Open Carry in Schuylkill County, PA - Bad Encounter

no carry permit ? · Dec 8, 2009

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insane.kangaroo wrote:

I'd like to add there was nothing unlawful about the neighbor toting his long gun long as the weapon is pointing in a safe direction. There are no laws in PA which make open carry of a long gun unlawful while on foot.

Armond is correct, vehicle transport is unlawful without a LTCF or a license from any other state when not in a city of first class unless the person falls within one of the exceptions.

I think this foolish "gentleman" could easily be convict for brandishing in just about any State due to the totality of the facts. He carried a firearm in his hands onto property that wasn't his , to confront another person rather hostilely.

If the police was called I believe Mr. Shotgun would have been arrested and convicted. I'm just glad the idiot didn't point it at the house hunter. The bank needs to know this nut is doing this. If he is this concerned about someone else's property he should just call the police, not play sheriff. The guy is going to get himself killed.

Grapeshot · Dec 8, 2009

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Armond Reese wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

Armond Reese wrote:

It's a shame there's no rule against backseat moderating because damn.

Click to expand...

There is not only no rule against it - it is actively encouraged as it reduces moderator's overload.

That and we are cognizant that this forum is read by politicians, journalists as well as gunnys, wives and children. We are in the public eye; therefore, those that cannot/do not abide by the rules may find their stay here brief.

Yata hey

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Individuals speak for themselves. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

On top of that, the internet isn't a "nice place," so "children" should always be supervised while using it. Failure to do so is on the parent, not on the internet.

We are not talking about the internet. This is about OCDO guidelines/rules only.

A responsible user will prudently select the manner and language in which they post.

That should not be too difficult.

Yata hey

Decoligny · Dec 8, 2009

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Armond Reese wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

Armond Reese wrote:

nakedshoplifter wrote:

Armond Reese wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Penalty Flags!

For Reese and Roo.

For making statements about the PA law on carrying in a car with/without an LTCF withoutcites or quotes.

Forum Rule #7:

If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

Click to expand...

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Mr. Reese, in addition to Citizen pointing out Forum Rule #7 I'd also like to direct your attention to Forum Rule #3:

Keep the profanity to a minimum - and then, after you find yourselves using it, go back after you have reflected and edit it out, especially those F-Bombs! Though this area of the web site is a bit of free speech area, the threads necessarily reflect upon the open carry movement as the press and general public do read our postings. Please go back and search your posts and edit out those F-bombs, thanks!

Looking at your user info, you've been here a little over a month so I'll help you out by linking you to the complete list of forum rules so you can become better acquainted: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

Regards, NSL

Click to expand...

It's a shame there's no rule against backseat moderating because damn.

Click to expand...

There is not only no rule against it - it is actively encouraged as it reduces moderator's overload.

That and we are cognizant that this forum is read by politicians, journalists as well as gunnys, wives and children. We are in the public eye; therefore, those that cannot/do not abide by the rules may find their stay here brief.

Yata hey

Click to expand...

Individuals speak for themselves. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

On top of that, the internet isn't a "nice place," so "children" should always be supervised while using it. Failure to do so is on the parent, not on the internet.

While the internet isn't necessarily a nice place, we try to keep OCDO a nice place.

The primary way we do that is through self control and self moderation.

If an individual member"reminds" a new member of the rules, and the new member declines to take the advice to apply self control and obey the rules, then the real moderators are contacted and they handle the situation as they see fit.

Dreamer · Dec 8, 2009

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It's pretty bad when someone from North Carolina is the only person with the gumption and resources to actually cite the PA Statutes to settle this issue... :shock:

The OP was in violation. Although he did not admit to not having a PA LTCF, it is a safe assumption, since he says he was transporting it in the trunk, and not on his hip while driving. He admitted to driving to this property to look at it, and transporting his firearm in his trunk. Technically, he broke the law in PA, and committed either a Felony of the Third Degree (if he was judged in this situation to have committed some other offense), or a misdemeanor of the first degree (if he was determined to have not committed any other offense). The only way he could, under PA law, OC without a permit is if he OC'd his firearm on foot, from his residence to this property.

He was NOT covered under the FFTA, because his trip started and ended in a single state-PA. The FFTA only covers INTER-state transport, which means transport from one state to (or through) another state. It DOES NOT cover transport inside a single state. Intrastate transport can be (and often is) regulated by specific statutes of that particular state. PA is one of those states that has restrictive intrastate transport regulations. You MUST have a PA LTCF to transport a handgun inside PA unless you are transporting it between your residence and one of the "exempted locations".

See the PA Statute citations below for a detailed explanation of WHAT he did wrong...

18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses

(a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

Although OC is legal in PA without any sort of permit (except in a "city of the first class", i.e. Philadelphia), it would be difficult to do this unless you only OC'd while on foot, departing from your place of residence. Transporting a handgun intrastate, unless you are going to one of the below-exempted locations, is not legal unless you have a PA LTCF....

18 Pa.C.S. § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.—
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(b) Exceptions.—The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.

Know the law, folks. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not knowing the law in your state of residence if you are going to be part of the active OC movement. And if you plan on OCing (or transporting a firearm in your vehicle) outside your state of residence, you'd better spend some serious time on the internet and on the phone, and learn those other state's laws too. Ignorance of the law is a sure ticket to jail...

I regularly travel between NC, VA, MD, PA, and WV. I reside in NC, and have a "secondary residence" in MD. I've spend literally hundreds of hours over the last 6 months researching the laws in all these states online, making calls to the States Attorneys General offices in all these states, and State Police HQ's, and talking FTF with LEOs in each of these states with regards to their interpretations of the laws, and their attitutes toward OC, CC, and vehicular transport in their states. I'm no expert (and IANAL) but I think I've got a pretty good handle on these 5 states.

And believe me, the OP didn't just break the law, he committed either a MISDEMEANOR or a FELONY under PA law (depending on if he was judged to have committed any other violations at that time) by transporting his firearm to this property without holding a PA LTCF.

Just another reason to get a CHP/LTCF. I keep saying over and over again, all over this forum, if you've got the "permit" it makes life a WHOLE lot easier.

End of discussion...

Grapeshot · Dec 9, 2009

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Dreamer wrote:

It's pretty bad when someone from North Carolina is the only person with the gumption and resources to actually cite the PA Statutes to settle this issue... :shock:

Appreciate the in depth response Dreamer - easy to comprehend too.

There is a fine group of knowledgeable activists in Pa, unfortunately they spend little time on this forum electing to concentrate on PaFOA - a great site BTW.
http://www.pafoa.org/

Yata hey

Armond Reese · Dec 9, 2009

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I dunno, OCDO may be full of a bunch of crazies, but PAFOA sets the standard...

McX · Dec 11, 2009

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.

Superlite27 · Dec 11, 2009

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So where's the pic of the guy with the shotgun?

(You said you had your camera.)

Are you gonna buy the house?

Are the neighbors invited to the house warming party?

Grapeshot · Dec 11, 2009

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McX wrote:

We carry at our shop, and everyone knows it. I'm just waiting for someone, less than honest, who tries to pull a fast one on me, or at the shop, and then decides to run screaming to the Police, and claim I brandished, when I didn't. Figure it's just a matter of time until someone tries to play this one.

Keep the security cam equipment in good repair.

Yata hey

jahwarrior · Dec 14, 2009

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thejax wrote:

So I ventured up to mining country to look for a house I was interested in purchasing.

Being I am going to be looking at a post-foreclosure that, from what I was told from the bank, required a Writ of Possession and a visit from the sheriffs to have the property vacated, I decided to arm myself. I asked the bank prior to fax me the foreclosure papers. I also asked for verbal permission to carry on the premises. They said that if I am legally carrying by the laws of PA then I have permission.

I get out of the car in front of the property. I pop the trunk and take out my handgun from the lockbox and attach my holster to my belt.

I walk around the property and gain access through a lock provided by the bank. The property was clear. All their stuff was still in the house though so I remained vigilante.

Upon exiting the property, I was met by a neighbor who was toting a shotgun. I immediately put my hand on my holster and my thumb of the retention snap. He had his shotgun pointed down in a somewhat safe but easy to lift and point manner. He asked me to identify myself and what I was doing on the property.

I told him my first name and that I am a potential buyer of the property and that I have permission from the bank to be here. I asked if he was an LEO. He said no. He then went on about how the owner still comes back and that no one wants me on this property.

At this point, I identified this encounter as hostile. I told the neighbor that I was planning on leaving after taking some pictures. Yet, if he does not secure his long gun, he will be having a very bad day. He then gets angry and starts yelling at me about how he is right and I am wrong. I then tried my best, calmly, to explain to him that this property has been foreclosed upon. I had the paperwork in my hand to prove it and that I have verbal permission to be on this property and to carry on this property. I asked the neighbor if he had contacted the bank on his own accord and requested to have permission to be on the property. He said he didn't need permission.

At this point, I wanted to continue on my way to my car and get my camera, take some pictures, then be on my way. I told the neighbor these were my intentions and that if he was detaining me and would not allow me to pass, this was going to be a bigger problem.

I showed him that my cell phone was in my left hand. My right hand still on my holster. I said to him that if he doesn't secure his long gun, and its the last time I am asking, I am going to hold down 9 on my phone and click on speaker and I will summon an LEO to make you secure your long gun.

This basically pissed him off. As he started ranting and raving about how I am trying to be a wannabe cop, I tookj my thumb and undid the retention clip. It was like a pin dropped. He heard it the clip break open and he shut right up.

I said to him that I didn't want any trouble but if I have to draw I would. At that point, he finally stood down. He took a few steps back and secured his long gun by unloading it. I told him give me 10 minutes and I would be off and that it would be a win win situation. He said that was fine and walked off the property. I came back with the camera and did what I had to do then left.

I decided that it was not prudent to contact an LEO about it as it was my word against his and well neither one of us actually pointed their gun. But in the end, I don't want to buy the property. That encounter was bulls*** and uncalled for.

you effed up, buddy. thing didn't get hostile until you made them that way. i understand being prepared for hostilities, but you were:

#1, carrying illegally.

#2, instead of leaving, to defuse the situation, you remained, and escalated a situation you didn't need to.

#2, you didn't call for LEO, which you should have. i think the reality is you knew you effed up, and if any LEO showed up, you'd be in a world of shit.

every single move you made made a bad situation worse. if i were Mr. Shotgun, you would've been the one to have a bad day, the second you put your hand on your weapon. if i saw a strange man on my neighbor's property, nosing around, i'd investigate. who's to saw that he wasn't in fear for his life when you snapped of the thumb strap? that was an idiot thing to do.

get your head straight before coming back to PA.

thejax · Dec 17, 2009

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Hi everyone.

Its crazy how this post went in my absence.

I just want to say a few things to clear it up.

1) I have a FL CCW
2) My gun was unloaded and in a lockbox anyway, in my trunk.
3) I am a NJ Resident with an FID but not a NJ LTCF
4) I only possess long guns in NJ for the obvious reason.
5) I have property in PA and store my handguns there as I did not transfer them to NJ. I obviously stopped there first during my trip.

I just love how I was threatened, practically at gun point, and I just wanted to share the story, and some of you guys dissected and analyzed every word I say to turn this around like I'm the bad guy.

I appreciate everyone putting their time in to cite PA Law for some readers of the forum that may not be knowledgeable.

I just look at it as, yes, maybe I should of identified that I was legal. I felt, in my opinion, that wasn't the basis of the story. I felt, it should be assumed if I am knowledgeable in the laws and if not, well thats my own darn fault.

And I did not call the cops because I just anted to move on with my life and nothing came about the incident.

And for the guy who said I shouldn't of unsnapped my holster, keep this in mind. The guy was waving the gun back and forth towards the ground, raising it and lowering it, as he was yelling and screaming at me over something that a normal and prudent person would consider nonsense. He didn't seem to be of right mind as he was armed and I was armed and he was making it more hostile. I would of drew my weapon if he continued as he was also blocking my exit and when I took a few steps back he did walk towards me. I would think that anyone else would have also got their handgun ready incase they needed to draw as well. Nothing wrong with that. The last thing I want to do it screw around with my retention snap while a crazy guy is about to shoot me.

We all share a purpose here and I come in peace. Lets keep this a friendly and informative place. Thats all I am saying.

Grapeshot · Dec 17, 2009

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thejax wrote:

Hi everyone.

Its crazy how this post went in my absence.

I just want to say a few things to clear it up.

1) I have a FL CCW
2) My gun was unloaded and in a lockbox anyway, in my trunk.
3) I am a NJ Resident with an FID but not a NJ LTCF
4) I only possess long guns in NJ for the obvious reason.
5) I have property in PA and store my handguns there as I did not transfer them to NJ. I obviously stopped there first during my trip.

I just love how I was threatened, practically at gun point, and I just wanted to share the story, and some of you guys dissected and analyzed every word I say to turn this around like I'm the bad guy.

I appreciate everyone putting their time in to cite PA Law for some readers of the forum that may not be knowledgeable.

I just look at it as, yes, maybe I should of identified that I was legal. I felt, in my opinion, that wasn't the basis of the story. I felt, it should be assumed if I am knowledgeable in the laws and if not, well thats my own darn fault.

And I did not call the cops because I just anted to move on with my life and nothing came about the incident.

And for the guy who said I shouldn't of unsnapped my holster, keep this in mind. The guy was waving the gun back and forth towards the ground, raising it and lowering it, as he was yelling and screaming at me over something that a normal and prudent person would consider nonsense. He didn't seem to be of right mind as he was armed and I was armed and he was making it more hostile. I would of drew my weapon if he continued as he was also blocking my exit and when I took a few steps back he did walk towards me. I would think that anyone else would have also got their handgun ready incase they needed to draw as well. Nothing wrong with that. The last thing I want to do it screw around with my retention snap while a crazy guy is about to shoot me.

We all share a purpose here and I come in peace. Lets keep this a friendly and informative place. Thats all I am saying.

Appreciate that no one was hurt but IMO you were threaten with deadly force - I would have reported the incident. As has been stated many times before here, most often the first reporting person wins - CYA.

All of this is intended as friendly information - some post just convey it differently.

If you have a Fl. permit, you do not need to secure your gun in the trunk.

Pa.C.S. § 6106(b)(11), available at http://paopencarry.org/uniform-firearms-act#6106

"11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state."

BTW - I just learned the above yesterday that it doesn't have to be a Pa. reciprocal state for vehicle carry.

Yata hey

jahwarrior · Dec 17, 2009

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thejax wrote:

Hi everyone.

Its crazy how this post went in my absence.

I just want to say a few things to clear it up.

1) I have a FL CCW
2) My gun was unloaded and in a lockbox anyway, in my trunk.
3) I am a NJ Resident with an FID but not a NJ LTCF
4) I only possess long guns in NJ for the obvious reason.
5) I have property in PA and store my handguns there as I did not transfer them to NJ. I obviously stopped there first during my trip.

I just love how I was threatened, practically at gun point, and I just wanted to share the story, and some of you guys dissected and analyzed every word I say to turn this around like I'm the bad guy.

I appreciate everyone putting their time in to cite PA Law for some readers of the forum that may not be knowledgeable.

I just look at it as, yes, maybe I should of identified that I was legal. I felt, in my opinion, that wasn't the basis of the story. I felt, it should be assumed if I am knowledgeable in the laws and if not, well thats my own darn fault.

And I did not call the cops because I just anted to move on with my life and nothing came about the incident.

And for the guy who said I shouldn't of unsnapped my holster, keep this in mind. The guy was waving the gun back and forth towards the ground, raising it and lowering it, as he was yelling and screaming at me over something that a normal and prudent person would consider nonsense. He didn't seem to be of right mind as he was armed and I was armed and he was making it more hostile. I would of drew my weapon if he continued as he was also blocking my exit and when I took a few steps back he did walk towards me. I would think that anyone else would have also got their handgun ready incase they needed to draw as well. Nothing wrong with that. The last thing I want to do it screw around with my retention snap while a crazy guy is about to shoot me.

We all share a purpose here and I come in peace. Lets keep this a friendly and informative place. Thats all I am saying.

you should have mentioned all this in your original post. i still think you didn't help matters by staying there; if i'm on someone's property, and someone asks me to leave, i will. i'll also call the police when i feel it's safe for me to do so. and that's the most important part: you really should have contacted the police. if this man was as threatening as you claim, he might be a danger to not only you, but anyone else he comes across. not calling 91 was irresponsible. i'm just glad you were legally carrying.

pax

Pa. Patriot · Dec 19, 2009

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Just to add another layer of conversation, it is not always in ones best interest to call the police, even when you have committed no crime.

IOW: Calling the police is not always to your benefit. Introducing people of LE authority, who by default will look for anything indicating wrong doing (investigate), may end up with the caller being faced with unintended and unforeseeable complications.

I'm not saying the OP should not have called LE, just that it is not an automatic action as some suggest.

jahwarrior · Dec 19, 2009

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Pa. Patriot wrote:

Just to add another layer of conversation, it is not always in ones best interest to call the police, even when you have committed no crime.

IOW: Calling the police is not always to your benefit. Introducing people of LE authority, who by default will look for anything indicating wrong doing (investigate), may end up with the caller being faced with unintended and unforeseeable complications.

I'm not saying the OP should not have called LE, just that it is not an automatic action as some suggest.

true enough; i don't like calling the police unless it's absolutely necessary, but in this case, i'd rather be the one calling, before the other guy does it first.

Thos.Jefferson · Dec 20, 2009

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Sounds like a pretty hairy encounter. Makes one see the human side of this economic crisis We are in. The neighbor was only trying to protect his neighbors' interests even if he was an idiot and at least he did dis-arm in the end(I wouldn't have personally).

Who knows how long the guy had lived next to the previous owner? could've been best friends or even family. I think the OP did well in defusing the situation and even better by not bringing the the gov't. into the fray.

Why is it that so many folks want to talk about freedom and rights but at the first little sign of trouble want to "CALL THE LAW!" ? Even going so far as to say that someone is being irresponsible for not calling them? Unbelievable!

I say kudos sir! Thank God no one lost there life ! and "We don't need no stinking government!"

Grapeshot · Dec 20, 2009

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Thos.Jefferson wrote:

Sounds like a pretty hairy encounter. Makes one see the human side of this economic crisis We are in. The neighbor was only trying to protect his neighbors' interests even if he was an idiot and at least he did dis-arm in the end(I wouldn't have personally).

Who knows how long the guy had lived next to the previous owner? could've been best friends or even family. I think the OP did well in defusing the situation and even better by not bringing the the gov't. into the fray.

Why is it that so many folks want to talk about freedom and rights but at the first little sign of trouble want to "CALL THE LAW!" ? Even going so far as to say that someone is being irresponsible for not calling them? Unbelievable!

I say kudos sir! Thank God no one lost there life ! and "We don't need no stinking government!"

Lack of government is anarchy - not first on my list. :?

Yata hey

theschultz · Dec 21, 2009

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TheJax

Good job overall.

The replies were a bit heavy, and presumtive (or is it assumptive?).

Unsnapping was a good idea. Why carry otherwise?

Dave

thejax · Dec 22, 2009

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Thanks everybody for all your replies and comments on my encounter.

I feel, everyone would of or could of handled this differently. This is the way I handled it.

As to having the FL CCW and the gun in my trunk, this is a preference, though I am aware of my privileges under the law. I choose to carry(openly preferred) when I feel there is a need. I applaud anyone that wants to carry legally for any reason. But for me, I don't always carry. If I am transporting a handgun legally in my car, I prefer to have it in the trunk in my lockbox. If I am driving in PA and I happen to be carjacked at gunpoint, then the gun wouldn't do me much good in the trunk, I agree. I would have no access to it and thats my own darn fault.

I feel this is how I choose to transport it. If I get pulled over, the last thing I want to hear is why do I have a loaded gun within my reach and control in my car, whether I have a CCW/LTCF or not.

But thanks for inquiring about how I transport. I am happy how this whole post turned out and want to wish everyone a happy holiday.

Grapeshot · Dec 22, 2009

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thejax wrote:

Thanks everybody for all your replies and comments on my encounter.

I feel, everyone would of or could of handled this differently. This is the way I handled it.

As to having the FL CCW and the gun in my trunk, this is a preference, though I am aware of my privileges under the law. I choose to carry(openly preferred) when I feel there is a need. I applaud anyone that wants to carry legally for any reason. But for me, I don't always carry. If I am transporting a handgun legally in my car, I prefer to have it in the trunk in my lockbox. If I am driving in PA and I happen to be carjacked at gunpoint, then the gun wouldn't do me much good in the trunk, I agree. I would have no access to it and thats my own darn fault.

I feel this is how I choose to transport it. If I get pulled over, the last thing I want to hear is why do I have a loaded gun within my reach and control in my car, whether I have a CCW/LTCF or not.

But thanks for inquiring about how I transport. I am happy how this whole post turned out and want to wish everyone a happy holiday.

Appreciate your input and cordiality.

Some here can be outspoken, but most have the intent of preserving RKBA.

The best to you and yours.

Yata hey

Open Carry in Schuylkill County, PA - Bad Encounter

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