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Thread: A few questions

  1. #1
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    First let meapologizeif these questions have already been asked.

    1. While watching some of the Youtube videos from NH it was stated they did not have to show any ID. I was under the impression the Supreme Court had decided that if a LEO asked for ID you were required to show it. What is the requirement? Do you only have to show ID if you are in fact carrying ID?

    2. Where can I find the actual statue for firearm possesion in the MO constitution. 571 is for Weapons Offenses. It tells what is illegal but not what is legal. Sorry if it's in there and I missed it. It seems every search I do comes up with CC req. but not possesion or more importantly OC req.

    3. Has anyone ever made a handout that can be downloaded and printed which shows OC to belegal under Missouri law? I would like to be able to have something to carry with me and show if confronted.

    Thanks in advance for any info.


    AUDE VIDE TACE

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    Campaign Veteran ComSec's Avatar
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    Read around here and you will find your answers

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    I have gone through the old posts. The ID question is somewhat answered, but does Section 84.710 apply statewide? As far as the OC question, is Sec. 23 of the Bill Of Rights the only statue for OC. Is there one more on point? Your pamphlet is very informitive, but I'm not sure it would convince a LEO I'm with in my rights to be carrying around a gun on my hip. I'm just not sure they would interrupt Sec. 23 the same as I. Also can I OC anywhere(court houses, polling places, correction facilities, and etc.)?
    AUDE VIDE TACE

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    Campaign Veteran ComSec's Avatar
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    Just because there is little in the laws regarding OC does not make it any less legal, missouri is open carry legal EXCEPT where a city has prohibited it. Keep reading until you understand where you can carry or if, then you should carry. Dont take my or anyone elses word here research everything your self, I OC every where its legal if not I dont go unless I have to. Gov Buildings and Schools are a NO-GO, there death traps thats where all the shootings happen

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    ComSec wrote:
    Just because there is little in the laws regarding OC does not make it any less legal, missouri is open carry legal EXCEPT where a city has prohibited it.
    Your statement points out one of the biggest obstacles to open carry -- public conditioning. Once we were a land of free people where anything was legal unless specifically forbidden. Now, far too many people have it ingrained in their psyche that only such things specifically allowed in the law are legal. We've gone from a nation of free men to a nation of psychologically enslaved serfs.

    Having said that, RSMo. 21.750 does allow cities and municipalities the power to restrict open carry within their jurisdiction. The Missouri Eastern Court of Appeals ruled, in (I believe) Joyce v Cape Girardeau, that this was constitutional because the legislature had said so. Go figure.

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    SavageOne wrote:

    2. Where can I find the actual statue for firearm possesion in the MO constitution. 571 is for Weapons Offenses. It tells what is illegal but not what is legal. Sorry if it's in there and I missed it. It seems every search I do comes up with CC req. but not possession or more importantly OC req.
    Just like Brolin_1911a1 stated, don't look for the government to tell you what is legal. When we get to that point, we will all be in trouble. Laws are generally there to restrict certain behaviors and not to allow any behaviors. A speed limit may be 65, but it doesn't mean that you must drive 65 (even though I am sure that most folks would appreciate that you do), its simply there as a reminder that the law is that you do not exceed that.

    Same as with Open Carry. The MO state law does not prohibit it, so each municipality can have more restrictive laws. Example is my AO of Fair Grove; it has a restriction that states that if I open carry a firearm, that I am guilty of a weapons offense. Then later in the laws, it has exceptions to this policy which states that if I possess a concealed carry permit, then the weapons offense of open carry does not apply to me.

    One of the great things about MO's Concealed Carry law is that even if I do carry in a restricted area (polling place, church without the ministers consent, school, gated area of an amusement park etc) is that it is not considered a criminal act and I can be asked to leave, then if I do not leave, and a peace officer is summoned, I can be fined. (which I would virtually be asking for a fine in such a circumstance).

    Do your research, but look for restrictions to your freedom and not permissions for your freedom.


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    I respect what you all are saying, but you misunderstand my question. True it is stated that I may bear arms in the Mo Constitution. What I was hoping to find is a more concrete statement on OC in the statues, so that if confronted by some well meaning LEOI could pull it out and show. I completely agree with your statements about my rights, I just don't want to get into an interpretation debate with someone who maybe holding a drawn gun on me. If I'm not mistaken some states have specified in their constitutions OC is legal. I just wondered if MO was the same.


    As to the question of where I can carry, I realize where the restrictions for CCW are. Can I OC in those same places?

    Thanks again
    AUDE VIDE TACE

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    SavageOne wrote:
    I respect what you all are saying, but you misunderstand my question. True it is stated that I may bear arms in the Mo Constitution. What I was hoping to find is a more concrete statement on OC in the statues, so that if confronted by some well meaning LEOI could pull it out and show. I completely agree with your statements about my rights, I just don't want to get into an interpretation debate with someone who maybe holding a drawn gun on me. If I'm not mistaken some states have specified in their constitutions OC is legal. I just wondered if MO was the same.

    As to the question of where I can carry, I realize where the restrictions for CCW are. Can I OC in those same places?

    Thanks again
    It cannot be more plainly stated: The lack of a law/statute making something illegal means that condition is legal.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    +1

    It would be pretty much impossible to find any law stating actions that are considered legal. You will find "exceptions" to laws prohibiting things. This is the closest thing you will find to laws allowing legal actions.

    Law books would be UNGODLY HUGE considering that the majority of our actions are legal. To list actions considered legal would take considerable time. Eating an apple? Yup. Listed right here under statute 7875749890030-284856763983.9 under "eating food items" (as opposed to statute 786583079059639860975-08-380764.8 "eating non-food items")

    7875749890030-284856763983.9 eating food items: "The eating of an apple is legal" see statute # 875876498092-9080569 and statute #497696964969696925 pertaining to the eating of carmel and the eating of nuts.

    Since under these statutes the eating of carmel and nuts is also legal, it must be construed that the eating of "candy" apples is also legal.

    See what a mess looking for laws pertaining to legal actions would be? Imagine, if you have to check for simply eating an apple, how many other actions you perform during the day. If there were laws regarding legal actions.....wow. That would be billions and billions of laws.

    Therefore, I'm pretty sure laws list things that are illegal. Much simpler that way.

    Since you can't find any Missouri laws pertaining to open carry, we can pretty much say that, since the law only addresses illegal actions, and open carry is not addressed......

    ...open carry is legal.

    Yet, you will find that Missouri does not prohibit local municipalities from enacting laws preventing it.

    Therefore, the only way you would be illegal is if you found a specific local ordinance prohibiting it. Several municipalities do.

    We need to pass full state preemption in Missouri.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Superlite27 wrote:
    +1
    snip...
    We need to pass full state preemption in Missouri.
    +1 and with no exceptions.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    "7875749890030-284856763983.9 eating food items: "The eating of an apple is legal" see statute # 875876498092-9080569 and statute #497696964969696925 pertaining to the eating of carmel and the eating of nuts."

    Ok, I understand this, but what if I combine the caramel, nuts AND the apple? Where is the statute for this?

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    SavageOne wrote:
    I respect what you all are saying, but you misunderstand my question. True it is stated that I may bear arms in the Mo Constitution. What I was hoping to find is a more concrete statement on OC in the statues, so that if confronted by some well meaning LEOI could pull it out and show. I completely agree with your statements about my rights, I just don't want to get into an interpretation debate with someone who maybe holding a drawn gun on me. If I'm not mistaken some states have specified in their constitutions OC is legal. I just wondered if MO was the same.


    As to the question of where I can carry, I realize where the restrictions for CCW are. Can I OC in those same places?

    Thanks again
    The best thing when facing a drawn gun from an LEO is to comply completely and live to argue your point.

    Then if things continue from there, ask what specifically you are being charged with. If you are in a legal zone, the officer cannot charge you with openly carrying a firearm since there would be no statute to cite.

    Keep reading some posts on this site as there are several examples of LEO's deciding to enforce what they think the law should be or probably is etc and finding out that they don't have a statute to stand on.





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    SavageOne wrote:
    I respect what you all are saying, but you misunderstand my question. True it is stated that I may bear arms in the Mo Constitution. What I was hoping to find is a more concrete statement on OC in the statues, so that if confronted by some well meaning LEOI could pull it out and show. I completely agree with your statements about my rights, I just don't want to get into an interpretation debate with someone who maybe holding a drawn gun on me. If I'm not mistaken some states have specified in their constitutions OC is legal. I just wondered if MO was the same....
    As others have said, it would be impossible to specifically list each and every freedom one has as a free citizen of a free state and country. And no, Missouri has no such clear-cut language in its constitution. The assumption of the authors is that this came under the heading of the right to keep and bear arms in section one, article 23. That is why that section specifically exempts the concealed carrying of arms from that constitutional protection.

    As for the "well meaning" LEO who insists that you cannot open carry, about the best you can do is to ask him if he'd be so kind as to cite the law which he claims you are breaking. IANAL, but it is my understanding that if he's going to arrest you he must cite the law which he is arresting you for breaking. Faced with the issue of arresting you for breaking a non-existent law he may become more reasonable.

    About ten years ago, I was told by a Missouri Highway Patrolman that I could not openly transport my loaded and readily visible 1911a1 in my car. The time was 11:45 p.m. and the place was alongside the highway 15 miles from home. The officer was wrong and I told him so. I also told him that I was not about to contest the issue with him in the dark and that close to home but that I would follow up on it later. He encouraged me to go ahead and do so. He ended up with a "letter of correction" in his files after I did follow up by writing to his Troop commander. That's the way to deal with it rather than contesting the issue with the officer face to face.

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