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Thread: Yet another family outing tarnished

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    Regular Member bennie1986's Avatar
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    Took my son to see santa at the River Park Square mall here in Spokane, Wa. As allways I was on the lookout for signs preventing firearms on privet property but found none as I proceeded into the mall. We were walking around when I was sarounded by mall security and told to remove my fireare, I chose insted to take our business elseware. Durring my interaction with security I ask were the sign was that cites the policy agenst carrying weapons. The said they were sure it was on the front door, I ask them to show me and they admitted that I was probably not there. They walked me to the door and we verified there is no sign and they said they would be adding a notice on the entrence of the mall, Ill be checking in a few weeks.

    I'm really tired of this crap but this will not dissuade from OC as its more important that ever to stand our ground.

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    bennie1986 wrote:
    SNIP...they said they would be adding a notice on the entrence of the mall...
    This is why we ask members not to question about signs. Now nobody, not even CCers, are going to be allowed to carry in that mall.

    Sorry about your ruined evening. Glad you stood on your rights and took your business elsewhere.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
    Regular Member bennie1986's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    bennie1986 wrote:
    SNIP...they said they would be adding a notice on the entrence of the mall...
    This is why we ask members not to question about signs. Now nobody, not even CCers, are going to be allowed to carry in that mall.

    Sorry about your ruined evening. Glad you stood on your rights and took your business elsewhere.
    Good if people stop going to that mall then maybe someday they will realize people wont do business with a company not willing to stand in line with our rights. Not being informed is not the answer to this issue. I believe that most business dont post signs because they know it will hurt business. We should not be hiding that we are carrying guns when we know its agenst their policy that makes us just as bad a the criminals.

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    bennie1986 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    bennie1986 wrote:
    SNIP...they said they would be adding a notice on the entrence of the mall...
    This is why we ask members not to question about signs. Now nobody, not even CCers, are going to be allowed to carry in that mall.

    Sorry about your ruined evening. Glad you stood on your rights and took your business elsewhere.
    Good if people stop going to that mall then maybe someday they will realize people wont do business with a company not willing to stand in line with our rights. Not being informed is not the answer to this issue. I believe that most business dont post signs because they know it will hurt business. We should not be hiding that we are carrying guns when we know its agenst their policy that makes us just as bad a the criminals.
    I'm not sure "someday" is such a good trade. Iwould like to be able to continue CC in certain locations while the "someday" is worked towards. I'm sure there are others who would like to CC, also.

    Plus, I think you over-estimate the value the mall propertycompany will assign to whatever slight decrease in sales the stores have, if the stores even report it to the mall property company in terms of lost sales to pro-gun customers.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Good if people stop going to that mall then maybe someday they will realize people wont do business with a company not willing to stand in line with our rights.
    What rights are those? There is no right to carry a gun on private property. Do you wish to withdraw your statement?

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    Bennie, it sucks that they ruined your day, but he few lost dollars from the staunch gun rights community will not make a dent in the profits of a mall or store. Also, you don't have a right to carry on private property and they can ban virtually anything they want. I CC when I go to a place I know is not OC friendly, they won't worry about what they cannot see. If it's posted, CC, we do have that option.

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    deanf wrote:
    What rights are those? There is no right to carry a gun on private property. Do you wish to withdraw your statement?
    Let me ask you a question....

    Can you tell the Cops to "NOT" carry on your property? Irregardless, if they are investigating a crime, or if they just pop on over and say "Hi" to you and your family.

    Why, or why not? Think carefully.......

    Respectfully,

    XD

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    Can you tell the Cops to "NOT" carry on your property? Irregardless, if they are investigating a crime, or if they just pop on over and say "Hi" to you and your family.
    Off the top of my head, I would say this:

    Cops, while on official duty, are The State. We have delegated the authority to carry guns to certain arms of The State via our form of government.

    With cops, it's not about the right to carry a gun. The government doesn't have rights, it only has authority. Only the people have rights.

    But to answer your question: No to the first part (investigating a crime, ie: in hot pursuit, or under exigent circumstances) and Yes to the second part, a social contact.

    Now, I would ask you to defend any belief you have that there is an individual right to carry a gun on private property.

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    Time and time again we have posted that malls DO NOT LIKE OC.... I'm willing to bet that 99% of all the malls in Washington state are anti-weapons. I hate going into any mall but there are times that I must. Do I go into the mall unarmed? Hell NO! but knowing the policies I CC.

    While this may be an OC community that I support, there is a time and place for OC.

    Now we have signs going up on the doors. When I have been stopped I mention that I did not see anything against the Open Carry of weapons.

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    bennie1986 wrote:
    Good if people stop going to that mall then maybe someday they will realize people wont do business with a company not willing to stand in line with our rights. Not being informed is not the answer to this issue. I believe that most business dont post signs because they know it will hurt business. We should not be hiding that we are carrying guns when we know its agenst their policy that makes us just as bad a the criminals.
    +1:celebrate

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    Dave The Welder wrote:
    bennie1986 wrote:
    Good if people stop going to that mall then maybe someday they will realize people wont do business with a company not willing to stand in line with our rights. Not being informed is not the answer to this issue. I believe that most business dont post signs because they know it will hurt business. We should not be hiding that we are carrying guns when we know its agenst their policy that makes us just as bad a the criminals.
    +1:celebrate
    +2




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    Both malls in spokane have been no firearm since they opened. Have had 2 friends work in River Park security in the past, I had asked them and they said no firearms. While I agree it probably isn't posted I have seen it in their written policy.

    If you are going to carry into almost any mall in the country, concealed is your only option.

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    I never OC in any of the malls in Spokane, because I know thatmost mallshave no carry policy's and just like M1gunr I do not go unarmed. I also only go to the mall 1 or 2 Xs per year anyway.

    The OC movement is trying to make OC as common a sight as seeing someone with a cell phone. That goal is not going to be achieved by going places where you know you will attract a lot of negative attention. Each time one of us is involved in one of these encounters every bystander in the mall sees an armed individual being escorted off the premises I can guaranty that they think to them selves gun, bad, just look at what happened to that person. Not only that but the next time they see someone OCing somewhere else they will most likly feel the need to go complane to the managment because after all the last time this happenedat the mall the OCer was escorted to the door. Dont underestimate the do good mentality, a lot of people feel powerfull/important when they turn someone in like this. On the other hand if you are somewhere OCing that is acceptableor at least you dont know that you will get kicked out, people noticeyou have a weapon and nothing happens, no one gets shot, no one gets kicked out, after Joe public sees that happen 3 or 4 times they will cease even thinking about it and accept the fact some people carry.

    The more we OC without negative encounters the faster we will be able to OC in the malls. The harder we try to jamb it down their throats the the more resistance we will receive. Be smart, win the war, dont start battles you cant win.

    OK flame away



    Orphan
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

  14. #14
    Regular Member bennie1986's Avatar
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    deanf wrote:
    Good if people stop going to that mall then maybe someday they will realize people wont do business with a company not willing to stand in line with our rights.
    What rights are those? There is no right to carry a gun on private property. Do you wish to withdraw your statement?
    Absolutely not! I am well aware that privet property owners have the right to say they don't want weapons in their establishment. My point is I personally will not be supporting any establishment that is out of line with my values and constitutional rights. Will their have to be compromise? Yes, if the mall is the only place I can purchase a particular itemsuch as aChristmas gift for my son then so be it however; I still want to know all my rights. If I am not suppose to have my gun per policy of a privet property owner then it needs to be posted so I can make an informed decision. I will weigh my options: 1. I will leave my gun in the car 2. Not enter the building 3. Conceal my gun then and risk the possibility of being charged with criminal trespassing (A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree if he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building.). Being in the building knowingly violating the policy would meanI amthere unlawfully.

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    deanf wrote:
    Now, I would ask you to defend any belief you have that there is an individual right to carry a gun on private property.
    There is an individual right to carry a firearm on private property. I have the right to carry my firearm into your house, provided I was invited into your house.

    Now, of course, the property owner has the right to kick you out for exercising your rights if he/she does not approve. This doesn't mean you don't have the right to carry there, it just means you have given up your right to be on the property because you violated their policy. See the difference?

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    it just means you have given up your right to be on the property because you violated their policy
    There is never a right to be on private property, only a license. Excludes owner, of course. And since you are there under license, anything you do there you do under license. A license is not a right, it is a conditional permission.

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    Orphan,

    I remember a time when being a snitch or using the phrase "I'm telling" was NOT cool.

    What ever happened to those days???

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    Something to consider, sometimes the anchor stores in the malls have policies different from the mall owner. For example, the last time I asked the BN store in the Tri-Cities was fine with CC, while the Simon mall the store is attached to is not. Suits me fine as the bookstore's the main reason I ever go there.

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    Commodore76

    I think that "its notcoolto bea rat" went to the same place respect, minding your own business, manners and being polite etcwent. Maybe I 'm just gettin old and grumpy.

    Orphan
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    Orphan wrote:
    Commodore76

    I think that "its notcoolto bea rat" went to the same place respect, minding your own business, manners and being polite etcwent. Maybe I 'm just gettin old and grumpy.

    Orphan
    Nomore than I am.

    I really believe that is a huge problem these days. People no longer feel as though it's ok to be different. To have their own opinions. To a lot of people out there, you either think like they do or you're all f'd up.

    Totally agree with you. Really wish people could stop tellin others how to live. Especially when their lives are FAR from perfect. Something about throwin rocks in a glass house comes to mind.

    My joints were sore when I got up this morning. Is that a sign?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    deanf wrote:
    it just means you have given up your right to be on the property because you violated their policy
    There is never a right to be on private property, only a license. Excludes owner, of course. And since you are there under license, anything you do there you do under license. A license is not a right, it is a conditional permission.
    I agree mostly with Deanf on this except that, when you open you doors to public as in a public business then the rules change, somewhat. Wether you agree with those rules or not.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    it just means you have given up your right to be on the property because you violated their policy
    There is never a right to be on private property, only a license. Excludes owner, of course. And since you are there under license, anything you do there you do under license. A license is not a right, it is a conditional permission.
    I agree mostly with Deanf on this except that, when you open you doors to public as in a public business then the rules change, somewhat. Wether you agree with those rules or not.
    The law agrees in whole with deanf though, unless you are being asked to leave for something covered under a protected class.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    We do NOT have alloidial titles to our land. ALL property is subject to taxation and imminent domain laws. "Private" property? Not even close.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    David.Car wrote:
    While I agree it probably isn't posted I have seen it in their written policy.

    If you are going to carry into almost any mall in the country, concealed is your only option.
    It might be interesting to know if their "written policy" is really there for the Employees of the mall, not the customers. Almost every employer in this country now has a "No Firearms" policy for their workers and knowing the limited ability of many managers to think for themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't attempting to apply an HR Policy to the general public. As for me, I see any sign prohibiting firearms on the premises, that is not supported by law (federal buildings, bars, schools, etc.) as a "Conceal your firearm" sign and sometimes I see it as a "Gun Owners go shop somewhere else" sign.

    Based on recent events, who in their right mind would feel safe in a Mall without their firearm. Add to that Coffee Shops, Restaurants, Convenience Stores and many more public places.

    Private Property owners may have the right to post their property but we, as gun owners who wish to carry, have the right to not shop in their establishments. We may not be the majority but in today's economy our dollars are even more important to their profits. Why the heck do you think Wal-Marts official policy is "follow State Law". As dumb as their employees may seem, those at the top realize that if one million gun owners take only one dollar somewhere else, that's one million dollars that they didn't make. It all adds up so never think our dollars are meaningless.

    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    joeroket wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    it just means you have given up your right to be on the property because you violated their policy
    There is never a right to be on private property, only a license. Excludes owner, of course. And since you are there under license, anything you do there you do under license. A license is not a right, it is a conditional permission.
    I agree mostly with Deanf on this except that, when you open you doors to public as in a public business then the rules change, somewhat. Wether you agree with those rules or not.
    The law agrees in whole with deanf though, unless you are being asked to leave for something covered under a protected class.
    Thats exactly what I meant.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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