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Pistol Explodes in WV Deputy Sheriff's Hand at Range
- Thread starter JimMullinsWVCDL
- Start date
1245A Defender
Regular Member
imported post
WVCDL wrote:
WVCDL wrote:
this is the 2nd time ive heard of H K guns that break! My gun committed suicide today... now im sure ill never buy 1!
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
1245A Defender wrote:
1245A Defender wrote:
The story in question is a Glock 21, .45ACP. Extremely unusual. I vote for bad ammunition, not a fault with the gun.
Statesman
Regular Member
imported post
Don't they test fire these things at the factory? If they do, then this must be bad ammo.
Don't they test fire these things at the factory? If they do, then this must be bad ammo.
Master Doug Huffman
Banned
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1245A Defender wrote:
1245A Defender wrote:
I wonder how many hits will be gotten searching for "glock" + "kaboom"?
1245A Defender
Regular Member
imported post
SouthernBoy wrote:
woops; sorry for not reading carefully! i think i just assumed because of the other thread i had read.
now i have a definate excuse to never buy a glock either!
its anyones guess about what ammunition was at fault in either of these failures, but unless they were hand loaded nuclear, lightspeed, hyperdeath elephant hunting catridges, that kind of failure shouldnt ever happen!
SouthernBoy wrote:
woops; sorry for not reading carefully! i think i just assumed because of the other thread i had read.
now i have a definate excuse to never buy a glock either!
its anyones guess about what ammunition was at fault in either of these failures, but unless they were hand loaded nuclear, lightspeed, hyperdeath elephant hunting catridges, that kind of failure shouldnt ever happen!
TheMrMitch
Regular Member
imported post
I have and carry a G21.....no fears at all. No reloads either.:dude:
I have and carry a G21.....no fears at all. No reloads either.:dude:
Dreamer
Regular Member
imported post
Wow. That right next door (county-wise) to where my sister lives.
That deputy is lucky he didn't loose a finger, by the looks of the frame of that Glock.
I've heard a lot of horror stories about Glocks, but I've never heard of this type of failure. I would say, from what little we know, and based on the pics of the gun that it is most likely a "bad ammo" issue...
Back when the Glock was first gaining widespread adoption among American LEA's, I was working for a NIJ contractor, and we got a lot of reports of malfunctions, but NONE like this. In the early days of cops getting Glocks, there were a lot of misfeed issues and ND's, but most of them were "operator error", and easily corrected with proper training.
We did get a rash of "slide rail failures" reported from one batch of Glocks that were used by a mid-western LEA. Apparently the molded-in slide rails were coming loose in the polymer frames, and causing the frame rail grooves to wear and then the slides would crack or sometimes they would just come off as they cycled. Glock addressed the problem immediately though, and that problem was fixed. But that was back in the early 1990's and was really more of a QAQC issue than a design flaw...
You either love the Glock or you don't. Personally, I'm in the "don't" camp (I don;t like the trigger system, and they don't fit my hands well), but I know a lot of folks who swear by them. Even though I'm not personally a Glock fan, I don't this incident should in any way be seen as a negative against Glocks. They are fine fiearms, if you like them and they fit your hands.
Wow. That right next door (county-wise) to where my sister lives.
That deputy is lucky he didn't loose a finger, by the looks of the frame of that Glock.
I've heard a lot of horror stories about Glocks, but I've never heard of this type of failure. I would say, from what little we know, and based on the pics of the gun that it is most likely a "bad ammo" issue...
Back when the Glock was first gaining widespread adoption among American LEA's, I was working for a NIJ contractor, and we got a lot of reports of malfunctions, but NONE like this. In the early days of cops getting Glocks, there were a lot of misfeed issues and ND's, but most of them were "operator error", and easily corrected with proper training.
We did get a rash of "slide rail failures" reported from one batch of Glocks that were used by a mid-western LEA. Apparently the molded-in slide rails were coming loose in the polymer frames, and causing the frame rail grooves to wear and then the slides would crack or sometimes they would just come off as they cycled. Glock addressed the problem immediately though, and that problem was fixed. But that was back in the early 1990's and was really more of a QAQC issue than a design flaw...
You either love the Glock or you don't. Personally, I'm in the "don't" camp (I don;t like the trigger system, and they don't fit my hands well), but I know a lot of folks who swear by them. Even though I'm not personally a Glock fan, I don't this incident should in any way be seen as a negative against Glocks. They are fine fiearms, if you like them and they fit your hands.
propertymanager
Regular Member
imported post
There are a BUNCH of these failures in Glocks. Do an internet search and you'll see this exact story over and over again.
One theory regarding this problem has to do with the partially unsupported chamber in Glocks. By being unsupported at the bottom of the chamber, if the ammo is over-charged or the case has any weak area, the case can split and exhaust out the bottom of the gun (often blowing out the magazine) and causing the damage you see in the picture.
This unsupported chamber is the reason that you're not supposed to shoot reloads in Glocks. Of course, many people do shoot reloads - including me. However, I always make light reloads and I have a fully supported barrel on order. My plan is to shoot the fully supported barrel for all my practice and competition with reloads; and touse the factory barrel when I'm carrying for self-defense (with factory ammo).
There are a BUNCH of these failures in Glocks. Do an internet search and you'll see this exact story over and over again.
One theory regarding this problem has to do with the partially unsupported chamber in Glocks. By being unsupported at the bottom of the chamber, if the ammo is over-charged or the case has any weak area, the case can split and exhaust out the bottom of the gun (often blowing out the magazine) and causing the damage you see in the picture.
This unsupported chamber is the reason that you're not supposed to shoot reloads in Glocks. Of course, many people do shoot reloads - including me. However, I always make light reloads and I have a fully supported barrel on order. My plan is to shoot the fully supported barrel for all my practice and competition with reloads; and touse the factory barrel when I'm carrying for self-defense (with factory ammo).
Tomahawk
Regular Member
imported post
I thought the problem was bullet set-back, not reloads, no?
I thought the problem was bullet set-back, not reloads, no?
simmonsjoe
Regular Member
imported post
It was brand new??
Is it possible he failed to clean it first?
Barrel and Chamber could of had excessive grease
It was brand new??
Is it possible he failed to clean it first?
Barrel and Chamber could of had excessive grease
imported post
SouthernBoy wrote:
40 S&W WARNING on Buffalo Bore's website. [font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][/font]
“This data is intended for use in firearms which fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms which do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case head separation, or other conditions which may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter or bystanders.”
Glock happens to chamber their 40 S&W pistols without a fully supported chamber and both of those above safety notices are likely aimed at Glock. I know of no other 40 S&W handguns being sold in the US that don’t have fully supported chambers. If you really want to shoot 40S&W +P ammo in your Glock, have an after market barrel that uses a supported chamber, dropped into it. This is a fairly common practice and will give you the safety margin needed to fire our ammo in your Glock. It will also likely give you more velocity that the factory Glock barrel.
SouthernBoy wrote:
Not Necessarily. Some pistols chambered for the 40 S&W 45 ACP and the 9mm cartridge may not provide complete support of the case head. If this condition exists, normal pressure loads such as those shown here can cause the case wall to bulge or rupture at the unsupported point. Contact your firearm manufacturer to determine if your pistol completely supports the case head, or ask a gunsmith to inspect your pistol before using it with ANY ammunition. It is the gun owners responsibility to know his firearm and its capabilities and limitations.”
40 S&W WARNING on Buffalo Bore's website. [font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][/font]
“This data is intended for use in firearms which fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms which do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case head separation, or other conditions which may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter or bystanders.”
Glock happens to chamber their 40 S&W pistols without a fully supported chamber and both of those above safety notices are likely aimed at Glock. I know of no other 40 S&W handguns being sold in the US that don’t have fully supported chambers. If you really want to shoot 40S&W +P ammo in your Glock, have an after market barrel that uses a supported chamber, dropped into it. This is a fairly common practice and will give you the safety margin needed to fire our ammo in your Glock. It will also likely give you more velocity that the factory Glock barrel.
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
zack991 wrote:
Anyway you gave me pause so I inspected both of my 23's (did not check my 27) to be sure the chamber offers a consistent support at the ramp and both seem to be fine. As a comparison, I also checked my G19 just to be sure. The oldest of these guns happens to be my primary carry G23 and I bought it new in March 2007. All five of my Glocks are 3-gens.
I also checked my new M&P40 and it is fine, too.
BTW, there is no specification for .40S&W +P loads and none are offered.
zack991 wrote:
I have seen this floating around the glocktalk.com website for years and there have been some cases of it happening. I wonder if it might be older Glock .40's where the feed ramp ends at the breach mouth with a "carved out" area to facilitate feeding?
Anyway you gave me pause so I inspected both of my 23's (did not check my 27) to be sure the chamber offers a consistent support at the ramp and both seem to be fine. As a comparison, I also checked my G19 just to be sure. The oldest of these guns happens to be my primary carry G23 and I bought it new in March 2007. All five of my Glocks are 3-gens.
I also checked my new M&P40 and it is fine, too.
BTW, there is no specification for .40S&W +P loads and none are offered.
Alexcabbie
Regular Member
imported post
Well, there is one MORE reason I am leery of Glocks now.
Well, there is one MORE reason I am leery of Glocks now.
GLOCK21GB
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Alexcabbie wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
I have had mine for 4 years now, 3000 plus rounds through it , no problems, I am not scared , crap happens ....glocks have Kabooms , Beretta's have slide fracture issues.......Murphy's law...:?
M
McX
Guest
imported post
How does the .40 cal HiPoint come out on this risk?
How does the .40 cal HiPoint come out on this risk?
hp-hobo
Regular Member
imported post
The Hi-Point JCP (.40 S&W) has a fully supported chamber and has no issues with KB's. Like any other firearm, improper maintenanceand repairs or the use of incorrectly reloaded ammo or defective factory ammo may cause a problem.
The one thing that does pop up from time to time (rarely) is a cracked slide. I guess like any other manufacturer, a defective part gets by on occasion. My personal C9 put 20k rounds downrange with zero breakage. Your results may vary.
The Hi-Point JCP (.40 S&W) has a fully supported chamber and has no issues with KB's. Like any other firearm, improper maintenanceand repairs or the use of incorrectly reloaded ammo or defective factory ammo may cause a problem.
The one thing that does pop up from time to time (rarely) is a cracked slide. I guess like any other manufacturer, a defective part gets by on occasion. My personal C9 put 20k rounds downrange with zero breakage. Your results may vary.
M
McX
Guest
imported post
Thanks HP-Hobo. Since they make stuff out of fancy plastic these days, I have always quesioned to reliability, and durability of these "new age" guns, like my HiPoint. Give me steel, or give me death. I miss the old metal days.
Thanks HP-Hobo. Since they make stuff out of fancy plastic these days, I have always quesioned to reliability, and durability of these "new age" guns, like my HiPoint. Give me steel, or give me death. I miss the old metal days.
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
imported post
I spent several hours last night doing some more checking into this issue and here's what I have found so far.
It appears the issue with Glocks is primarily with older generations (they are currently at 3G and close to coming out with their 4G version - I saw one at Virginia Arms just the past Thursday; at least I think it was a 4G). Anyway, the problem is essentially two-fold.
The bottom of the breach mouth where the top of the feed ramp meets is slightly recessed into the breach, like an upside down eyebrow. This exposes a small amount of the straight part of the case wall above the indent where the case tapers to meet the rim. If the case contains too much of the wrong powder for the load, or bullet setback has occurred too much, there is the distinct possibility that an explosion can take place instead of a controlled burn as is normal and desired.
The other thing appears to be the fact that the case wall of .40 S&W ammunition is not nearly as thick as perhaps it really needs to be. If the straight portion of the case wall is fully supported by the breach, then unnatural expansion caused by a bad load has a greater chance of being contained, thereby preventing rupture of the case.
Also, if there is any debris in the barrel such as lead or an unusual amount of fouling, this can rapidly increase pressures beyond that which the barrel can safely handle. If the case is not fully supported, then that could become the first weak spot in the chain of failures.
Glock has known about this problem for some time and has obviously made corrections in their barrels at the feed ramp. Looking at close up photos of earlier generation barrels compared to more current ones makes it clear that changes were made to reduce this "unsupported" section at the feed ramp.
All five of my Glocks are 3G. So last night, I also compared my two Glock 23's to my Glock 19 and all three of them had this slightly exposed area at the junction of the breach mouth and the feed ramp; not as pronounced as earlier models. As a reference, I also compared one of my G23's to my new M&P40 barrel. The M&P barrel has full support completely around the straight portion of the case with no indentation at all where the feed ramp meets the breach mouth.
Hope this helps.
I spent several hours last night doing some more checking into this issue and here's what I have found so far.
It appears the issue with Glocks is primarily with older generations (they are currently at 3G and close to coming out with their 4G version - I saw one at Virginia Arms just the past Thursday; at least I think it was a 4G). Anyway, the problem is essentially two-fold.
The bottom of the breach mouth where the top of the feed ramp meets is slightly recessed into the breach, like an upside down eyebrow. This exposes a small amount of the straight part of the case wall above the indent where the case tapers to meet the rim. If the case contains too much of the wrong powder for the load, or bullet setback has occurred too much, there is the distinct possibility that an explosion can take place instead of a controlled burn as is normal and desired.
The other thing appears to be the fact that the case wall of .40 S&W ammunition is not nearly as thick as perhaps it really needs to be. If the straight portion of the case wall is fully supported by the breach, then unnatural expansion caused by a bad load has a greater chance of being contained, thereby preventing rupture of the case.
Also, if there is any debris in the barrel such as lead or an unusual amount of fouling, this can rapidly increase pressures beyond that which the barrel can safely handle. If the case is not fully supported, then that could become the first weak spot in the chain of failures.
Glock has known about this problem for some time and has obviously made corrections in their barrels at the feed ramp. Looking at close up photos of earlier generation barrels compared to more current ones makes it clear that changes were made to reduce this "unsupported" section at the feed ramp.
All five of my Glocks are 3G. So last night, I also compared my two Glock 23's to my Glock 19 and all three of them had this slightly exposed area at the junction of the breach mouth and the feed ramp; not as pronounced as earlier models. As a reference, I also compared one of my G23's to my new M&P40 barrel. The M&P barrel has full support completely around the straight portion of the case with no indentation at all where the feed ramp meets the breach mouth.
Hope this helps.
Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
imported post
Steel frames! Accept no substitutes.:banghead:
Steel frames! Accept no substitutes.:banghead: