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Thread: Open Carry in Schuylkill County, PA - Bad Encounter

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    So I ventured up to mining country to look for a house I was interested in purchasing.

    Being I am going to be looking at a post-foreclosure that, from what I was told from the bank, required a Writ of Possession and a visit from the sheriffs to have the property vacated, I decided to arm myself. I asked the bank prior to fax me the foreclosure papers. I also asked for verbal permission to carry on the premises. They said that if I am legally carrying by the laws of PA then I have permission.

    I get out of the car in front of the property. I pop the trunk and take out my handgun from the lockbox and attach my holster to my belt.

    I walk around the property and gain access through a lock provided by the bank. The property was clear. All their stuff was still in the house though so I remained vigilante.

    Upon exiting the property, I was met by a neighbor who was toting a shotgun. I immediately put my hand on my holster and my thumb of the retention snap. He had his shotgun pointed down in a somewhat safe but easy to lift and point manner. He asked me to identify myself and what I was doing on the property.

    I told him my first name and that I am a potential buyer of the property and that I have permission from the bank to be here. I asked if he was an LEO. He said no. He then went on about how the owner still comes back and that no one wants me on this property.

    At this point, I identified this encounter as hostile. I told the neighbor that I was planning on leaving after taking some pictures. Yet, if he does not secure his long gun, he will be having a very bad day. He then gets angry and starts yelling at me about how he is right and I am wrong. I then tried my best, calmly, to explain to him that this property has been foreclosed upon. I had the paperwork in my hand to prove it and that I have verbal permission to be on this property and to carry on this property. I asked the neighbor if he had contacted the bank on his own accord and requested to have permission to be on the property. He said he didn't need permission.

    At this point, I wanted to continue on my way to my car and get my camera, take some pictures, then be on my way. I told the neighbor these were my intentions and that if he was detaining me and would not allow me to pass, this was going to be a bigger problem.

    I showed him that my cell phone was in my left hand. My right hand still on my holster. I said to him that if he doesn't secure his long gun, and its the last time I am asking, I am going to hold down 9 on my phone and click on speaker and I will summon an LEO to make you secure your long gun.

    This basically pissed him off. As he started ranting and raving about how I am trying to be a wannabe cop, I tookj my thumb and undid the retention clip. It was like a pin dropped. He heard it the clip break open and he shut right up.

    I said to him that I didn't want any trouble but if I have to draw I would. At that point, he finally stood down. He took a few steps back and secured his long gun by unloading it. I told him give me 10 minutes and I would be off and that it would be a win win situation. He said that was fine and walked off the property. I came back with the camera and did what I had to do then left.

    I decided that it was not prudent to contact an LEO about it as it was my word against his and well neither one of us actually pointed their gun. But in the end, I don't want to buy the property. That encounter was bulls*** and uncalled for.




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    And the first person to notify the police and inform them of their version is the winner.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Statkowski wrote:
    And the first person to notify the police and inform them of their version is the winner.
    +1

    Also would notify the bank for their general info as well as their safety.

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    So you were carrying a firearm without a license in a vehicle?

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    Are you seriously considering purchasing that property with a neighbor like that?

    In my humble opinion that isjust asking for more real trouble in the future.

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    a. He never mentioned anything about having or not having an LTCF. He did, on the other hand, inform the bank he was legal to carry.

    b. He did state he wasn't going to purchase the property.

    c. Absent any information to the contrary about the neighborhood, what's wrong with having neighbors willing to defend your property with their firearms?

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    Statkowski wrote:
    a. He never mentioned anything about having or not having an LTCF. He did, on the other hand, inform the bank he was legal to carry.
    I merely ask because he wasn't carrying on him in the vehicle, making me think maybe he was only legal on foot, aka no license.

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    Regular Member MatieA's Avatar
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    So you were carrying a firearm without a license in a vehicle?
    The following is copy/pasted from OP:

    "I pop the trunk and take out my handgun from the lockbox and attach my holster to my belt."

    Now exactly what about that do you think is illegal?
    If you do not test yourself every single day,
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    MatieA wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    So you were carrying a firearm without a license in a vehicle?
    The following is copy/pasted from OP:

    "I pop the trunk and take out my handgun from the lockbox and attach my holster to my belt."

    Now exactly what about that do you think is illegal?
    Because if he doesn't have a LTCF or a license to carry from another state, that still isn't a legal way to transport a handgun in a vehicle unless you're going to the range, gunsmith, or hunting, or returning from the above, here in PA.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    I'd like to add there was nothing unlawful about the neighbor toting his long gun long as the weapon is pointing in a safe direction. There are no laws in PA which make open carry of a long gun unlawful while on foot.

    Armond is correct, vehicle transport is unlawful without a LTCF or a license from any other state when not in a city of first class unless the person falls within one of the exceptions.
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    Regular Member MatieA's Avatar
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    It sounds to me that he was covered under the Federal firearms transportation act, by having it in the trucnk in a locked box. Therefore it stands to reason that he did nothing illegal.
    If you do not test yourself every single day,
    then it is just another wasted day.
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    MatieA wrote:
    It sounds to me that he was covered under the Federal firearms transportation act, by having it in the trucnk in a locked box. Therefore it stands to reason that he did nothing illegal.
    You are absolutely dead wrong on that one, as he wouldn't be legal to step out of his vehicle, strap his gun on, OC, then put it back in the trunk when he was done and drive again in PA. It has to be 100% legal on both ends for that to apply.

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    Penalty Flags!

    For Reese and Roo.

    For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

    Forum Rule #7:

    If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Armond Reese wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Penalty Flags!

    For Reese and Roo.

    For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

    Forum Rule #7:

    If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


    QFT
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Armond Reese wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Penalty Flags!

    For Reese and Roo.

    For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

    Forum Rule #7:

    If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.



    Mr. Reese, in addition to Citizen pointing out Forum Rule #7 I'd also like to direct your attention to Forum Rule #3:

    Keep the profanity to a minimum - and then, after you find yourselves using it, go back after you have reflected and edit it out, especially those F-Bombs! Though this area of the web site is a bit of free speech area, the threads necessarily reflect upon the open carry movement as the press and general public do read our postings. Please go back and search your posts and edit out those F-bombs, thanks!

    Looking at your user info, you've been here a little over a month so I'll help you out by linking you to the complete list of forum rules so you can become better acquainted: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

    Regards, NSL


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    MatieA wrote:
    It sounds to me that he was covered under the Federal firearms transportation act, by having it in the trucnk in a locked box. Therefore it stands to reason that he did nothing illegal.
    Matie, that only applies to "interstate" travel, meaning that your trip starts in one state and ends in another (and may or may not pass through other states along the way). Also, in order to be relevant, you must be permitted to lawfully possess the firearm in both the originating state as well as the destination.

    That means I cannot leave PA and travel into MD and be covered by federal law, as it is unlawful for me to possess a handgun in MD. If I pass through MD and end my trip in WV or VA, I am covered, because I can lawfully possess a handgun in either of those states.

    "Intrastate" travel (meaning you remain in one state) is not covered under federal transport regulations, and as already noted, PA law does prohibit "carry in a vehicle" unless traveling directly between specifically enumerated destinations/activities (See Pa Title 18,§6106)

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Penalty Flags!

    For Reese and Roo.

    For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

    Forum Rule #7:

    If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.



    Mr. Reese, in addition to Citizen pointing out Forum Rule #7 I'd also like to direct your attention to Forum Rule #3:

    Keep the profanity to a minimum - and then, after you find yourselves using it, go back after you have reflected and edit it out, especially those F-Bombs! Though this area of the web site is a bit of free speech area, the threads necessarily reflect upon the open carry movement as the press and general public do read our postings. Please go back and search your posts and edit out those F-bombs, thanks!

    Looking at your user info, you've been here a little over a month so I'll help you out by linking you to the complete list of forum rules so you can become better acquainted: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

    Regards, NSL
    It's a shame there's no rule against backseat moderating because damn.

  18. #18
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Penalty Flags!

    For Reese and Roo.

    For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

    Forum Rule #7:

    If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.



    Mr. Reese, in addition to Citizen pointing out Forum Rule #7 I'd also like to direct your attention to Forum Rule #3:

    Keep the profanity to a minimum - and then, after you find yourselves using it, go back after you have reflected and edit it out, especially those F-Bombs! Though this area of the web site is a bit of free speech area, the threads necessarily reflect upon the open carry movement as the press and general public do read our postings. Please go back and search your posts and edit out those F-bombs, thanks!

    Looking at your user info, you've been here a little over a month so I'll help you out by linking you to the complete list of forum rules so you can become better acquainted: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

    Regards, NSL
    It's a shame there's no rule against backseat moderating because damn.
    There is not only no rule against it - it is actively encouraged as it reduces moderator's overload.

    That and we are cognizant that this forum is read by politicians, journalists as well as gunnys, wives and children. We are in the public eye; therefore, those that cannot/do not abide by the rules may find their stay here brief.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MatieA's Avatar
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    gnbrotz wrote:
    MatieA wrote:
    It sounds to me that he was covered under the Federal firearms transportation act, by having it in the trucnk in a locked box. Therefore it stands to reason that he did nothing illegal.
    Matie, that only applies to "interstate" travel, meaning that your trip starts in one state and ends in another (and may or may not pass through other states along the way). Also, in order to be relevant, you must be permitted to lawfully possess the firearm in both the originating state as well as the destination.

    That means I cannot leave PA and travel into MD and be covered by federal law, as it is unlawful for me to possess a handgun in MD. If I pass through MD and end my trip in WV or VA, I am covered, because I can lawfully possess a handgun in either of those states.

    "Intrastate" travel (meaning you remain in one state) is not covered under federal transport regulations, and as already noted, PA law does prohibit "carry in a vehicle" unless traveling directly between specifically enumerated destinations/activities (See Pa Title 18,§6106)
    Well, I am going to concede to your point althoughI will say in my defensethat I had ass-u-me d that the OP had traveled from Jersey to PA which would have made my point valid ( Ibelieved). I have been wrong before and I'm sure it will happen again.



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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Penalty Flags!

    For Reese and Roo.

    For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

    Forum Rule #7:

    If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.



    Mr. Reese, in addition to Citizen pointing out Forum Rule #7 I'd also like to direct your attention to Forum Rule #3:

    Keep the profanity to a minimum - and then, after you find yourselves using it, go back after you have reflected and edit it out, especially those F-Bombs! Though this area of the web site is a bit of free speech area, the threads necessarily reflect upon the open carry movement as the press and general public do read our postings. Please go back and search your posts and edit out those F-bombs, thanks!

    Looking at your user info, you've been here a little over a month so I'll help you out by linking you to the complete list of forum rules so you can become better acquainted: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

    Regards, NSL
    It's a shame there's no rule against backseat moderating because damn.
    There is not only no rule against it - it is actively encouraged as it reduces moderator's overload.

    That and we are cognizant that this forum is read by politicians, journalists as well as gunnys, wives and children. We are in the public eye; therefore, those that cannot/do not abide by the rules may find their stay here brief.

    Yata hey
    Individuals speak for themselves. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

    On top of that, the internet isn't a "nice place," so "children" should always be supervised while using it. Failure to do so is on the parent, not on the internet.

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    I'd like to add there was nothing unlawful about the neighbor toting his long gun long as the weapon is pointing in a safe direction. There are no laws in PA which make open carry of a long gun unlawful while on foot.

    Armond is correct, vehicle transport is unlawful without a LTCF or a license from any other state when not in a city of first class unless the person falls within one of the exceptions.
    I think this foolish "gentleman" could easily be convict for brandishing in just about any State due to the totality of the facts. He carried a firearm in his hands onto property that wasn't his , to confront another person rather hostilely.

    If the police was called I believe Mr. Shotgun would have been arrested and convicted. I'm just glad the idiot didn't point it at the house hunter. The bank needs to know this nut is doing this. If he is this concerned about someone else's property he should just call the police, not play sheriff. The guy is going to get himself killed.

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    Armond Reese wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    It's a shame there's no rule against backseat moderating because damn.
    There is not only no rule against it - it is actively encouraged as it reduces moderator's overload.

    That and we are cognizant that this forum is read by politicians, journalists as well as gunnys, wives and children. We are in the public eye; therefore, those that cannot/do not abide by the rules may find their stay here brief.

    Yata hey
    Individuals speak for themselves. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

    On top of that, the internet isn't a "nice place," so "children" should always be supervised while using it. Failure to do so is on the parent, not on the internet.
    We are not talking about the internet. This is about OCDO guidelines/rules only.

    A responsible user will prudently select the manner and language in which they post.

    That should not be too difficult.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Penalty Flags!

    For Reese and Roo.

    For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

    Forum Rule #7:

    If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.



    Mr. Reese, in addition to Citizen pointing out Forum Rule #7 I'd also like to direct your attention to Forum Rule #3:

    Keep the profanity to a minimum - and then, after you find yourselves using it, go back after you have reflected and edit it out, especially those F-Bombs! Though this area of the web site is a bit of free speech area, the threads necessarily reflect upon the open carry movement as the press and general public do read our postings. Please go back and search your posts and edit out those F-bombs, thanks!

    Looking at your user info, you've been here a little over a month so I'll help you out by linking you to the complete list of forum rules so you can become better acquainted: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

    Regards, NSL
    It's a shame there's no rule against backseat moderating because damn.
    There is not only no rule against it - it is actively encouraged as it reduces moderator's overload.

    That and we are cognizant that this forum is read by politicians, journalists as well as gunnys, wives and children. We are in the public eye; therefore, those that cannot/do not abide by the rules may find their stay here brief.

    Yata hey
    Individuals speak for themselves. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

    On top of that, the internet isn't a "nice place," so "children" should always be supervised while using it. Failure to do so is on the parent, not on the internet.
    While the internet isn't necessarily a nice place, we try to keep OCDO a nice place.

    The primary way we do that is through self control and self moderation.

    If an individual member"reminds" a new member of the rules, and the new member declines to take the advice to apply self control and obey the rules, then the real moderators are contacted and they handle the situation as they see fit.

  24. #24
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    It's pretty bad when someone from North Carolina is the only person with the gumption and resources to actually cite the PA Statutes to settle this issue... :shock:

    The OP was in violation. Although he did not admit to not having a PA LTCF, it is a safe assumption, since he says he was transporting it in the trunk, and not on his hip while driving. He admitted to driving to this property to look at it, and transporting his firearm in his trunk. Technically, he broke the law in PA, and committed either a Felony of the Third Degree (if he was judged in this situation to have committed some other offense), or a misdemeanor of the first degree (if he was determined to have not committed any other offense). The only way he could, under PA law, OC without a permit is if he OC'd his firearm on foot, from his residence to this property.

    He was NOT covered under the FFTA, because his trip started and ended in a single state-PA. The FFTA only covers INTER-state transport, which means transport from one state to (or through) another state. It DOES NOT cover transport inside a single state. Intrastate transport can be (and often is) regulated by specific statutes of that particular state. PA is one of those states that has restrictive intrastate transport regulations. You MUST have a PA LTCF to transport a handgun inside PA unless you are transporting it between your residence and one of the "exempted locations".

    See the PA Statute citations below for a detailed explanation of WHAT he did wrong...
    18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses
    (a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.
    Although OC is legal in PA without any sort of permit (except in a "city of the first class", i.e. Philadelphia), it would be difficult to do this unless you only OC'd while on foot, departing from your place of residence. Transporting a handgun intrastate, unless you are going to one of the below-exempted locations, is not legal unless you have a PA LTCF....
    18 Pa.C.S. § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
    (a) Offense defined.—
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

    (b) Exceptions.—The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

    (4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.
    Know the law, folks. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not knowing the law in your state of residence if you are going to be part of the active OC movement. And if you plan on OCing (or transporting a firearm in your vehicle) outside your state of residence, you'd better spend some serious time on the internet and on the phone, and learn those other state's laws too. Ignorance of the law is a sure ticket to jail...

    I regularly travel between NC, VA, MD, PA, and WV. I reside in NC, and have a "secondary residence" in MD. I've spend literally hundreds of hours over the last 6 months researching the laws in all these states online, making calls to the States Attorneys General offices in all these states, and State Police HQ's, and talking FTF with LEOs in each of these states with regards to their interpretations of the laws, and their attitutes toward OC, CC, and vehicular transport in their states. I'm no expert (and IANAL) but I think I've got a pretty good handle on these 5 states.

    And believe me, the OP didn't just break the law, he committed either a MISDEMEANOR or a FELONY under PA law (depending on if he was judged to have committed any other violations at that time) by transporting his firearm to this property without holding a PA LTCF.

    Just another reason to get a CHP/LTCF. I keep saying over and over again, all over this forum, if you've got the "permit" it makes life a WHOLE lot easier.

    End of discussion...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    Dreamer wrote:
    It's pretty bad when someone from North Carolina is the only person with the gumption and resources to actually cite the PA Statutes to settle this issue... :shock:
    Appreciate the in depth response Dreamer - easy to comprehend too.

    There is a fine group of knowledgeable activists in Pa, unfortunately they spend little time on this forum electing to concentrate on PaFOA - a great site BTW.
    http://www.pafoa.org/

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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