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Thread: .25 Auto Ammo, HP or FMJ?

  1. #1
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    Which would you prefer?

    A little background...
    I OC my Glock 21SF, with my BUG a KelTec P-11 9mm. But I CC my P11 with my BUG a .25 auto. I came across some HP ammo for the .25 this past weekend and considered buying some but didn't know if it was worth the extra cost for such a diminuitive round or if it would be detrimental to use vs FMJ.

    Any opinions or facts on this?

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    I would buy the HP and see if it feeds reliably enough, and then hope & pray you never need to use it for defensive purposes. I almost think you would be better off with a knife, becuase the effective distance for use is about the same IMO.

    I had a .25 auto for a few months, I got it in a pawn shop for $30.00 back in the early to mid 1980's. I got rid of it shortly after I got hit with a ricochet from the gun, I was shooting an empty55-Gallon steel drum and the .25 would not penetrate it, the round bounced back and smacked me in the back of my hand and left a hell of a bruise. I also got hit in the legs a few times.

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    Yeah I know it's very limited in power and range. But a well placed shot in the throat could prove to be lethal. Hypothetically speaking of course. I'm just wondering if the HP's expand enough, or at all, to create more damage or if they're more of a novelty.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    lil dragon wrote:
    Yeah I know it's very limited in power and range. But a well placed shot in the throat could prove to be lethal. Hypothetically speaking of course. I'm just wondering if the HP's expand enough, or at all, to create more damage or if they're more of a novelty.
    I don't have any info on the .25's HP's effeciency... other than...

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/var25handload.html

    and a further 'net search for .25 ballistic gel performance should bring up more stuff..... because there is a wealth of ballistic and ballistic gel info on the 'net.

    But don't let the "Anything less than a .45 (a .40, a 9mm, a 380, ad nauseum) is a sissy round!!!" crowd get you down. A gun in the hand, regardless of how big the bullet is or isn't... is still better than a throwing very sharp, strong, and belligerent words.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Hollow points do a better job of energy transfer if they actually do expand. FMJ has a tendency to over penetrate. Since we are discussing.25ACP, which has negligible energy to transfer and no penetration to worry about, shot placement is all you have going for you anyway. A .25ACP beats "no gun" at least now and then.
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    Nah. I have a .25, .380, 9mm, .40, .45 to choose from, and each has it's own purpose and situation. I shoot them plus the AR every weekend to stay proficient. But I'd never used hollow points in the .25 before and considering I've always carried it in the back pocket or on the ankle as a backup and always used FMJ's, I want to gain an edge with it if at all possible. Besides, if I have my family with me, my 14yr old son can handle it quite well if the need arises.

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    FMJ. You really tend to sacrifice penetration for expansion with mouse calibers, it's just better to use something which is capable of reaching the vitals.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    .25 ACP? only for deep concealment and real up-close and personal (like maybe 10 feet or less). Hollowpoints probably wouldn't give much of an advantage, as someone said go for penetration with a FMJ. In fact, if you are going to go as low as a .25 then maybe you could do just as well with a .22LR snubbie. range practice and plinking would be mucho mas barrato into the bargain.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    The velocity from a .25 is not sufficient to produce reliable bullet expansion. Use FMJ for the best penetration you can get.

    However I should point out that if you ever shoot me with that thing and I find out about it I will beat you to death.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    i carry fmj in my .25 all my other guns get hollow points. .25 has questionable penetration i would rather have penetration than expansion in this caliber.

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    Heheh... I think everyone on this forum is safe from teh .25 cannon.

    Everyone is pretty much confirming what I was thinking and what I'd found on a site that did ballistics testing on .25 ammo. I think I'll stick with the FMJ.

    Thanks guys.

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    I have a Taurus PT-25, and although it is a fine pistol, I am of the opinion that the tiny tradeoff one gets in the .25 over .22 rimfire in bullet size is made up in cost savings and muzzle velocity (when using high-vel rounds) in a .22. If you want a "mouse gun", it just doesn't make much sense to pay 3-5 times as much for the rounds for 3/100 more bullet diameter, and 5-10 grains increased weight, especially when may high-vel .22s actually have higher muzzle velocity than most .25's, and can actually have better penetration when using JHP rounds.

    But truth be told, I wouldnt trust either of them to be effective in a defense situation, when I've got other much higher-power options like .380 auto, .38special, or even sub-compact .45acp's.

    I like my Taurus, but I'll be selling it soon. My Walther P22 is a much more fun plinker and costs a LOT less to shoot.

    And if I want a BUG, I'll be getting a .38 or .357 snubbie revolver. Small calibers are for paper, not defense.

    But if you are going to use your .25 as a BUG, use FMJ's. Better muzzle velocity and better penetration. Small calibers in small guns don't have enough mass or speed to have anny sort of appreciable expansion with JHPs...
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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Just two more things:

    (1) the first law of gunfighting: HAVE A GUN

    (2) Sumpin' is ALWAYS better than Nuttin'.

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    I go by this general rule of thumbI saw in a forumsome time ago (andagree with):

    "9mm and above, use HPs. Below 9mm use FMJs."

    The KISS principle applied...and applied well in this case.

    Also keep in mind that given the lower velocities of bullets leaving a short-barreled handgun (especially the small pocket guns or sub-compacts), HPs probably won't open up anyway, so why waste money buying them? And if they DON'T open, you aren't getting the results (terminal ballstcs) they are supposed to produce.

    With a .25, you need to use FMJs (for penetration) and be a very good shot sinceyou have to hit small CNS targets for best results. Shots in the torso with FMJs aren't the most productive...shots to the head with FMJs usually are.

    You have more "fudge factor" with larger calibersmaking torso hits and getting the job done, but with smaller calibers, you don't have that.

    Use FMJs and place your shots accordingly.

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    Just one more thought on the use of .22 caliber rimfire pistoles for self defense. One of the main reason the .25 was invented was because it is a centerfire cartridge. Centerfire designs are always more reliable than rimfire.

    So here is the issue. The guys who are saying that the .22 is better than the .25 are correct on ballistics, but there is more to this than that. The .22 long rifle has a lot going for it over the .25 auto, but the .25 cartridge is as reliable as any other centerfire round.

    I have burned a lot of .22 in my life, and I would say that I have had at least one misfire in every "brick" I have used. I am not willing to bet my life on a cartridge that might misfire once in every 500 rounds. That is not to say that I have not had centerfire misfire too, but just a lot less often.

    That said, if all I had was a .22 or a .25 I would use them. But my primary use would be as trade material for something better.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    If it were me I would use the FMJ just for better penetration and that would be only if that is all I had to carry.

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    In a bullet which doesn't penetrate all the way through the target and stops inside of it, it delivers all of it's energy whether it is an FMJ or a HP. I'd say chances are good that the .25 ACP even in FMJ form would not go all the way through someone and out the other side. It just uses the energy to go deeper rather than wider.

    Exit wounds cause more blood loss than entry wounds, so possibly giving up some energy to make an exit wound might actually be beneficial to using ALL of the energy to destroy a little bit more volume of tissue. But more important than exit wounds is the ability to penetrate to vitals. A shot damaging the CNS with a .25 ACP would likely stop a human as well as any other bullet could.

    I think FMJ will be the best in .25 ACP.

    For anyone who hasn't read the FBI's manual on Handgun Wounding Factors, I highly recommend it:
    http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Just one more thought on the use of .22 caliber rimfire pistoles for self defense. One of the main reason the .25 was invented was because it is a centerfire cartridge. Centerfire designs are always more reliable than rimfire.

    So here is the issue. The guys who are saying that the .22 is better than the .25 are correct on ballistics, but there is more to this than that. The .22 long rifle has a lot going for it over the .25 auto, but the .25 cartridge is as reliable as any other centerfire round.

    I have burned a lot of .22 in my life, and I would say that I have had at least one misfire in every "brick" I have used. I am not willing to bet my life on a cartridge that might misfire once in every 500 rounds. That is not to say that I have not had centerfire misfire too, but just a lot less often.

    That said, if all I had was a .22 or a .25 I would use them. But my primary use would be as trade material for something better.

    Regards
    True, the centerfire is usually more reliable, and you do get one more round in most guns that come with both. (The bobcat in .22 holds 7 if I recall and the one in .25 holds 8.)

    On the flip side, one advantage of .22lr though is that it is cheap and one can get in a lot of practice with it. One could probably fire 10 .22s for the price of one .25. And I think if one invested in higher quality .22s marketed for defense they'd probably get much better reliability than would be found in the federal or Remington bulk boxes, although the reliability may still not be as good as with the centerfire .25ACP.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Just one more thought on the use of .22 caliber rimfire pistoles for self defense. One of the main reason the .25 was invented was because it is a centerfire cartridge. Centerfire designs are always more reliable than rimfire.

    So here is the issue. The guys who are saying that the .22 is better than the .25 are correct on ballistics, but there is more to this than that. The .22 long rifle has a lot going for it over the .25 auto, but the .25 cartridge is as reliable as any other centerfire round.

    I have burned a lot of .22 in my life, and I would say that I have had at least one misfire in every "brick" I have used. I am not willing to bet my life on a cartridge that might misfire once in every 500 rounds. That is not to say that I have not had centerfire misfire too, but just a lot less often.

    That said, if all I had was a .22 or a .25 I would use them. But my primary use would be as trade material for something better.

    Regards
    True, the centerfire is usually more reliable, and you do get one more round in most guns that come with both. (The bobcat in .22 holds 7 if I recall and the one in .25 holds 8.)

    On the flip side, one advantage of .22lr though is that it is cheap and one can get in a lot of practice with it. One could probably fire 10 .22s for the price of one .25. And I think if one invested in higher quality .22s marketed for defense they'd probably get much better reliability than would be found in the federal or Remington bulk boxes, although the reliability may still not be as good as with the centerfire .25ACP.
    I would agree. Even if you decide to reload the .25 to offset the cost, they are so small that it is a real pain to hand load them.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    I wouldn't carry a .25 as my primary gun, but you're carrying it for a back-up. I think it's fine for a back-up gun. In addition, a .25 auto is the gun of choice for many of the gang-bangers and they are quite successful at killing each other with them.

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Some years ago I read a story about a pharmacist who emptied a magazine full of .25s into a guy who was robbing him. The guy had a heavy leather jacket on, with winter clothing underneath (up north, where winters are truly cold). He went to an ER and all they had to do was pick the slugs out from under the surface of his skin. Hollowpoints probably wouldn't have pierced his skin at all.

    If I had the choice, I would carry a small .22 with Stingers, which have way more muzzle energy than any .25. I have never had a dud with these. The stuff you buy in bargain-priced bricks is good for plinking only because they do have at least one stinker every 500 rounds.

    What kind of .25 do you carry? These days you can get mini-compact .380s in a package smaller and lighter than many .25s.

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    I have an older FIE. It was my grandfather's gun. More or less sentimental than anything. But it's very reliable. I've been looking for a Ruger LCP to replace it...

  23. #23
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    "Centerfire designs are always more reliable than rimfire. "

    That was then, this is now.

    Quality .22LR ammo-- such as what CCI makes for one example -- is just as reliable. Has been for decades now. So strike that ancient historyfrom the "talking points" list...

    -- John D.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    I used to have a Beretta .25A Double action, sold it for the same reason, my friend actually caught (with his hand) 2 of my rounds that had bounced off a tree and handed em to me as I was changing mags ... it was a Jaw dropper and the gun was sold that weekend.

    - HOWEVER, there have been some advancements in powder and bullets since then. I still feel the .25acp to be a lot less power than i would desire for a serious defensive round. If it was all i had, i would learn how to maximise it's potential with technique and ammo selection.

    To that: I used to run a little round called a "pellet tip" Winchester i think. It had good penetration, and would expand a little better than the hollow points. I found the hollow points unreliable, and cause feeding problems, the pellet tips did not. I would also look into some of the other advancements and maybe check them out. Solid copper with a cross cut, Glasier safety slugs, or any other innovative rounds. My thoughts with such a small round would be penetration over expansion. If the bullet cannot penetrate into the target, then expansion means nothing. So i bade you to draw your own conclusion, do some tests (soft potters clay is a great way to get an idea of what the bullet is doing - shoot it and cut it in half to see the cavity - squish it and reuse it). -- Again, It's a small round, know and work with it's limitations to maximise it's effect.

    Bat
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