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Thread: Harassed at Smiths on 828 S 900 W

  1. #1
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    So, I decided that after getting off work tonight that i would go to the store and get something for dinner as i usually do every couple of nights, so i grabbed my gun and drove to the Smiths. I entered the store and got a basket as usual, and was chatting to my friends who were with me. After about three minutes in the store the "security officer" came up to me and didnt even start with hello like a normal human being, but got straight to the uninformed point.

    Michael Moss ("Security Guard") - "Do you have a permit for that?"

    Me - "No, I do not, I am openly carrying it as is my second amendment right."

    MM- "If you don't have a permit you are not allowed to carry it like that."

    Me- "Well actually in the state of Utah, its legal to carry-"

    MM (Rudely interrupting me)- "No, you are not allowed to carry that without a permit, i know, i have taken the classes for guns."

    Me- "In the state of Utah, you can carry it without a permit as long as there is no round chambered."

    MM- "No, thats not true, you need to go put it in your car."

    Me- Okay well ill happily put it in my vehicle, and we can either get an officer on the phone or here to explain to you Utah open carry laws.

    MM- "Well i don't think we need to get an officer here but yes you should put it in your car."

    So i decided it would be best to be a nice guy and put my firearm in my vehicle. Upon returning to the inside of the store, i asked the clerk (which i see almost every night i am there while i am openly carrying) to please get me a piece of paper and pen so that i might get the "security officers" information.

    I walked back over to the "security guard" and asked him for his name and then continued to talk to him after he got off the phone with SLCPD dispatch.

    Me -"So did you get the correct information from dispatch?"

    MM (Ignoring what i asked)- "I'm not trying to cause any problems im just trying to keep people safe."

    Me- "So am I. In the state of Utah the laws for openly carrying a firearm WITHOUT a permit, is that there must NOT be a round in the chamber."

    MM- "Actually i thought that the laws said that it has to be three actions from use."

    Me- "No, In the state of Utah (*sigh* this is getting ridiculous) you can openly carry a firearm WITHOUT a permit as long as there is no round in the chamber. In order to have a round in the chamber and be openly carrying, you would need a permit. I am trying to keep other people safe as well as myself, that is why i openly carry, as is my second amendment right."

    MM- "Okay well I'm just going to speak to the officer and find out for sure, and i will let you know if you are still here."

    Me- "Okay, thank you."

    I then continued doing my shopping for about another fifteen minutes and when i walked past him while leaving the store, i heard him speaking to the officer on the phone.

    It was slightly shocking that after shopping there for who knows how long since i started openly carrying without any problems or even a question, that this happened. But I'm curious if we should send an e-mail or phone call to the manager at that store and speak to him/her about this, as i do not want it to happen again, or i will take my business elsewhere.

    I humbly ask the veterans of our group to bestow your great knowledge upon me lol, i would love to have a bunch of us shop there while openly carrying. I do however look forward to hearing some advice.

    Next time i will make sure to have a copy of the open carry laws printed out so that the people who DON'T know the right information and make an ass out of themselves trying while failing horribly to quote gun laws "Because i have taken the gun class."

    Thanks again all!,

    OfficerMatt


  2. #2
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    I will have to stop by tonight and introduce myself.

    Is this a private security company or a Store Security officer
    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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    Honestly? I am not sure, i didnt see any company logo or anything on his jacket.

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    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    OfficerMatt,
    IMO you handled it wonderfully! You are 100% correct. There is no law about Open Carrying meaning we are legally allowed to do it. Also, it is not the law that there has to be an empty round in the chamber, but you must be 2 actions from firing the gun. For a revolver, the chamber under the hammer and the chamber to the left must both be empty. For a semi-auto, the chamber must be empty, but the reason is that's the only way to make it 2 actions from firing. Rack the slide, pull the trigger. 2 actions.

    You were right to stash your gun in your vehicle so you could back the rent-a-cop into a corner with knowledge proving you were on the high ground.

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    I have not had this happen to my anywhere. This is so wierd.

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    Well thank you, im very happy to know i handled it properly, and next time i will be a little bit more prepared *prints out the OC laws* and i am definitely looking forward to the meet at the Red Robin in Layton, its been a while since i have been able to go to one!

  7. #7
    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    lol that reminds me. I need to call RR in Layton to make sure they know we're coming. Thanks for the reminder!

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    Utah, and everyWestern State that isadjacent and contiguous toUtah,allows Open Carry, even I know that.

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    Matt,

    I think you were very polite in trying to explain the law to this person. This is a great tactic when the person approaching you is polite.

    This guard came to you with his mind made up (as far as I can tell). Attempting to argue or explain the law with this kind of person is futile.

    If you run into this type of person again, may I suggest that you answer their questions with more questions.

    Michael Moss ("Security Guard") - "Do you have a permit for that?"

    MM- "If you don't have a permit you are not allowed to carry it like that."

    Matt- Excuse me, who are you?

    MM- I'm security.

    Matt- Okay, what's the problem here?

    MM- Do you have a permit for that?

    Matt- Permit for what?

    MM- Your gun.

    Matt- What permit would I need?

    MM- A Concealed Weapons Permit.

    Matt- Is my firearm concealed?

    MM- No, but you can't carry that around here, it's illegal without a permit?

    Matt- Really? Which law says that?

    You see where I'm going... just keep asking questions. Make him support his accusations, don't go on the defensive, just put up a wall that he has to find a way to break down.

    You don't need to justify your behavior, he needs to justify approaching you.

    If he asks you to leave, do so politely and notify him that you will be contacting his manager to file a formal complaint about being asked to leave and about his rude behavior. Then leave.

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    I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Would you as a permit holder, try and educate by asking questions instead of just telling the person yes I have a permit? I agree the security guard needs to justify their reason for approaching. If facing a similar situation I would not tell them I have a permit, being careful not to lie, respectful, and answering questions with more questions the whole time. If your going to waste my time I want my moneys worth.
    Even though it is the season of peace I would formally complain. Got to love the 9th and 9th crowd. I lived a couple blocks from there for years.
    -Side note-
    I was asked to hide my gun by a family member this year during the 9th and 9th festival. He said "put that away you're going to scare somebody". I smiled and said" hopefully". Meaning the bad guys of course.
    -banki-

  11. #11
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    Definitely and interesting tactic, i will have to try that sometime and see how it goes. I don't like having to be confrontational or whatever since as one of the few that openly carries (other than us of course lol), i am in the spotlight and should set a good example as my actions will be seen by everyone around me.

    -OfficerMatt

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    UtahJarhead wrote:
    OfficerMatt,
    IMO you handled it wonderfully! You are 100% correct. There is no law about Open Carrying meaning we are legally allowed to do it. Also, it is not the law that there has to be an empty round in the chamber, but you must be 2 actions from firing the gun. For a revolver, the chamber under the hammer and the chamber to the left must both be empty. For a semi-auto, the chamber must be empty, but the reason is that's the only way to make it 2 actions from firing. Rack the slide, pull the trigger. 2 actions.

    You were right to stash your gun in your vehicle so you could back the rent-a-cop into a corner with knowledge proving you were on the high ground.
    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.


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    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
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    Great job on that, There is an insane mother in the provo library who freaks out each time I take my kids there and she always makes a huge deal. The last time she made and said that I had to check my gun with the security I asked her where does it state that. She started to look like she was going to punch me or something so I went and spoke with the guard. They said Err no policy like that and asked me if I could just cover it up. I said No since I do not have my CCW. As I walked away she was standing there looking as angry as ever I just smiled and told her to have a nice day.

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    Kloutier wrote:
    Great job on that, There is an insane mother in the provo library who freaks out each time I take my kids there and she always makes a huge deal. The last time she made and said that I had to check my gun with the security I asked her where does it state that. She started to look like she was going to punch me or something so I went and spoke with the guard. They said Err no policy like that and asked me if I could just cover it up. I said No since I do not have my CCW. As I walked away she was standing there looking as angry as ever I just smiled and told her to have a nice day.
    Hmm, sounds like I need to go to the library more often.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
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    It would be nice to see a larger OC movement through the library

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    Regular Member Rottie's Avatar
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    rpyne wrote:
    Kloutier wrote:
    Great job on that, There is an insane mother in the provo library who freaks out each time I take my kids there and she always makes a huge deal. The last time she made and said that I had to check my gun with the security I asked her where does it state that. She started to look like she was going to punch me or something so I went and spoke with the guard. They said Err no policy like that and asked me if I could just cover it up. I said No since I do not have my CCW. As I walked away she was standing there looking as angry as ever I just smiled and told her to have a nice day.
    Hmm, sounds like I need to go to the library more often.
    I can't believe you guys Kloutier and rpyne. Don't you know that the library should be a place of education.A place where all kinds of differing views can be expressed and explored without censure or ridicule. How dare you be so open in your views and exercise your second ammendment right in a place where there is likely a written copy of the constitution of the United States and the State of Utah. Why would you do such a thing so as to cause people to be exposed to something that they may not be familiar with, and especially do so in a place where the sole purpose is to educate and expand the mind to new ways of thinking. Of course the real travesty is that you made the librarian freak out and she probably raised her voice a bit to you. Don't you know you are supposed to keep things quiet in the library?

    Kidding of course!

  17. #17
    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
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    Lawl Rottie, I am sorry I will try and be an unprotected sheep more often

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