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Thread: If someone other than LEO attempts to dis-arm you

  1. #1
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    Just curious on this one. As in like a public place regular citizen type deal.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Situations like this are part of the reason I use a Level II retention holster (Serpa CQC). Getting my Para out of the Serpa is awkward enough for a 3rd party that they shouldn't be able to succeed before I realize what's going on, and I can place a hand or elbow over my grip while I deploy a well-placed elbow, knee, or boot into the tender spots of said "grabber" as a gentle reminder that their attempted action was a VERY bad decision.

    Of course, this is assuming that I would allow anyone other than my wife or daughters to get that close to me (which is highly unlikely) without elevating my SA level dramatically.

    Remember folks, it's ALL about Situational Awareness, and a BIG part of that is maintaining a safe and secure "personal space". I generally try to keep at least 2 arms length distance between myself and people I don't know when I'm carrying, and more when I'm not.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionŚand this is hogwash."
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    Shooting them with my second gun is an option, too.

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    You would sooner grab a rattlesnake's tongue.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    They'll get sprayed and will be put on the deck (not that they'd know I'm carrying because I carry concealed all the time). Someone doing that is asking for trouble. Its probably guaranteed that their intentions are NOThonorable for you and/or your family and it doesn't matter whether you are armed or not!! Vexor-v7 isn't a fun ride for anybody either andI highly recommend Vexor if you need a really effective OC spray!!I carry a can of it in microspin dispersion Mk3 size in a pocket daily.

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    An elbow to the face or throat would probably be my first move follwed with a backwards kick to the knee or lower leg to dislocate the knee.

    It would be sad for the person thinking they were jokingaround bygrabbing another mans pistol. But something like that is not a joking matter.

    There was a story from an OCDO member a few months back that had a cop standing behind him in a line place his hand on the guys pistol. He showed some restraint and didn't flatten the guy because he said he knew it was a cop. I do not care who it is, I feel a grab at my gun I am using all the force I can muster to retain my gun and seperate that person from it ASAP.

    I have been charged with battery of a public servant once already (the charges were laterdropped) whensomeone idiot grabbed me from behind and surprised me. I pushed into this unknown person to knock them off-balance and then came around with my other arm and punched this person in the chest as hard as I possibly could.
    Imagine the look of shock on my face when I saw a sheriff's deputy landing on his ass and heard the wind getting knocked out of him, then the sound of him trying to catch his breath while on his hands and knees wheezing! The rest of the night got real ugly, real fast after that incident. I stopped after my initial hit, backed up and put my hands on top of my head to show surrender. Then the SOB tackeled me and tried to beat me whern I was not resisting.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    I have been charged with battery of a public servant once already (the charges were laterdropped) whensomeone idiot grabbed me from behind and surprised me. I pushed into this unknown person to knock them off-balance and then came around with my other arm and punched this person in the chest as hard as I possibly could.
    Imagine the look of shock on my face when I saw a sheriff's deputy landing on his ass and heard the wind getting knocked out of him, then the sound of him trying to catch his breath while on his hands and knees wheezing! The rest of the night got real ugly, real fast after that incident. I stopped after my initial hit, backed up and put my hands on top of my head to show surrender. Then the SOB tackeled me and tried to beat me whern I was not resisting.
    Why were the charges dropped, Nutczak?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Treat anyone who tries to take your weapon out of its holster as someone attempting to get your gun and use it against you. Use whatever force is necessary to prevent an attacker from getting your gun. Anyone who tries to get your gun IS AN ATTACKER. If they actaully get it out of the holster, they could easily use it to kill you or anyone else around you. This is a situation where you would probably be justified in using deadly force.

    Train in at least some basic weapon retention techniques. Your life might depend on it.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    Treat anyone who tries to take your weapon out of its holster as someone attempting to get your gun and use it against you. Use whatever force is necessary to prevent an attacker from getting your gun. Anyone who tries to get your gun IS AN ATTACKER. If they actaully get it out of the holster, they could easily use it to kill you or anyone else around you. This is a situation where you would probably be justified in using deadly force.

    Train in at least some basic weapon retention techniques. Your life might depend on it.
    In my mind.... ANYONE who forcibly attempts to disarm me WITHOUT advance noticewhile I am carrying is commiting assult/battery against my person. I am very willing to construe ANY attempt to obtain my firearm BY FORCE as an attempted homicide upon me or those arround me as I have NO IDEA of who the attacker is or what there intentions are! And I will defend myself!

    If the make advance notice then it provides me with the needed time to determine if said person is Law Enforcement or otherwise. Don't mean I won't later do all that is neccesary to protect my rights....

    Enough said!
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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    ARE YOU SERIOUS?
    This thread seems a little inflammatory.
    Poster is new.
    I think this post is a little vague.

    Although he asks the question almost like its an etiquette thing,

    Perhaps he is actually asking about techniques to defend against being disarmed?

    Situational Awareness
    Retention Holsters
    Conceal Carry

    Strikes to the Solar Plexus, Nose, and Testicles (If applicable)
    can cause a momentary loss of faculties necessary for you to regain control of your gun (due to nerve bundles), at which time you retreat and draw tight(elbow locked to your side) and FIRE if he shows signs of coming at you still.

    And HankT I don't care about your postulate(in this circumstance). Anyone who's gotten this close can move to deflect your weapon before you can respond.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    HankT wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:
    I have been charged with battery of a public servant once already (the charges were laterdropped) whensomeone idiot grabbed me from behind and surprised me. I pushed into this unknown person to knock them off-balance and then came around with my other arm and punched this person in the chest as hard as I possibly could.
    Imagine the look of shock on my face when I saw a sheriff's deputy landing on his ass and heard the wind getting knocked out of him, then the sound of him trying to catch his breath while on his hands and knees wheezing! The rest of the night got real ugly, real fast after that incident. I stopped after my initial hit, backed up and put my hands on top of my head to show surrender. Then the SOB tackeled me and tried to beat me whern I was not resisting.
    Why were the charges dropped, Nutczak?
    Sounds like the brutality in the last sentence would cover it.

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    If a non-LEO grabs your weapon without permission, wouldn't it be grand larceny or even strong-arm robbery?

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    I would caution against shooting someone unless they have managed to gain unauthorized possession of your loaded firearm or were already armed prior to attacking you. Personally, I'd strongly recommend using other forms of retention techniques as well as some PPCT techniques.

    Its a good idea to keep everything nonlethal if possible andfollow theescalation of force protocol. This is what OC, batons, and tasers are designed for and they are allusually very effective if deployed properly. Don't use your gun in asituation like this unlessyou have no other options left. Using a firearm against a singleattacker that is not armed(unless they were already armed at the time of attacking you or they somehow managed to gain unauthorized possession of your loaded sidearm) will probably land you in a lot of legal trouble. There is no sense in losing your right to own firearms for doing something dumb such as not following the escalation of force rules. YOU don't want to look like the aggressor in court, and believe me, a good prosecutor is going to try to make you look like the aggressor. Thats my opinion on this. Thats why I say first use retention techniques, then spray, then go from there if whatever methods you are deploying don't seem to be working. I'm not saying DF isn't an option, because it is. Just make sure you've exhausted everything else before making the decision to shoot.

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    All Hell would break loose....at least for a few seconds.

    Grapeshot....I like to say "You'd rather french kiss a rattlesnake than mess with me".

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    LRS76251 wrote:



    I would caution against shooting someone unless they have managed to gain unauthorized possession of your loaded firearm or were already armed prior to attacking you. Personally, I'd strongly recommend using other forms of retention techniques as well as some PPCT techniques.

    Are you nuts?What if, in trying to follow these "other forms of retention techniques" I fail, and the attacker gets my gun? What am I supposed toshoot them withAFTER they have control of my gun?

    Its a good idea to keep everything nonlethal if possible andfollow theescalation of force protocol.

    THEY have already escalated the situation by trying to takeMY gun. They can keep it nonlethal by keeping to themselves.

    This is what OC, batons, and tasers are designed for and they are allusually very effective if deployed properly.

    Who carries all of this crap with them every day, except LEOs?

    Don't use your gun in asituation like this unlessyou have no other options left.
    They have already exhausted my other options by trying for my gun.

    Using a firearm against a singleattacker that is not armed (unless they were already armed at the time of attacking you or they somehow managed to gain unauthorized possession of your loaded sidearm) will probably land you in a lot of legal trouble.

    Not in any of the "free" states. Once again, what are you supposed to useafter they have your gun?

    Q: When does an assault become dangerous enough to justify use of DF?

    A: When the assaulter attacks you.

    Just because they may not be armed, doesn't mean that they are not dangerous. If they get my gun, then I know that they are dangerous.

    There is no sense in losing your right to own firearms for doing something dumb such as not following the escalation of force rules.

    There is no sense in letting someone get your gun and losing your right tolive because you are afraid of some anti-gun official getting upset about your choice to survive. Only a bureaucrat, lawyer, or cop worries about "escalation of force rules" when fighting for control of a gun.

    YOU don't want to look like the aggressor in court, and believe me, a good prosecutor is going to try to make you look like the aggressor.

    Only the most rabid anti-gunner would try to say that you were the aggressor in this situation. Even if that happened, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

    Thats my opinion on this.
    You are entitled to it, but I can't help but think that only someone who has spent an extended time as a LEO in a very restrictivepart of the country,would buy into what you are saying. I can't help but think that you must be a cop, or have been one in the past. Not everyone (very few in fact)goes about their daily business with a duty belt full of gear on them.

    Thats why I say first use retention techniques, then spray, then go from there if whatever methods you are deploying don't seem to be working. I'm not saying DF isn't an option, because it is. Just make sure you've exhausted everything else before making the decision to shoot.
    I agree on the retention thing (No.1 priority is keeping possession of your gun), but after that, I'm probably not going to want to go into a long debate about what their intentions are.

    No person in their right mind is going to try for your gun with only honorable intentions. They go for the gun, they are up to no good. They are bent on violenceat worst, stupid beyond belief at best. Either way, they are an immediate threat to the personal safety of yourself and all around you. Treat them as such.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    All Hell would break loose....at least for a few seconds.

    Grapeshot....I like to say "You'd rather french kiss a rattlesnake than mess with me".
    Sounds like a religious experience.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Gordie wrote:
    LRS76251 wrote:



    I would caution against shooting someone unless they have managed to gain unauthorized possession of your loaded firearm or were already armed prior to attacking you. Personally, I'd strongly recommend using other forms of retention techniques as well as some PPCT techniques.

    Are you nuts?What if, in trying to follow these "other forms of retention techniques" I fail, and the attacker gets my gun? What am I supposed toshoot them withAFTER they have control of my gun?

    Its a good idea to keep everything nonlethal if possible andfollow theescalation of force protocol.

    THEY have already escalated the situation by trying to takeMY gun. They can keep it nonlethal by keeping to themselves.

    This is what OC, batons, and tasers are designed for and they are allusually very effective if deployed properly.

    Who carries all of this crap with them every day, except LEOs?

    Don't use your gun in asituation like this unlessyou have no other options left.
    They have already exhausted my other options by trying for my gun.

    Using a firearm against a singleattacker that is not armed (unless they were already armed at the time of attacking you or they somehow managed to gain unauthorized possession of your loaded sidearm) will probably land you in a lot of legal trouble.

    Not in any of the "free" states. Once again, what are you supposed to useafter they have your gun?

    Q: When does an assault become dangerous enough to justify use of DF?

    A: When the assaulter attacks you.

    Just because they may not be armed, doesn't mean that they are not dangerous. If they get my gun, then I know that they are dangerous.

    There is no sense in losing your right to own firearms for doing something dumb such as not following the escalation of force rules.

    There is no sense in letting someone get your gun and losing your right tolive because you are afraid of some anti-gun official getting upset about your choice to survive. Only a bureaucrat, lawyer, or cop worries about "escalation of force rules" when fighting for control of a gun.

    YOU don't want to look like the aggressor in court, and believe me, a good prosecutor is going to try to make you look like the aggressor.

    Only the most rabid anti-gunner would try to say that you were the aggressor in this situation. Even if that happened, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

    Thats my opinion on this.
    You are entitled to it, but I can't help but think that only someone who has spent an extended time as a LEO in a very restrictivepart of the country,would buy into what you are saying. I can't help but think that you must be a cop, or have been one in the past. Not everyone (very few in fact)goes about their daily business with a duty belt full of gear on them.

    Thats why I say first use retention techniques, then spray, then go from there if whatever methods you are deploying don't seem to be working. I'm not saying DF isn't an option, because it is. Just make sure you've exhausted everything else before making the decision to shoot.
    I agree on the retention thing (No.1 priority is keeping possession of your gun), but after that, I'm probably not going to want to go into a long debate about what their intentions are.

    No person in their right mind is going to try for your gun with only honorable intentions. They go for the gun, they are up to no good. They are bent on violenceat worst, stupid beyond belief at best. Either way, they are an immediate threat to the personal safety of yourself and all around you. Treat them as such.
    I second all the ripping done by Gordie
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    Nobody said you have to carry all of that gear. However, I would highly recommend having at least one non-lethal option at your disposal. If you don't want to take heedto what I had to say, then fine, you don't have to. Its your butt, not mine. I'm trying to pass on some experience so you don't have to live it. I used to teach this sort of thing to civilians as well as federal government personnel at one time in my life and know what I'm talking about.

    Its a good idea to get training in things other than just firearms because not every encounter is going to be one where using a firearm would be justified. At a minimum, get some OC spray and learn how to use it properly. There are lots of good brands out there...Vexor, Saber Red, First Defense, FOX, Punch II/III, ASP OC kubatons, etc. Pick one and learn how to use it. Check your local laws for any size restrictions or mixture restrictions and possession laws. Some places are more strict than others such as NY and CA.

    Just because someone goes for your gun doesn't mean you can shoot them.Everydefensive situation is different and you have to use good judgement based on what is happening at the time. If you jump the gun, more than likely, itsgoing to be YOUR butt facing charges. The actualaggressor won't be facing charges because he'll be dead and will probablybe referred to as the "victim" by a prosecutor.

    Another thing, if youfind yourself in a self defense situation, whatever you do, please keep inmind that you have a right to remain silent. DO NOT assume the police will be sympatheticto you and will be on your side. They will NOT. They are on the scene to investigate a homicide and you will be the one holding the smoking gun. Call your attorney and SHUT UP!!!!

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    TheMrMitch wrote:
    All Hell would break loose....at least for a few seconds.

    Grapeshot....I like to say "You'd rather french kiss a rattlesnake than mess with me".
    Sounds like a religious experience.

    ┬*┬*┬*┬*┬*┬*┬*┬* Yata hey
    Only in certain parts of the Appalachians.:what:

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    LRS76251 wrote:
    Nobody said you have to carry all of that gear. However, I would highly recommend having at least one non-lethal option at your disposal. If you don't want to take heedto what I had to say, then fine, you don't have to. Its your butt, not mine. I'm trying to pass on some experience so you don't have to live it. I used to teach this sort of thing to civilians as well as federal government personnel at one time in my life and know what I'm talking about.

    Its a good idea to get training in things other than just firearms because not every encounter is going to be one where using a firearm would be justified. At a minimum, get some OC spray and learn how to use it properly. There are lots of good brands out there...Vexor, Saber Red, First Defense, FOX, Punch II/III, ASP OC kubatons, etc. Pick one and learn how to use it. Check your local laws for any size restrictions or mixture restrictions and possession laws. Some places are more strict than others such as NY and CA.

    Just because someone goes for your gun doesn't mean you can shoot them.Everydefensive situation is different and you have to use good judgement based on what is happening at the time. If you jump the gun, more than likely, itsgoing to be YOUR butt facing charges. The actualaggressor won't be facing charges because he'll be dead and will probablybe referred to as the "victim" by a prosecutor.

    How did I know that you were tied to LE somehow? Not that I have a problem with LEOs (some of my best friends have been cops), but they do have to work under a different set of rules from the rest of us.

    I know a few instructors, Sheriffs, DAs, and regular old cops, and I have never heard them say anything like this in regards to non-LEO.

    Maybe the problem is that I live in a "free" state, and you live in a more restrictive one? Where I'm from (NW Nevada), if someone goes for your gun, it does mean that you can shoot them. In fact, if they attack you with nothing but their fist, you can shoot them.

    You are not required to endure a beating, or reduce the level of your response, justbecause the attacker assures you that you will not die. People are beaten to death with bare hands all the time. An empty hand can be used as a lethal weapon.
    Also, how can you know that they are not armed? Just because you see no weapon, doesn't mean that there isn't one.

    Just remember the mantra, "I was in fear for my life, they left me no choice." As long as there is no evidence that you are lying, there should be little problem from LE. YMMV

    Bottom line, as I said before, only the most rabidly anti-gun prosecutor would prosecute you for drawing your gun and/or shooting someone who went for your gun.

    Another thing, if youfind yourself in a self defense situation, whatever you do, please keep inmind that you have a right to remain silent. DO NOT assume the police will be sympatheticto you and will be on your side. They will NOT. They are on the scene to investigate a homicide and you will be the one holding the smoking gun. Call your attorney and SHUT UP!!!!
    This IS great advice. In my situation, I am familiar with local LE, prosecutors, and a few judges (rural areas with small populations can be nice that way), andI am confidant that they would be sympathetic to the victim of the attack. If I was dealing with anyone else, I would definitely lawyer up.

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    OOPS! Double tap.

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    Splice together every scene in the martial arts movie "The Streetfighter" in which Sonny Chiba beats, kicks, castrates or blinds somebody so that they all happen without any pauses between them... that's for starters.

    I assume that anybody who's trying to get my gun is planning to use it on me. I'll do ANYTHING necessary to prevent getting shot.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    LRS76251 wrote:
    Nobody said you have to carry all of that gear. However, I would highly recommend having at least one non-lethal option at your disposal. If you don't want to take heedto what I had to say, then fine, you don't have to. Its your butt, not mine. I'm trying to pass on some experience so you don't have to live it. I used to teach this sort of thing to civilians as well as federal government personnel at one time in my life and know what I'm talking about.

    Its a good idea to get training in things other than just firearms because not every encounter is going to be one where using a firearm would be justified. At a minimum, get some OC spray and learn how to use it properly. There are lots of good brands out there...Vexor, Saber Red, First Defense, FOX, Punch II/III, ASP OC kubatons, etc. Pick one and learn how to use it. Check your local laws for any size restrictions or mixture restrictions and possession laws. Some places are more strict than others such as NY and CA.

    Just because someone goes for your gun doesn't mean you can shoot them.Everydefensive situation is different and you have to use good judgement based on what is happening at the time. If you jump the gun, more than likely, itsgoing to be YOUR butt facing charges. The actualaggressor won't be facing charges because he'll be dead and will probablybe referred to as the "victim" by a prosecutor.

    Another thing, if youfind yourself in a self defense situation, whatever you do, please keep inmind that you have a right to remain silent. DO NOT assume the police will be sympatheticto you and will be on your side. They will NOT. They are on the scene to investigate a homicide and you will be the one holding the smoking gun. Call your attorney and SHUT UP!!!!
    I for one never said to shoot the attacker. I said that you would probably be justified in using lethal force. There are many different methods of using lethal force. If someone is attempting to take my gun, then they are attempting to use lethal force against me.

    I happen to be hypersensitive to OC. I once caught an infintesimally small amount carried on the wind from someone else using it. Nobody around me reacted to it. My eyes swelled shut and I could hardly breath. Took me about 30 minutes to recover. So I will never carry OC as it would be self-defeating to do so.

    If someone attempts to take my firearm, they will first get a strong side elbow. If that doesn't stop them, then that will be followed up by either my knife, or my cane, whichever is most appropriate, and either can be applied with equal lethality.

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    old dog wrote:
    If a non-LEO grabs your weapon without permission, wouldn't it be grand larceny or even strong-arm robbery?

    I would consider it the same as if someone walked up behind me and tried to pickpocket my wallet - attempted robbery.

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    You might want to check the state statute in your area concerning carrying ... somewhere in there it should say something like "you are responsible for the firearm at all times."

    If someone tries to take your gun, resist with all force necessary. Trying to take your gun is an ATTACK!

    As for what to do if they get your gun, shoot them with your BUG!
    cheers - okboomer
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