Los Angeles National Forest

eraseallhope · Dec 5, 2009

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So im planning on going to the mt. baldy area soon, just to hike around in the snow with some friends and my dog

but i was just curious if Loaded Open Carry is legal in that area?

There are hardly any homes, AND POLICE that i have ever seen, soo would that be considered a "unincorperated area?"

or should i just not even open carry at all

just a question, im not sure where corperated ends and unincorperated begins haha

demnogis · Dec 5, 2009

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You can definitely Unloaded Open Carry. As for Loaded Open Carry, I searched through LA County's Municipal Codes and found a few restrictions. Search for yourself here:
http://search.municode.com/html/16274/index.htm

Here's what I found:

13.66.010 Use of weapons permitted when.
This chapter, except as otherwise provided in this Part 1, does not prohibit the discharge of any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or firearm of any kind, or the shooting of any arrow or other missile, when necessary so to do to protect life or property, or to destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal. (Ord. 7730 § 1, 1960: Ord. 7381 § 1 (part), 1958: Ord. 1769 Art. 3 § 302, 1929.)

13.66.040 Discharging firearms--Restrictions generally.
A person shall not shoot, fire or discharge, and a person, firm or corporation shall not cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged, any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or firearm in the general direction of any house, camp or place of human habitation, or in the general direction of any public highway, road, street, way, park or premises, unless the place from which such rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or firearm is shot, fired or discharged is at least one-half mile distant from such house, camp or place of human habitation, or is at least one-half mile distant from that portion of such public highway, road, street, way, park or premises toward which such rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or firearm is shot, fired or discharged. The exception in Section 13.66.010 to destroying or killing any predatory or dangerous animal does not apply to this section. (Ord. 7381 § 1 (part), 1958: Ord. 1769 Art. 3 § 304, 1929.)

13.66.050 Discharging firearms--Prohibited on or along public ways.
A. A person shall not shoot, fire or discharge, and a person, firm or corporation shall not cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged, upon, along or across any public highway, road, street or way, any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or firearm.
B. The exception in Section 13.66.010 to destroying or killing any predatory or dangerous animal does not apply to this section. (Ord. 7381 § 1 (part), 1958: Ord. 1769 Art. 3 § 305, 1929.)

13.66.130 Firearms--Discharge prohibited in designated districts.
Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a person shall not shoot, fire or discharge, and a person, firm or corporation shall not cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged, in the unincorporated territory lying within the boundaries of any district or area defined in this Part 2, any rifle, shotgun, revolver or firearm of any kind. (Ord. 7381 § 1 (part), 1958: Ord. 1769 Art. 1 § 100, 1929.)

And of course it goes on to list every unincorporated area of LA county by district. Read through the details so you know what part of what district you will be in. If there is no discharge prohibition there, you may LOC. If not, UOC.

eraseallhope · Dec 5, 2009

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I will for sure be open carrying, because of there not being any police or help for miles down the mountain

but i just wasnt sure on the loaded/unloaded

i dont mind unloaded, but for being in the mountains i sure would like to be loaded haha

Rattrapper · Dec 5, 2009

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I would check U.S. Forest ServiceRegulations as to whether they assimulate state laws and regulations.Usuallyfedral laws are over state or local laws. The states are not allowed to make laws governing federal property. The ForestService can also tell you if that property in a local incorporation.

Mike · Dec 5, 2009

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Rattrapper wrote:

I would check U.S. Forest ServiceRegulations as to whether they assimulate state laws and regulations.Usuallyfedral laws are over state or local laws. The states are not allowed to make laws governing federal property. The ForestService can also tell you if that property in a local incorporation.

hu? No.

Federal law almost always incorporates state criminal law - and regardless, a state law is enforceable on persons on federal property by state officals.

Inparticular, federal law of gun carry on national Forest and BLM lands, and nationa parks effective Jan. 19, 2010, allows gun carry ONLY if legal under state law.

If Los Angeles County has indeed banned all shooting in all of its unincorporated areas, then abent some other exception in the Cal. penal code (I think there is one for campsites?), youcannot open carry loaded gun on federal land in that County.

MudCamper · Dec 5, 2009

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In much of the National Forest you can LOC. Although where shooting is prohibited you can only UOC. Mike will disagree with me on this. He may be right, but personally I don't want to risk my fortune and freedom being the test case.

See Fireams in Forests and Parks.

Mike · Dec 5, 2009

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MudCamper wrote:

In much of the National Forest you can LOC. Although where shooting is prohibited you can only UOC. Mike will disagree with me on this. . . .
See Fireams in Forests and Parks.

Well, we agree that County shooting bans create Section 12031 prohibited areas even in National Forests, and I wouldpossibly agree with you that some federal no shooting restrictions might do the same, unfortunately, but in looking at your treatise you link to above, I don't think thatFish and Game Code s 3004creates off limits areas as the shooting prohibition plainly applies only "while hunting."

I also have reservations on whether a temporary federal land no shooting order would create a Section 12031 prohibited area - I'm not sure why yet, but this sort of ephemeral shooting ban does not smell like that contemplated in 12031.

But then again, is there any other Calif. case law construing whether state law refers to foreign law when it refers general to "law"?

Really, I still am on the fence over whether a non-California sovereign's (i.e., the United States) shooting ban triggers a load ban under 12031 - see discussion of United States v. Small at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_v._United_States (federal statutory term "any court" does not include those in foreign countries).

Rattrapper · Dec 6, 2009

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My Experience and Knowledge comes from Massachusetts Case Law (I know it is not Ca. or Federal) Teasdale vs. Nowell 192-Ma 440,442,443 and Conservation Commission of Bristol County 1980 380 Ma 706,708-711 These cases prohibit the Cities and Town from making and enforcing Ordinances and By-Laws over State properties. I would think that the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions, would have some kind of sovereignty clause. Just my thoughts on this issue. Makes for an interesting discussion, debate is always healthy.

moleculo · Dec 6, 2009

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MudCamper wrote:

In much of the National Forest you can LOC. Although where shooting is prohibited you can only UOC. Mike will disagree with me on this. He may be right, but personally I don't want to risk my fortune and freedom being the test case.

See Fireams in Forests and Parks.

You can hunt in all of the local SoCal National Forest. The "no shooting" generally refers to target shooting. Any U.S. Forest Service guy will tell you this, and it is material that is covered in the state required hunter's safety course. Some of the areas are restricted to "bow" or "shotgun" only, but that is easy to find out. Generally, the restricted areas around L.A. & San Bernardino are those that are in the foothills facing the city...but get the shooting map for yourself to find out.

You can't hunt without LOC. Get a hunting license, carry it with you, and LOC away. Problem solved. It's always open season for coyotes, racoon, opossum, etc.

I almost always LOC while hiking in the National Forest. I have been stopped by U.S. Forest Service once, who just asked to see my hunting license and said "good day". Two other times I was stopped by Game Wardens who asked see my hunting license, what I was hunting for (I WAS hunting those two times), checked my tags, and checked my ammo. And then they let me go on my way. BTW, if you are going to LOC and are "hunting", make sure you unload while in the car. It's illegal to hunt from a vehicle, and LOC in a vehicle gives the appearance of hunting. One of the game wardens told me that they LOVE to hand out fines for that.

demnogis · Dec 6, 2009

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Be careful! 12031 Load Prohibition can still be invoked through county ordinance, even in Unincorporated areas! LA County details all unincorporated areas (even national forest) as having discharge prohibitions!

moleculo wrote:

MudCamper wrote:

In much of the National Forest you can LOC. Although where shooting is prohibited you can only UOC. Mike will disagree with me on this. He may be right, but personally I don't want to risk my fortune and freedom being the test case.

See Fireams in Forests and Parks.

Click to expand...

You can hunt in all of the local SoCal National Forest. The "no shooting" generally refers to target shooting. Any U.S. Forest Service guy will tell you this, and it is material that is covered in the state required hunter's safety course. Some of the areas are restricted to "bow" or "shotgun" only, but that is easy to find out. Generally, the restricted areas around L.A. & San Bernardino are those that are in the foothills facing the city...but get the shooting map for yourself to find out.

You can't hunt without LOC. Get a hunting license, carry it with you, and LOC away. Problem solved. It's always open season for coyotes, racoon, opossum, etc.

I almost always LOC while hiking in the National Forest. I have been stopped by U.S. Forest Service once, who just asked to see my hunting license and said "good day". Two other times I was stopped by Game Wardens who asked see my hunting license, what I was hunting for (I WAS hunting those two times), checked my tags, and checked my ammo. And then they let me go on my way. BTW, if you are going to LOC and are "hunting", make sure you unload while in the car. It's illegal to hunt from a vehicle, and LOC in a vehicle gives the appearance of hunting. One of the game wardens told me that they LOVE to hand out fines for that.

Mike · Dec 7, 2009

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moleculo wrote:

You can hunt in all of the local SoCal National Forest. The "no shooting" generally refers to target shooting.

really, even in Los Angeles County?I htought the ordiances previously cited ban all shooting?

Rattrapper · Dec 7, 2009

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As I said The State, Counties,Cities and Towns can not abridge what the Federal agencies allow on thier property. There is some case law on this I am sure.

Mike · Dec 7, 2009

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Rattrapper wrote:

As I said The State, Counties,Cities and Towns can not abridge what the Federal agencies allow on thier property. There is some case law on this I am sure.

Ahem, those federsal agencies' regulations only allow gun carry as allowed by federal law; regardless, if state law criminalizes some conduct, that crime applies to persons on federal property except for federal officials carryig out constitutional duties - that's why people who commit murder on military bases are most often tried under state law murder charges.

Rattrapper · Dec 7, 2009

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You have now compared apples to oranges. Murder is not a permitted activity on a military installation. When U.S. Forest Service allows hunting on Forest service and allows a Firearm to be used. The State, County, City, or Town Laws do not apply then, to the discharge of a firearm. The Sovereignty Clause of the U.S. Constitution takeseffect a this point. Now, how to Open carry a loaded Handgun on this property. A personwould, as was said earlier, have to be hunting, Have a hunting license and be able to say what was in season for that area.

Mike · Dec 7, 2009

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Rattrapper wrote:

You have now compared apples to oranges. Murder is not a permitted activity on a military installation. When U.S. Forest Service allows hunting on Forest service and allows a Firearm to be used. The State, County, City, or Town Laws do not apply then, to the discharge of a firearm. The Sovereignty Clause of the U.S. Constitution takeseffect a this point. Now, how to Open carry a loaded Handgun on this property. A personwould, as was said earlier, have to be hunting, Have a hunting license and be able to say what was in season for that area.

Look - federal power is limited, unlike the general olice powers of states - there is no general federal law against murder; that why under the federal assimilated crimes act, many or most crimes on federal land are charged under state law.

Please cite to authority - sovereignty clause? What are you talking about?

Carrying handguns on forest service land? The federal regulation is that such carry is lawful if and only if lawful under the laws of that state - just like the new national park rule effective Jan. 19, 2009.

moleculo · Dec 7, 2009

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Straight from the U.S. Forest Service web page at:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/angeles/recreation/hunt-shoot.shtml

HUNTING
Hunting is permitted throughout the Angeles National Forest during hunting seasons designated by the California State Department of Fish and Game. Hunting is prohibited in the San Dimas Experimental Forest.

Hunting is not permitted in those areas where the discharge of firearms is prohibited by County Ordinance, California State law, or Federal regulations, and hunters must follow all laws, including no hunting within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area. A valid California hunting license is required.

This is the only firearms closure map I could find online for Los Angeles County. It's from 1994, so there is probably an updated one. If anyone has it, please scan it and post it.

http://mappery.com/Los-Angeles-County-Firearms-Closure-Area-Map

You can see from the map that almost all of the San Gabriel mountain range is Green, except around a few highways and recreation areas. The legend for Green says, "Areas in which the discharge of any firearm is prohibited except when used in the pursuit of birds and mammals pursuant to California state fish and game regulations"

I stand by what I posted earlier. Get a hunting license, carry it with you,and LOC while hiking. Just know the zone you're in to make sure you're not in a shotgun/archery zone. Personally, when I'm hiking, I'm always hunting for coyote...open season and no bag limits

BTW, for the original poster - Mt. Baldy is in San Bernardino county, so you need to find a shooting map for that area.

Nopal · Dec 7, 2009

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Just keep in mind that the Mt. Baldy area falls just inside the "Lead Free" condor zone, so if you plan on carrying your hunting license and a firearm, you'd better make sure it'sa rimfire, orthat you're only carrying lead-free ammo. :banghead:

I'm sure that bear lead-free self-defense revolver loads are as easy to come-by as their evil lead counterparts. :quirky

Isn't it a wonderful state that we live in?

wewd · Dec 7, 2009

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The lead ban is only for big game and non-game since Condors will eat the gut piles or carcasses you leave behind. So if you are "coyote hunting" you must have lead free ammo in the zone since coyotes are non-game (means you don't eat them and leave the skinned carcass). You don't need lead free ammo for small game and upland birds since nothing is usually left behind.

Nopal · Dec 7, 2009

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wewd wrote:

The lead ban is only for big game and non-game since Condors will eat the gut piles or carcasses you leave behind. So if you are "coyote hunting" you must have lead free ammo in the zone since coyotes are non-game (means you don't eat them and leave the skinned carcass). You don't need lead free ammo for small game and upland birds since nothing is usually left behind.

Thanks for the correction. So, it looks like the only thing that can possibly be hunted in the area right nowwith pistols/rifles using lead projectiles are rabbitsor fur bearers. A typical self-defense gun may be overkill for that, but at least it appears to belegal.

wewd · Dec 7, 2009

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Nopal wrote:

wewd wrote:

The lead ban is only for big game and non-game since Condors will eat the gut piles or carcasses you leave behind. So if you are "coyote hunting" you must have lead free ammo in the zone since coyotes are non-game (means you don't eat them and leave the skinned carcass). You don't need lead free ammo for small game and upland birds since nothing is usually left behind.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. So, it looks like the only thing that can possibly be hunted in the area right now with pistols/rifles using lead projectiles are rabbits or fur bearers. A typical self-defense gun may be overkill for that, but at least it appears to be legal.

Just be careful of the Los Angeles county ban on using rifles and pistols to take rabbits. You are limited to shotguns, archery and falconry for rabbits in LA county. Not sure if air guns are legal there or not.

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