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traffic stop, CHP, 4th amendment questions...

Resqu2

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Feb 24, 2008
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Washington County, Virginia, USA
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nova wrote:
SaltH2OHokie wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
He knew you had a permit (suspected you had a gun) because when he ran your tags there is a notation on your file that you have a permit. When that comes up they always ask.
I was under the impression that wasn't the case (tags telling anything about CHP). Furthermore, I drive my sister's car, my fiancee's truck and my dad's truck on a regular basis. None of them are 'permitted', so it certainly doesn't come up in those cases.

It does definitely come to light once they know who you are (driver's license).
When an officer runs your license plate number they are notified if you have a VA CHP. BUT, that only lets the officer know the vehicle's registered owner has a CHP, not the driver nor the passengers...
I'm in Fire and Rescue and always have a scanner on. I have never heard an officer being notified of a CHP when running a tag, the only time I hear it is when they run the DL.
 

ODA 226

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Citizen wrote:
jegoodin wrote:
SNIPthe ACLU puts out a very good video about what to do and not do during a traffic stop.

You mean FlexYourRights? The narrator is former ACLU; FlexYourRights is a separate organization.

Busted: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA



While we are on the subject of videos for new guys. Here is another great video:

Don't Talk to Police by Prof. James Duane of Regent University Law School

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Here's an even better one if you don't understand legal speak. It cuts through all the BS!:

www.spike.com/video/chris-rock-how-not/2458063

 

wylde007

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ProShooter wrote:
+1 Keeping a gun under your leg while driving would make an officer feel as if you were secreting the weapon in a manner so that it was quickly and easily accessible for you to use on him.
When I am not CC I keep my sidearm holstered.

When I am CC and driving (or riding) I place it under my leg while driving because otherwise it digs into my spine in the Check-6 holster I wear SOB.

What the officer "feels" shouldn't come into play (I know that's not the way you're implying it) but rather what the law is. He has no more reason to disarm you for a minor traffic infraction than he does for jaywalking.

I agree 100% with EVERYTHING in jegoodin's response above. STFU. Tell everyone else in the vehicle to STFU . Do not volunteer any information. Ever.

If an officer approaches (in Virginia: non-notify) and asks you about firearms without any advance information about why you were pulled over, get his information and report him. Regardless of what he "feels" it is none of his business. IANAL, BIYAOOMWTWT.
 

ProShooter

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wylde007 wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
+1 Keeping a gun under your leg while driving would make an officer feel as if you were secreting the weapon in a manner so that it was quickly and easily accessible for you to use on him.
When I am not CC I keep my sidearm holstered.

When I am CC and driving (or riding) I place it under my leg while driving because otherwise it digs into my spine in the Check-6 holster I wear SOB.

What the officer "feels" shouldn't come into play (I know that's not the way you're implying it) but rather what the law is. He has no more reason to disarm you for a minor traffic infraction than he does for jaywalking.
As much as I'd love to dive into this one, discretion tells me to just walk away.
 

wylde007

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ProShooter wrote:
As much as I'd love to dive into this one, discretion tells me to just walk away.
By all means.

I'll probably be "learned" by some officer somewhere down the road and my opinion will be rendered moot. I've been Terry stopped, had my ID run (though I was walking and not required to provide it) and had an officer ask me if I was armed because, as we all know, our DMV records have a little check-box that pops up when they run your ID that says whether or not you have a CHP.

He didn't demand that I disarm or even to see the weapon, just asked if I was carrying.

Meh. Carrying a firearm is not in itself a crime, therefor logic SHOULD carry that there is no reason to disarm a lawful citizen for a non-violent/non-arrestable infraction.
 

Mike

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wylde007 wrote:
as we all know, our DMV records have a little check-box that pops up when they run your ID that says whether or not you have a CHP.
Not quite, its the check of VCIN that goves thast info if you have a VA CHP and if that info is entered - my first permit's info was never entered into VCIN per 18.2-308.

Some people now carry only on a non-VA CHP to avoid being listed in VCIN (Virginia Criminal Information Network).
 

wylde007

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That's curious because they can also know simply by running your plates. Unless they have an exclusive info deal with the DMV, they're "checking" to see if you have a CHP simply by running your information which seems like a violation of due process.

Hmmm.
 

kasteer

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Nov 20, 2009
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newb here... reading through this.

Let me see if I get this straight... Stopped by a LEO and I have a CHP. Don't say or offer anything. If he asks obviously answer thurthfully, and if he wants to seize it to make hissituation 'safer'he can, even though its legal. but he can't search for the SN on the pistol.

Is that the gist of it?
 

Thundar

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Citizen wrote:
So, it seems to be legal for police to just seize a gun from the driver during a traffic stop with no other restrictions about needing also separate circumstances indicating some sort of dangerousness.

I'll leave the righteousness and justice questions to your own opinion.

For other questions about your 4th and 5th Amendment rights during police encounters, there is a thread[suP]4[/suP] where I collected all my reference materials.

1. Terry vs Ohio: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZO.html

2. PA vs Mimms: http://supreme.justia.com/us/434/106/case.html

3. US vs Baker: http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/955287.P.pdf

4. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/23936.html



PS: Thanks for the careful punctuation. Reading would be easier if you used capitalization where customary, too. :);)
I strongly disagree Citizen,

All you are talking about is Federal Constitutional Law in the Commonwealth of Virginia. None of the cases cited allows for seizure within the Commonwealth. All those cited cases say is that there is no violation to the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution. None of them say that the Virginia Constitution is void for "Officer Safety"

I believe thatthe extrajudicial seizure of your property is a clear violation of the Virginia Constitution.

Specifically from the Virginia Bill of Rights:

Article 1 Section 1 - possessing property and pursuing and obtaining safety

Article 1 Section 10 - General Warrants of Search or Seizure

Article 1 Section 11 - Deprived of property without due process of law
 

ODA 226

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I always declare I'm CC whenever I have a LEO encounter as a matter of professional courtesy and have NEVER had a LEO attempt to relieve me of my weapon.
 

Hawkflyer

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wylde007 wrote:
...SNIPCarrying a firearm is not in itself a crime, therefor logic SHOULD carry that there is no reason to disarm a lawful citizen for a non-violent/non-arrestable infraction.


If we are discussing logic, perhaps we should broaden the reach a little. Putting the gun on the seat, even under your leg is not logical. Should you have to stop suddenly, or you are in an accident, where will the firearm wind up? Please do not try to tell us that you will not lose control of it. That is what the FBI agents in the Miami shooting thought.

It should be in your holster. If your holster is not comfortable, find one that is, or place the weapon in a properly secured location like a car lock box. They can cost less than a box of ammo and they are very handy to have.

Regards
 

wylde007

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Hawkflyer wrote:
If we are discussing logic, perhaps we should broaden the reach a little. Putting the gun on the seat, even under your leg is not logical. Should you have to stop suddenly, or you are in an accident, where will the firearm wind up? Please do not try to tell us that you will not lose control of it.
Touche`(?):?

I never said I was certain that I would not lose control of it. However, carrying CC, for me and with my frame, is uncomfortable.

Which is why I generally OC, unless I am en-route to somewhere I would prefer to conceal. I didn't say it was ideal, just not lawful (IANAL) for an officer to seize.
 

ODA 226

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Hawkflyer wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
I always declare I'm CC whenever I have a LEO encounter as a matter of professional courtesy and have NEVER had a LEO attempt to relieve me of my weapon.

Oh no! Not again:lol:



+1
We really need to meet over a few beers sometime...do you think Nobama would host us at the White House?
 

carpesignum

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Mar 14, 2009
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i really had/have no problem with the officer taking my firearm, and i understand the safety concern.

(i would have rather it not moved at all but its fine)

i just dident know the legal standing...

all my stuff is in order so it wasn't a problem if he ran it or not, and i figure if i was in his position i would want someone to tell me...

im gunna get a 2nd holster and bolt it under my dash for when im driving...
 

simmonsjoe

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Nov 1, 2009
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Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
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KBCraig wrote:
Of course it's a 4th Amendment violation: he seized your firearm and searched to find if it was reported stolen, without a warrant, probable cause, or reasonable articulable suspicion that crime was afoot.

Good luck on getting a court to rule that way, though.
They have. Mere knowledge isn't sufficient for search and seizure.

you must have "reasonable and articulated suspicion that a crime is afoot."

can someone reference that for me I forget the case.

---
Also some LEO's are under the impression that it is a requirement of your CHP privileges to hand over your firearm for inspection upon request. I haven't read any law that states that though.
 

peter nap

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Valhalla
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carpesignum wrote:
i really had/have no problem with the officer taking my firearm, and i understand the safety concern.

(i would have rather it not moved at all but its fine)

i just dident know the legal standing...

all my stuff is in order so it wasn't a problem if he ran it or not, and i figure if i was in his position i would want someone to tell me...

im gunna get a 2nd holster and bolt it under my dash for when im driving...
in
Since I only OC, I have a cheap leg holster to keep it in while driving. You can attach it about a thousand ways inside the car.

I also have a LEO229 lock on it. I melted a hole through the holster where the trigger guard is. I have a push through trigger lock on a cable that hangs on the holster, If stopped, all I have to do is push the lock through. The officer gets the whole thing if he wants the gun, He isn't going to run the serial number without cutting the holster off.
 

simmonsjoe

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peter nap wrote:
carpesignum wrote:
i really had/have no problem with the officer taking my firearm, and i understand the safety concern.

(i would have rather it not moved at all but its fine)

i just dident know the legal standing...

all my stuff is in order so it wasn't a problem if he ran it or not, and i figure if i was in his position i would want someone to tell me...

im gunna get a 2nd holster and bolt it under my dash for when im driving...
in
Since I only OC, I have a cheap leg holster to keep it in while driving. You can attach it about a thousand ways inside the car.

I also have a LEO229 lock on it. I melted a hole through the holster where the trigger guard is. I have a push through trigger lock on a cable that hangs on the holster, If stopped, all I have to do is push the lock through. The officer gets the whole thing if he wants the gun, He isn't going to run the serial number without cutting the holster off.
thats a sweet idea Peter Nap
 

Hawkflyer

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I realize that in their zeal to respond to posts each day people do not linger at the top pages of the forum very long. So it is no surprise to me that many in this thread (well two of you anyway) may not have noticed a device that may be right up your alley.

Rather than putting the gun in your lap or in the seat, how about we give some business and support to one of OCDOs advertisers and buy this guys product. They are linked (with others) from the top of the main OCDO forum home page. If you are removing the weapon because it is simply uncomfortable and you have a permit to CCW, why not?

I have also used Tucker leather for standard holsters of custom design and they do very nice work. They can make holsters that are comfortable and work well.

Now I do like the contrivance that Peter Nap described. It is OC legal and it is also covered by anti NCIC insurance. With some minor "tweaking" it might even become seizure proof.:lol:

Am I the only one who has ever wondered what a LEO might do about a "Texas Cadillac" with the pistols mounted on the hood? Just before tossing the driver on the hood would the LEO seize the pistols for officer safety?:what:

Regards
 
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