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Thread: A NC oc'ers first encounter with LEO

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    Posted: Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 09:42 pm
    First let me say I OC to educate not intimidate. Some will say I handled it all wrong but I was happy about the way the whole incident went in general. My wife & I were in theKmart inMadison.Wehad been there a good 45 minutes when I went to theMens room.When I came out there was a man about 35 & his sonabout 8 or10 with him. I smiled & said hello. I noticed the little boy's eyes get really big & before I could get 4 feet away he said " Daddy that man's got a gun ". Well you guessed it . I was in the back about 10 minutes later sitting down getting ready to try on some shoes. When I looked up & here comes 2 LEOs. I stopped what I was doing & put both hands on my left knee. They walked up withone in the front & one behind & to the side about 4 feet. LEO: Sir do you have a handgun? (duh) Me: Yes sir right on my hip in this holster. LEO: Do you have a CC permit ? Yes sir it's in my wallet, however as you may know I don't need one to OC. LEO: I'm going to take your gun & hold on to it to make us feel safer. Me: Sure go right ahead.( Now I have not moved this whole time.) Then I said is it alright if I take out my wallet? Leo: Yes I'll need to see your permit & license. By then he had handed my gun to the other LEO. They called it in &confirmed I was me & my permit was real. I explained that I was just trying to raise awareness about OC & I'd be glad to cover it up & even leave if that's what the manager wants. Then he explained that it makes some people nervous seeing someone carrying a gun around. To which I replied that I understood & even expected that to a certain extent which is exactly why I OC & I alsotold him no one had saidanything to me aboutit.( Just goes to show how chicken s%#@t the general population is ) He then gave me my firearm back. ( I never touched it, I told him to place it back in the holster & snap the strap back. Which he did ) I then told him that if the management had a problem I would leave. He said I'm sure it's fine we're going to talk to them now just go back to what you were doing. then they apologised & left. Later on our way out (with a $148 worth of merchandise) I went to the service desk to speak to the manager. I introduced myself & shook her hand. I said I was sorry if there had been a problem, but that I was within my rights to OC a firearm & that I often did so . I also stated that if there was a problem with this I would go elsewhere to shop. To which she replied that she was also sorry &that the LEOs had explained everything to her & that I was welcome back at any time. Sorry this post is so long but I thought that some of the details were important.




    The above was post by and oc'er from North carolina

    The below statement was a reply by a fellow NC oc'er








    Quote


    Reply


    Rex, personally, I think you handled the situation just fine. It's easy to look back at a situation and figure how you could have responded to refuse giving up any of your 2A, 4A, and 5A rights, but the bottom line is that you were successful in educating the store manager about the right to OC, and the manager is fine with you coming back to the store in the future. This means anyone else who OC's in the store from now on probably won't be hassled. You've made things easier on all of us. Anyone on this board may have handled the situation differently, but you handled it the way you felt most comfortable with and the outcome was positive. I congratulate you on that!

    Everyone has to make their own decisions about the extent they want to assert their rights when OC'ing, but in my opinion it's better to leave a store manager with a positive impression of OC'ers then get them ticked off by (justifiably) asserting every last right we have on the books and eliminating that store from the list of places where we can OC without being kicked out.

    One of my favorite movies is "A Man For All Seasons" and I think this quote is appropriate given the situation:

    God made the angels to show Him splendor, as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But Man He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of his mind. If He suffers us to come to such a case that there is no escaping, then we may stand to our tackle as best we can, and, yes, then we can clamor like champions, if we have the spittle for it. But it's God's part, not our own, to bring ourselves to such a pass. Our natural business lies in escaping.
    Sure, call me a pragmatist, but the more I OC, the more I realize that being a hard-a$$ about asserting my rights just isn't appropriate in every situation. It's appropriate in some situations, granted, but when and where to assert our rights is an individual decision and often can't be decided until we're in the situation itself. That's my $0.02 worth.

    Why am i posting this you wonder...Well i felt it was a really good way on handling an encounter, wheather you feel its right or wrong and I am sure there will be a least one that will not agree with it, you still have to step back and look out side the box.

    The original posting is under North Carolina"first encounter with LEO,there is a couple of more positive replys to this posting and some negitive replys, but you have to agree that the positive postings out weigh the negitive ones.

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    Glock 19 wrote:


    Posted: Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 09:42 pm
    First let me say I OC to educate not intimidate. Some will say I handled it all wrong but I was happy about the way the whole incident went in general. My wife & I were in theKmart inMadison.Wehad been there a good 45 minutes when I went to theMens room.When I came out there was a man about 35 & his sonabout 8 or10 with him. I smiled & said hello. I noticed the little boy's eyes get really big & before I could get 4 feet away he said " Daddy that man's got a gun ". Well you guessed it . I was in the back about 10 minutes later sitting down getting ready to try on some shoes. When I looked up & here comes 2 LEOs. I stopped what I was doing & put both hands on my left knee. They walked up withone in the front & one behind & to the side about 4 feet. LEO: Sir do you have a handgun? (duh) Me: Yes sir right on my hip in this holster. LEO: Do you have a CC permit ? Yes sir it's in my wallet, however as you may know I don't need one to OC. LEO: I'm going to take your gun & hold on to it to make us feel safer. Me: Sure go right ahead.( Now I have not moved this whole time.) Then I said is it alright if I take out my wallet? Leo: Yes I'll need to see your permit & license. By then he had handed my gun to the other LEO. They called it in &confirmed I was me & my permit was real. I explained that I was just trying to raise awareness about OC & I'd be glad to cover it up & even leave if that's what the manager wants. Then he explained that it makes some people nervous seeing someone carrying a gun around. To which I replied that I understood & even expected that to a certain extent which is exactly why I OC & I alsotold him no one had saidanything to me aboutit.( Just goes to show how chicken s%#@t the general population is ) He then gave me my firearm back. ( I never touched it, I told him to place it back in the holster & snap the strap back. Which he did ) I then told him that if the management had a problem I would leave. He said I'm sure it's fine we're going to talk to them now just go back to what you were doing. then they apologised & left. Later on our way out (with a $148 worth of merchandise) I went to the service desk to speak to the manager. I introduced myself & shook her hand. I said I was sorry if there had been a problem, but that I was within my rights to OC a firearm & that I often did so . I also stated that if there was a problem with this I would go elsewhere to shop. To which she replied that she was also sorry &that the LEOs had explained everything to her & that I was welcome back at any time. Sorry this post is so long but I thought that some of the details were important.




    The above was post by and oc'er from North carolina

    The below statement was a reply by a fellow NC oc'er









    Quote


    Reply


    Rex, personally, I think you handled the situation just fine. It's easy to look back at a situation and figure how you could have responded to refuse giving up any of your 2A, 4A, and 5A rights, but the bottom line is that you were successful in educating the store manager about the right to OC, and the manager is fine with you coming back to the store in the future. This means anyone else who OC's in the store from now on probably won't be hassled. You've made things easier on all of us. Anyone on this board may have handled the situation differently, but you handled it the way you felt most comfortable with and the outcome was positive. I congratulate you on that!

    Everyone has to make their own decisions about the extent they want to assert their rights when OC'ing, but in my opinion it's better to leave a store manager with a positive impression of OC'ers then get them ticked off by (justifiably) asserting every last right we have on the books and eliminating that store from the list of places where we can OC without being kicked out.

    One of my favorite movies is "A Man For All Seasons" and I think this quote is appropriate given the situation:

    God made the angels to show Him splendor, as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But Man He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of his mind. If He suffers us to come to such a case that there is no escaping, then we may stand to our tackle as best we can, and, yes, then we can clamor like champions, if we have the spittle for it. But it's God's part, not our own, to bring ourselves to such a pass. Our natural business lies in escaping.
    Sure, call me a pragmatist, but the more I OC, the more I realize that being a hard-a$$ about asserting my rights just isn't appropriate in every situation. It's appropriate in some situations, granted, but when and where to assert our rights is an individual decision and often can't be decided until we're in the situation itself. That's my $0.02 worth.

    Why am i posting this you wonder...Well i felt it was a really good way on handling an encounter, wheather you feel its right or wrong and I am sure there will be a least one that will not agree with it, you still have to step back and look out side the box.

    The original posting is under North Carolina"first encounter with LEO,there is a couple of more positive replys to this posting and some negitive replys, but you have to agree that the positive postings out weigh the negitive ones.
    We are either free or we are not.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Good ending! I enjoyed learning from your post, G19. Thanks!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    I always treat Law Enforcement with the same level of respect that I'm given.

    If the Officer is courteous and respectful of my rights, then I won't make a big fuss over it.

    It's as simple as that.

    Not sure how I'd respond to an officer asking to disarm me...
    "Will you disarm too? I'd feel safer that way."

    -Richard-

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    This just goes to prove that we all have different mannerisms. Dealing with LEO's while OC'ing is a tribulation born of trial and error. The above display was from trial, and maybe past error. Either way, the outcome worked splendidly and the patriot cannot be slighted for it. We all handle life as it comes at us, dependent upon the circumstances at the moment. The LEO's seemed to have gotten an education right along with the manager. I've stated before that it should be reasonable to be pollite and not cause suspicion. However, if the harassment had continued 1 or more times following the primary incident, I would then assert my full rights and take legal steps, and political steps to put an end to the violations.

    Your brain should go with you when you leave the house with your sidearm. Learn from the above experience and apply it accordingly...if you wish.

    http://www.lindaforcongress.com/

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    I had a similar encounter a while back. I learned from that. Now I carry a recorder and the knowledge that I didn't have at that time. The burden of proof is on LE. If I break no laws I should not be harassed by LEO. Wash, Rinse and Repeat and let them fall on their own sword.springerdave.

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    + 1 springerdave

    I would not have given up my gun, he would not have gotten my License, & or my cpl permit. I would have been polite, but I would not have submitted.



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    The supportive replies all overlook one thing in particular. I asked it as a question. I guess it got lost in the discussion because it was never answered or acknowledged.

    "What was the LEO's RAS for the gun seizure?"

    Police need RAS of a crime before they authorized to temporarily seize a firearm for the safety of themselves and others. See Terry vs Ohio.1

    The only indication in that OP about any reason for the encounter was the police comment that guns make some people nervous. Which does not even come close to genuine RAS. See Florida vs JL for the SCOTUS declaration that there is no special exception to standard Terry doctrine about reasonable suspicion just because there is a gun.

    The upshot is that seemingly the LEO violated that OPers 4A (search and seizure) rights--both his gun and his body, since you can't seize his gun off his body without first having seized him.

    And, the OPer seems to have waived both his 4A and 5A rights during the encounter.

    I am definitely at a loss about how it was a good way to handle an encounter. Certainly it was one way. It makes no sense that we would exercise one right (2A) but not others, or sacrifice others while exercisingone. The 4th and 5th Amendments are just as surely individual rights as the 2nd Amendment. And they are better known to police than 2A-as-OC.

    Even that OPersays he is going to handle ita little differently nexttime, I guess because since reading the replies he now better understands his rights and sees where they were violated.

    1. Terry v Ohio:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html

    2.Florida vs JL:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...9_0266_ZO.html

    A second major argument advanced by Florida and the United States as amicus is, in essence, that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception." Under such an exception, a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing. We decline to adopt this position. (emphasis added by Citizen)


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Venator wrote:
    Glock 19 wrote:


    Posted: Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 09:42 pm
    First let me say I OC to educate not intimidate. Some will say I handled it all wrong but I was happy about the way the whole incident went in general. My wife & I were in theKmart inMadison.Wehad been there a good 45 minutes when I went to theMens room.When I came out there was a man about 35 & his sonabout 8 or10 with him. I smiled & said hello. I noticed the little boy's eyes get really big & before I could get 4 feet away he said " Daddy that man's got a gun ". Well you guessed it . I was in the back about 10 minutes later sitting down getting ready to try on some shoes. When I looked up & here comes 2 LEOs. I stopped what I was doing & put both hands on my left knee. They walked up withone in the front & one behind & to the side about 4 feet. LEO: Sir do you have a handgun? (duh) Me: Yes sir right on my hip in this holster. LEO: Do you have a CC permit ? Yes sir it's in my wallet, however as you may know I don't need one to OC. LEO: I'm going to take your gun & hold on to it to make us feel safer. Me: Sure go right ahead.( Now I have not moved this whole time.) Then I said is it alright if I take out my wallet? Leo: Yes I'll need to see your permit & license. By then he had handed my gun to the other LEO. They called it in &confirmed I was me & my permit was real. I explained that I was just trying to raise awareness about OC & I'd be glad to cover it up & even leave if that's what the manager wants. Then he explained that it makes some people nervous seeing someone carrying a gun around. To which I replied that I understood & even expected that to a certain extent which is exactly why I OC & I alsotold him no one had saidanything to me aboutit.( Just goes to show how chicken s%#@t the general population is ) He then gave me my firearm back. ( I never touched it, I told him to place it back in the holster & snap the strap back. Which he did ) I then told him that if the management had a problem I would leave. He said I'm sure it's fine we're going to talk to them now just go back to what you were doing. then they apologised & left. Later on our way out (with a $148 worth of merchandise) I went to the service desk to speak to the manager. I introduced myself & shook her hand. I said I was sorry if there had been a problem, but that I was within my rights to OC a firearm & that I often did so . I also stated that if there was a problem with this I would go elsewhere to shop. To which she replied that she was also sorry &that the LEOs had explained everything to her & that I was welcome back at any time. Sorry this post is so long but I thought that some of the details were important.




    The above was post by and oc'er from North carolina

    The below statement was a reply by a fellow NC oc'er












    Quote


    Reply


    Rex, personally, I think you handled the situation just fine. It's easy to look back at a situation and figure how you could have responded to refuse giving up any of your 2A, 4A, and 5A rights, but the bottom line is that you were successful in educating the store manager about the right to OC, and the manager is fine with you coming back to the store in the future. This means anyone else who OC's in the store from now on probably won't be hassled. You've made things easier on all of us. Anyone on this board may have handled the situation differently, but you handled it the way you felt most comfortable with and the outcome was positive. I congratulate you on that!

    Everyone has to make their own decisions about the extent they want to assert their rights when OC'ing, but in my opinion it's better to leave a store manager with a positive impression of OC'ers then get them ticked off by (justifiably) asserting every last right we have on the books and eliminating that store from the list of places where we can OC without being kicked out.

    One of my favorite movies is "A Man For All Seasons" and I think this quote is appropriate given the situation:

    God made the angels to show Him splendor, as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But Man He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of his mind. If He suffers us to come to such a case that there is no escaping, then we may stand to our tackle as best we can, and, yes, then we can clamor like champions, if we have the spittle for it. But it's God's part, not our own, to bring ourselves to such a pass. Our natural business lies in escaping.
    Sure, call me a pragmatist, but the more I OC, the more I realize that being a hard-a$$ about asserting my rights just isn't appropriate in every situation. It's appropriate in some situations, granted, but when and where to assert our rights is an individual decision and often can't be decided until we're in the situation itself. That's my $0.02 worth.

    Why am i posting this you wonder...Well i felt it was a really good way on handling an encounter, wheather you feel its right or wrong and I am sure there will be a least one that will not agree with it, you still have to step back and look out side the box.

    The original posting is under North Carolina"first encounter with LEO,there is a couple of more positive replys to this posting and some negitive replys, but you have to agree that the positive postings out weigh the negitive ones.
    We are either free or we are not.
    has nothing to do with being free its how you present yourself when you have an encounter with LEO's but you are so anti cop i don't think you get the idea,don't care if you are on the bath twp. board that over sees a chief and 3 or 4 officers. I respect your knowledge of the michigan gun laws and the 2A but dude get off your soap box and use some common sense that god gave you

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    EM87 wrote:
    Good ending! I enjoyed learning from your post, G19. Thanks!
    thank you

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    American Sheepdog wrote:
    This just goes to prove that we all have different mannerisms. Dealing with LEO's while OC'ing is a tribulation born of trial and error. The above display was from trial, and maybe past error. Either way, the outcome worked splendidly and the patriot cannot be slighted for it. We all handle life as it comes at us, dependent upon the circumstances at the moment. The LEO's seemed to have gotten an education right along with the manager. I've stated before that it should be reasonable to be pollite and not cause suspicion. However, if the harassment had continued 1 or more times following the primary incident, I would then assert my full rights and take legal steps, and political steps to put an end to the violations.

    Your brain should go with you when you leave the house with your sidearm. Learn from the above experience and apply it accordingly...if you wish.

    http://www.lindaforcongress.com/
    sheepdog glade to see we are on the same page, love ready your posts!!!!

    how come you are not a LEO anymore??

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    Glock 19 wrote:
    American Sheepdog wrote:
    This just goes to prove that we all have different mannerisms. Dealing with LEO's while OC'ing is a tribulation born of trial and error. The above display was from trial, and maybe past error. Either way, the outcome worked splendidly and the patriot cannot be slighted for it. We all handle life as it comes at us, dependent upon the circumstances at the moment. The LEO's seemed to have gotten an education right along with the manager. I've stated before that it should be reasonable to be pollite and not cause suspicion. However, if the harassment had continued 1 or more times following the primary incident, I would then assert my full rights and take legal steps, and political steps to put an end to the violations.

    Your brain should go with you when you leave the house with your sidearm. Learn from the above experience and apply it accordingly...if you wish.

    http://www.lindaforcongress.com/
    sheepdog glade to see we are on the same page, love ready your posts!!!!

    how come you are not a LEO anymore??
    I broke my neck in the army and the stress on my body became too much too bear after a while. Plus, Where I worked, I had to supply all my gear and weapon and ammo. No pension or health insurance. I lasted 2 years under those conditions while patrolling at night alone in a crack infested neighborhood where backup was 15 minutes away at best.

    I served as long as I could stand!

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    office888 wrote:
    Not sure how I'd respond to an officer asking to disarm me...
    "Will you disarm too? I'd feel safer that way."
    May I suggest for your consideration:

    "No offense, Officer. I know you are just doing your job, but I do not consent to you seizing my gun. I will comply, but I do notconsent."

    The comment about just doing his job is just fluff. You have no way to know for sure whether he is actually doing his job (following the law) in temporarily seizing your gun.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    springerdave wrote:
    I had a similar encounter a while back. I learned from that. Now I carry a recorder and the knowledge that I didn't have at that time. The burden of proof is on LE. If I break no laws I should not be harassed by LEO. Wash, Rinse and Repeat and let them fall on their own sword.springerdave.
    with all do respect sringer this ocer in NC was not harassed, the officers were called to chk it out ...why some one was carrying.

    This is why some LEOs come at ocers with an attitude because the ocer wants to puff out his chest and act like a *******, so if you are polite and show no signs of being an ass then i feel your encounter should in theory come out positive...

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    Glock 19 wrote:
    has nothing to do with being free its how you present yourself when you have an encounter with LEO's but you are so anti cop i don't think you get the idea,don't care if you are on the bath twp. board that over sees a chief and 3 or 4 officers. I respect your knowledge of the michigan gun laws and the 2A but dude get off your soap box and use some common sense that god gave you
    Pssssst...your ignorance is showing. But all is not lost. You can educate yourself.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I have considered serving again but reality hit me in the head and I realized starting at the bottom like a young lad is not for me. I'm 40 now and feelin' it! I've beat my body into the dirt when I was young and it's not letting me forget it.

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    conservative85 wrote:
    + 1 springerdave

    I would not have given up my gun, he would not have gotten my License, & or my cpl permit. I would have been polite, but I would not have submitted.

    And that's why you, my friend, would be a target for the "barney fifes". if you are going to act like a ******* expect to be treated like one... get off the "I will not submitted" soap box

    - 1 conservative85

    +2 glock 19

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    Glock 19 wrote:
    springerdave wrote:
    I had a similar encounter a while back. I learned from that. Now I carry a recorder and the knowledge that I didn't have at that time. The burden of proof is on LE. If I break no laws I should not be harassed by LEO. Wash, Rinse and Repeat and let them fall on their own sword.springerdave.
    with all do respect sringer this ocer in NC was not harassed, the officers were called to chk it out ...why some one was carrying.

    This is why some LEOs come at ocers with an attitude because the ocer wants to puff out his chest and act like a *******, so if you are polite and show no signs of being an ass then i feel your encounter should in theory come out positive...
    Here in Alpena the officers carry themselves in a very professional manner. They are the poster child for how we should carry ourselves in public. Most people just don't realize just how hard it is to be a robot when you are a human. Pulling over a car with blacked out windows at night has got to be the most fearful thing a police officer can endure. They know this could be their last. So I tend to give some respect for their duty. But smashing ones rights is another matter entirely.

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    Venator wrote:
    Glock 19 wrote:
    has nothing to do with being free its how you present yourself when you have an encounter with LEO's but you are so anti cop i don't think you get the idea,don't care if you are on the bath twp. board that over sees a chief and 3 or 4 officers. I respect your knowledge of the michigan gun laws and the 2A but dude get off your soap box and use some common sense that god gave you
    Pssssst...your ignorance is showing. But all is not lost. You can educate yourself.
    you are the ignorant one big guy..thats why as long as you are involved with mioc i will never pay to be a member. you need to educate yourself in common sense and people skills. you sir are a *******!!!! and a loon

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    Just to let you know one of the reasons I basically disarmed myself was I put myself in the officer's place & knowing I had to put my hand near my gun to get to my wallet it would have made me nervous. Now you have to remember this is a small town & this was probably the LEOs first encounter of this type also. Both LEOs were VERY polite & we actually had a long conversation about handguns & OC. The 2nd LEO REALLY liked my gun. Most cops are just like you & me going to work everyday & trying to get through it with as little hassle as possible.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member
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    Glock 19 wrote:
    springerdave wrote:
    I had a similar encounter a while back. I learned from that. Now I carry a recorder and the knowledge that I didn't have at that time. The burden of proof is on LE. If I break no laws I should not be harassed by LEO. Wash, Rinse and Repeat and let them fall on their own sword.springerdave.
    with all do respect sringer this ocer in NC was not harassed, the officers were called to chk it out ...why some one was carrying.

    This is why some LEOs come at ocers with an attitude because the ocer wants to puff out his chest and act like a *******, so if you are polite and show no signs of being an ass then i feel your encounter should in theory come out positive...
    No? You seem pretty certain his 4A rights (search and seizure) were not violated. Yet, the information in thatOP, while not conclusive, leans further in the other direction--towards 4A violation of his person and his gun. Remember that his consent did not come until after the LEO declared he was going toseize his gun.

    I think the only way one couldconclude he was not harassed is because he didn'tfeel harassed, not becauserights violations didn't occur. And "feeling harassed" has the liability of hinging on the person's perceptions and his knowledge of his rights.

    The real question is what would have happened if he hadpolitely, verbally stood on his 4A and 5A rights? Wouldthere have been additionalbut unpleasantspeech from the cop? Temporary hand-cuffs?

    Being nice to a rights-violator so that he is pleasant while violating your rights is no measure of harassment.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
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    Oh & btw I have since bought a lanyard to keep my cc permit & ID in. SO next time I'll be very polite AGAIN but I'll not be so easily disarmed.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
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    Alpena, Michigan, USA
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    REX681959 wrote:
    Just to let you know one of the reasons I basically disarmed myself was I put myself in the officer's place & knowing I had to put my hand near my gun to get to my wallet it would have made me nervous. Now you have to remember this is a small town & this was probably the LEOs first encounter of this type also. Both LEOs were VERY polite & we actually had a long conversation about handguns & OC. The 2nd LEO REALLY liked my gun. Most cops are just like you & me going to work everyday & trying to get through it with as little hassle as possible.
    Ditto on the "most cops" thing.

  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Glock 19 wrote:
    springerdave wrote:
    I had a similar encounter a while back. I learned from that. Now I carry a recorder and the knowledge that I didn't have at that time. The burden of proof is on LE. If I break no laws I should not be harassed by LEO. Wash, Rinse and Repeat and let them fall on their own sword.springerdave.
    with all do respect sringer this ocer in NC was not harassed, the officers were called to chk it out ...why some one was carrying.

    This is why some LEOs come at ocers with an attitude Because people stand up to authority? because the ocer wants to puff out his chestOr just OCing and wanting to be left alone to continue their lawful activityand act like a *******, You mean like standing up to authority. so if you are polite and show no signs of being an ass then i feel your encounter should in theory In theory Communism works, in theorycome out positive...In theory if LEOs left alone OCers, there would be no encounters good or bad and free people would be allowed to go about their business.
    "Yes, just do as I say and everything will be all right, yes, yes...just walk to the railroad tracks and climb aboard the box car, no, nothing to worry about we are the police and we are here to help you....now hurry along...no more questions. Things will be alright..."


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Glock 19 wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Glock 19 wrote:
    has nothing to do with being free its how you present yourself when you have an encounter with LEO's but you are so anti cop i don't think you get the idea,don't care if you are on the bath twp. board that over sees a chief and 3 or 4 officers. I respect your knowledge of the michigan gun laws and the 2A but dude get off your soap box and use some common sense that god gave you
    Pssssst...your ignorance is showing. But all is not lost. You can educate yourself.
    you are the ignorant one big guy..thats why as long as you are involved with mioc i will never pay to be a member. you need to educate yourself in common sense and people skills. you sir are a *******!!!! and a loon
    It's MOC, Inc.not mioc and attacking the man is still a poor argument and a sign of intellectual bankruptcy. It's easy to attack a man whilehiding his identity behind a screen name.

    But perhaps you should join so you can run for President in November of 2010.

    Cheers,

    Brian Jeffs

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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