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Thread: City of Flint Firearms codes 31-20

  1. #1
    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    § 31-20 FIREARMS— HANDLING, FIRING AND THE LIKE.
    (a) Definition. The word FIREARM except as otherwise specifically defined in this code, shall be construed to include any weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas or air as a means of propulsion.

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, except an officer in the discharge of his duties, to draw, flourish or fire any firearm in the City, except as authorized by law; provided, that nothing contained herein shall prohibit the drawing, flourishing or firing of air guns or firearms in duly licensed firing ranges or shooting galleries.

    (c) It shall be unlawful for any person to transport or to have in possession in or upon any vehicle a firearm unless the same is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. It shall be unlawful to carry a firearm on any public street or in any public place unless it is unloaded and in a case, except as authorized by law.

    (d) Any person observed doing any of those things prohibited by this section shall be required to represent to any peace officer, forthwith, evidence of authorization that the person is exempt from the provisions thereof.

    (Ord. 146, passed 10-5-15; Am. Ord. 1846, passed 9-9-65; Am. Ord. 2161, passed 9-29-69)
    I'll be contacting The City attorney Today.
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

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    LaVere wrote:
    § 31-20 FIREARMS— HANDLING, FIRING AND THE LIKE.
    (a) Definition. The word FIREARM except as otherwise specifically defined in this code, shall be construed to include any weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas or air as a means of propulsion.

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, except an officer in the discharge of his duties, to draw, flourish or fire any firearm in the City, except as authorized by law; provided, that nothing contained herein shall prohibit the drawing, flourishing or firing of air guns or firearms in duly licensed firing ranges or shooting galleries.

    (c) It shall be unlawful for any person to transport or to have in possession in or upon any vehicle a firearm unless the same is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. It shall be unlawful to carry a firearm on any public street or in any public place unless it is unloaded and in a case, except as authorized by law.

    (d) Any person observed doing any of those things prohibited by this section shall be required to represent to any peace officer, forthwith, evidence of authorization that the person is exempt from the provisions thereof.

    (Ord. 146, passed 10-5-15; Am. Ord. 1846, passed 9-9-65; Am. Ord. 2161, passed 9-29-69)
    I'll be contacting The City attorney Today.
    A person carrying a registered (LTP, License To Purchase) pistol or is a CPL holder would be exempt per 31-20...IMO.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I'm not sure but I think part (d) would be enforceable.

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    dougwg wrote:
    I'm not sure but I think part (d) would be enforceable.
    I agree. If you were stopped in the City of Flint, for whatever reason, providing your CPL/ID would be "evidence of authorization." If you were not a CPL holder, your green card or the officer running your pistol's SN would also apply.

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    So the Flint police can stop a citizen under (d) and demand id/cpl/pistol registration if they see a firearm? The wording makes it appear the burden is on the citizen to prove they haven't violated this statute. Don't think it should even be on the books due to the pre-emption cases.

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    Trainer wrote:
    So the Flint police can stop a citizen under (d) and demand id/cpl/pistol registration if they see a firearm? The wording makes it appear the burden is on the citizen to prove they haven't violated this statute. Don't think it should even be on the books due to the pre-emption cases.
    IMO, the ordinance is not in violation 123.1102. The "...except as authorized by law"parallels the preemption.

    ETA: In my previous reply, I assumed the "stop" is warrented/legal.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Trainer wrote:
    So the Flint police can stop a citizen under (d) and demand id/cpl/pistol registration if they see a firearm? The wording makes it appear the burden is on the citizen to prove they haven't violated this statute. Don't think it should even be on the books due to the pre-emption cases.
    IMO, the ordinance is not in violation 123.1102. The "...except as authorized by law"parallels the preemption.

    ETA: In my previous reply, I assumed the "stop" is warrented/legal.
    No preemption violation, But come on guys that is a violation of federal and state law. Unreasonable search and/or seizure. You do not have to provide ID or a license without RAS or PC. No way this would be lawful.




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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    "except as authorized by law" doesn't seem like it should get them off the hook.They are still placing restrictions on firearms by makingit a violationuntil you prove otherwise.Plus, is open carry "authorized by law" or because there isn't a law prohibiting it?

    Not trying to argue. Just starting to wade through all the legalese & laws which generally leaves me with a pounding headache

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    Part C is in violation of preemption.

    (c) It shall be unlawful for any person to transport or to have in possession in or upon any vehicle a firearm unless the same is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. It shall be unlawful to carry a firearm on any public street or in any public place unless it is unloaded and in a case, except as authorized by law.
    There are two statements there.

    The first pertaining to transport or possession of a loaded firearm while in or upon any vehicle. The second is pertaining to possessing a loaded firearm while on a public street or public place.

    Only the second part states "except as authorized by law". The exception is in reference to the second part only, as the two statements are separate sentences.

    There is no exception to the first part so as this law is written I would understand it as even with a CPL you would be in violation of this law if you possessed a loaded firearm in or upon any vehicle. Thus violating preemption.

  10. #10
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Trainer wrote:
    "except as authorized by law" doesn't seem like it should get them off the hook.They are still placing restrictions on firearms by makingit a violationuntil you prove otherwise.Plus, is open carry "authorized by law" or because there isn't a law prohibiting it?

    Not trying to argue. Just starting to wade through all the legalese & laws which generally leaves me with a pounding headache
    OC is NOT disallowed by law so it's lawful and therefore authorized.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    LaVere wrote:
    § 31-20 FIREARMS— HANDLING, FIRING AND THE LIKE.
    (a) Definition. The word FIREARM except as otherwise specifically defined in this code, shall be construed to include any weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas or air as a means of propulsion.

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, except an officer in the discharge of his duties, to draw, flourish or fire any firearm in the City, except as authorized by law; provided, that nothing contained herein shall prohibit the drawing, flourishing or firing of air guns or firearms in duly licensed firing ranges or shooting galleries.

    (c) It shall be unlawful for any person to transport or to have in possession in or upon any vehicle a firearm unless the same is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. It shall be unlawful to carry a firearm on any public street or in any public place unless it is unloaded and in a case, except as authorized by law.

    (d) Any person observed doing any of those things prohibited by this section shall be required to represent to any peace officer, forthwith, evidence of authorization that the person is exempt from the provisions thereof.

    (Ord. 146, passed 10-5-15; Am. Ord. 1846, passed 9-9-65; Am. Ord. 2161, passed 9-29-69)
    I'll be contacting The City attorney Today.
    My Take:

    (c) is composed of 2 separate sentences, only one of which has the clause "except as authorized by law". The first sentence containing a regulation is not enforceable due to MI Preemption Law (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102). IMO - (c) should be removed from this ordinance as it holds no merit and cannot be enforced (only creates extra "legal junk" as it were).

    (d) I agree with Venator's comments here.


    The last time this regulation was "touched" was 1969. It looks like it is need of a little "housekeeping".
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    I agree with Venator

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    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    " If you have a CPL you can carry anywhere and in any fashion in the state of Michigan "

    How about that, instead of all the double talk. BS

    If I may use my brother as an example. He is 70, does not have and never will have a computer. He only follows what in on his CPL card. Where is he going to get all of this good advice shown here and other websites.

    Some of us go to great length to get the information just look back on this and other Forums. And we still are confused as to what is right and wrong.

    Oh! ask a police officer they will tell you the law. ( maybe maybe not ) They are not legally required to tell you the truth. Or maybe they just don't know.

    Arn't we all,well at least I am tired of all the legalese and other BS.

    Repeat " If you have a CPL you can carry anywhere and in any fashion in the state of Michigan"

    Sorry for the rant.
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Oh, and now you think you're smarter then our legislators?







    I can't believe the level of incompetence shown in our elected officials, yet they're still there.

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    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    Oh, and now you think you're smarter then our legislators?







    I can't believe the level of incompetence shown in our elected officials, yet they're still there.
    I don't think I'm smarter than them at all.

    Why the personal attact? I did nothing to you or anyone on this Forum.

    I am saying, just keep it simple an understandable. " You have a CPL. You can carry most anywhere. " That's it.


    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

    ************************************************** ********************

    http://www.generalnewsgroup.com/

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    LaVere wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    Oh, and now you think you're smarter then our legislators?







    I can't believe the level of incompetence shown in our elected officials, yet they're still there.
    I don't think I'm smarter than them at all.

    Why the personal attact? I did nothing to you or anyone on this Forum.

    I am saying, just keep it simple an understandable. " You have a CPL. You can carry most anywhere. " That's it.

    I think he was joking, see the smile face? He was making a facetious statement on how dumb many "officials" are andwho are "you" to think you are smarter then they are. Like "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

    It was in jest.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I think what you called doug's personal attack was more-so sarcasm, he has a nack for that.

    hense the smily face...

    Devery

  18. #18
    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    I apologize for my lack ofunderstanding of his humor or saracasm.
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

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    http://www.generalnewsgroup.com/

  19. #19
    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    The reply:





    Mr. LaVere - I will review the subject ordinance. Thank you for your interest.

    Peter M. Bade, Chief Legal Officer
    City of Flint Legal Department
    1101 S. Saginaw St.
    Flint, MI 48502
    810.766.7146


    Problem - City Web Site
    Comment: Subject: City of Flint & MI Firearms Preemption Laws Conflict
    Body:


    Looking trhough the city ordance I came accross this ordance. #31-20
    Under the 1990 state preemption law, this ordinance is unenforceable in
    regards to firearm and ammunition sales/distribution and is misleading to
    the people of Flint and other citizens. I am requesting you amend this
    unlawful ordinance within 90 days. Failure to amend these ordinances would
    be considered an act of malfeasance, as it willfully misinforms the public
    of what is and is not allowed in the City of Flint.

    Thank You for your prompt attention to this matter.

    Sincerely,

    Gordon LaVere

    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

    ************************************************** ********************

    http://www.generalnewsgroup.com/

  20. #20
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    Oh, and now you think you're smarter then our legislators?







    I can't believe the level of incompetence shown in our elected officials, yet they're still there.
    Unfortunately, the level of incompetence actually lies with those who elected the idiots in the first place.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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