would that be?

    Maybe you could throw it at someone trying to shoot you. Maybe you could hold it up like a shield to block incoming rounds. You sure couldn't use it to shoot with.

    I dunno. Maybe you could tell me the point in carrying an unloaded gun?
    He's from California. You can't carry loaded there - and some people from there assume that's normal.

    It's not normal.

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    Lead Lobber wrote:
    I was looking at this guy's documentation earlier, and can't find it now, which speaks to my inability to find what I saw yesterday, but more importantly, finding what I said in the past.

    So let me summarize: This guy in Michigan is complaining about being harassed by local LEOs repeatedly for wearing a firearm openly. He is a United States Marine with a valid CCW permit, but he is carrying a weapon openly, which violates CCW guidelines in Michigan. There are multiple videos duplicating multiple situations of "police harassment".

    So, you ask, is the weapon (a 1911) I gather, loaded? Good question.

    I researched briefly and found an essay (not actual statutes) that says that a concealed weapon, carried by a legal CCW holder, must remain concealed. Period. It mentioned that if the wind happened to blow one's jacket up to reveal a concealed weapon, citizens that may see it may become alarmed, panic, and run for the hills while dialing 911 on their cell phones. Plus the unfortunate wardrobe malfunction victim is likely to be prosecuted for revealing a concealed weapon (is this BS, or what?).

    I am assuming this guy is carrying loaded openly, else why would the police keep harassing him? Even though he has a legally issued CCW permit, the cops are pissed because he carries it loaded plain sight? I don't know.

    I'm angered because this can happen in America, and states like Michigan and New York ignore the United States Constipation.

    So, let's here your opinions: If you have a CCW permit, what happens if a citizen should happen to see a weapon due to a wardrobe malfunction due to an accident, or unconsciousness?

    Should you be persecuted for allowing your weapon to show? These same rules need to apply to LEOs out of uniform.
    Well, there's not much one can do if you're not willing to listen.

    You're severely misinformed.

    Our Michigan law, and Michigan Attorney General have confirmed for us that Loaded Open Carry is legal here, with or without a CPL. Having a Concealed Pistol License grants you additional privileges to carry concealed and carry openly in so-called "Pistol Free Zones" in Michigan, except Federal Buildings, Casinos, and Courthouses.

    Michigan law has the answer. Your essay has misinformation.

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    Lead Lobber wrote:
    Maybe so; all I'm saying is that I could not find legislation to support your position. Are you carrying loaded?

    As acronyms go, ULOC (Unloaded Open Carry) and LOC (Loaded Open Carry) may have different legal meanings in our respective 50 states. Obviously, someone screwed up; the law of the land should be uniform from sea to shining sea.

    But, in some states, a free right turn on red is legal .... need I say more?
    http://legislature.mi.gov/ Good place to start.

    28.425o, 750.234d, Michigan Constitution Article 1 Section 6

    Those are a few search items for you.

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    Don't know why this is just a MI thing. Here in VA, OC is not illegal. I have a Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP-name varies state to state). I stick 'em in a holster, in my pocket, in my waistband, my sock, wherever I want. Don't usually think twice about it as I always carry and do whatever is convenient considering what I am wearing and what gun I have that day.

    I USUALLY either conceal a little .38 in a coat pocket or wear the .40 holstered, though. I USUALLY don't just tuck in the back pocket or waistband. But sometimes I will.

    The CHP expands my options, IMO, not limits them.
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    Hey guys he's not interested in what is actually legal. He is a Troll.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Lead Lobber wrote:
    I was looking at this guy's documentation earlier, and can't find it now, which speaks to my inability to find what I saw yesterday, but more importantly, finding what I said in the past.

    So let me summarize: This guy in Michigan is complaining about being harassed by local LEOs repeatedly for wearing a firearm openly. He is a United States Marine with a valid CCW permit, but he is carrying a weapon openly, which violates CCW guidelines in Michigan. There are multiple videos duplicating multiple situations of "police harassment".

    So, you ask, is the weapon (a 1911) I gather, loaded? Good question.

    I researched briefly and found an essay (not actual statutes) that says that a concealed weapon, carried by a legal CCW holder, must remain concealed. Period. It mentioned that if the wind happened to blow one's jacket up to reveal a concealed weapon, citizens that may see it may become alarmed, panic, and run for the hills while dialing 911 on their cell phones. Plus the unfortunate wardrobe malfunction victim is likely to be prosecuted for revealing a concealed weapon (is this BS, or what?).

    I am assuming this guy is carrying loaded openly, else why would the police keep harassing him? Even though he has a legally issued CCW permit, the cops are pissed because he carries it loaded plain sight? I don't know.

    I'm angered because this can happen in America, and states like Michigan and New York ignore the United States Constipation.

    So, let's here your opinions: If you have a CCW permit, what happens if a citizen should happen to see a weapon due to a wardrobe malfunction due to an accident, or unconsciousness?

    Should you be persecuted for allowing your weapon to show? These same rules need to apply to LEOs out of uniform.
    You do not have to carry concealed once you get a Michigan CPL. The CPL allows one the option to carry concealed if they so desire.

    OC is fairly new in Michigan, but groups like MOC, Inc and participants of this forum have helped educate the public as well as LEOs on the legality of OC.

    The police in the video you saw were wrong when they insisted you HAVE to conceal if you have a CPL. As for Kimberguy's harassment it has predominately been done by one officer in the Jackson PD that has a personal dislike for kimberguy.

    This issue is being addressed and we hope that the harassment will stop.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    The one thing I have noticed is people will see something posted on here from another state and think all states laws are the same.And if we post our state laws they will still argue we are wrong.Go figure....
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    Lead Lobber wrote:

    He is a United States Marine with a valid CCW permit, but he is carrying a weapon openly, which violates CCW guidelines in Michigan.
    umm....there is not one single law in my state(MI) that states that we cannot OC with a cpl.


    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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