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Thread: Traveling to NC from VA w/VA-CHP

  1. #1
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    Traveling during the holidays from VA to NC (Winston-Salem Area) with a valid VA-CHP, for the holidays; what (exactly) do I need to do WRT NC laws on carry?

    Thx...

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    North Carolina recognizes VA conceal carry permits as does VA recognize NC's permit via reciprocity. Just use common sense and stay out of restaurants that sell AND serve alcohol (the grocery store does not count). Stay off educational property, local government property, look for "no firearm signs" and proceed at your own risk should you choose to enter these places, and if ever approached and questioned by an officer, the first things out of your mouth should be something to the effect of: "Officer, I have a concealed carry permit and I am carrying." When asked present that permit with your ID. And don't drink while carrying!

    Other than that, you should be mostly fine.

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    No need to reinvent the wheel. Check this site.

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/northcarolina.pdf

    If you plan to OC, just do not OC anywhere you cannot CC. That will keep you out of places that do not allow guns. The couple of exceptions are not worth mentioning for a short trip.

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    I want to reiterate what "tecshogun" said, so you are getting it loud and clear.

    Here in NC, we have a "must advise" law if you are CC. ANY TIME you are addressed by an LEO in an "official manner", the FIRST thing out of your mouth needs to be "I have a valid VA (or whatever state) Concealed Handgun Permit, and I am currently carrying." Then wait for further instruction.

    Don't reach for your wallet, or open your coat, or show the LEO your firearm. Don't do ANYTHING, and keep your hands visible, until further instructed. This is ESPECIALLY critical if you are driving a vehicle and are pulled over.

    Hand on the wheel... Eyes on the cop... Polite demeanor... Wait for instructions.

    Even if you are OCing in your car, you should probably advise, because if you've got your firearm in a holster, an approaching LEO outside your vehicle probably can't see your gun, and under NC statutes, that makes it "concealed"...

    I know in VA, you don't have a "must advise" provision in your CC laws, but we do, and you MUST follow it, or you may end up cuffed and face-down in the dirt on the shoulder of the road, or worse...

    I was with a friend who is a VA resident and has a CHP, and we got stopped in Falls Church VA on a burned out tail-light one evening. When the cop addressed my friend, the first thing the cop said was, "Good evening, Mr. blahblah. Are you carrying your firearm tonight?". He'd run the plates, and in VA, if you have a CHP, it comes up when they run your registration.

    Actually it does that here in NC too, but since you're not a NC resident, I don't know if the CHP info is available on the NC computers. But under NC law, you must advise an officer at the FIRST contact.

    Of course, the best way to avoid this is to just not get pulled over...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Here in NC, we have a "must advise" law if you are CC. ANY TIME you are addressed by an LEO in an "official manner", the FIRST thing out of your mouth needs to be "I have a valid VA (or whatever state) Concealed Handgun Permit, and I am currently carrying."
    That's only if you are carrying concealed, right? if you open carry, then no need to worry about this.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    I was with a friend who is a VA resident and has a CHP, and we got stopped in Falls Church VA on a burned out tail-light one evening. When the cop addressed my friend, the first thing the cop said was, "Good evening, Mr. blahblah. Are you carrying your firearm tonight?". He'd run the plates, and in VA, if you have a CHP, it comes up when they run your registration.
    No, he needs to check VCIN - DMV records do not contain CHP info.

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    Mike wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    Here in NC, we have a "must advise" law if you are CC. ANY TIME you are addressed by an LEO in an "official manner", the FIRST thing out of your mouth needs to be "I have a valid VA (or whatever state) Concealed Handgun Permit, and I am currently carrying."
    That's only if you are carrying concealed, right? if you open carry, then no need to worry about this.
    That is a good question but I don't it is very clear.

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    tekshogun wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    Here in NC, we have a "must advise" law if you are CC. ANY TIME you are addressed by an LEO in an "official manner", the FIRST thing out of your mouth needs to be "I have a valid VA (or whatever state) Concealed Handgun Permit, and I am currently carrying."
    That's only if you are carrying concealed, right? if you open carry, then no need to worry about this.
    That is a good question but I don't it is very clear.
    What does the NC state say? I cannot imagine a permit holder must advise re open carry but a normal permitless open carrier would not.

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    Mike wrote:
    tekshogun wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    Here in NC, we have a "must advise" law if you are CC. ANY TIME you are addressed by an LEO in an "official manner", the FIRST thing out of your mouth needs to be "I have a valid VA (or whatever state) Concealed Handgun Permit, and I am currently carrying."
    That's only if you are carrying concealed, right? if you open carry, then no need to worry about this.
    That is a good question but I don't it is very clear.
    What does the NC state say? I cannot imagine a permit holder must advise re open carry but a normal permitless open carrier would not.
    But this person is not permitless. We're told, whether you are carrying concealed or not, if you have a permit, you must inform. At least, that is the information that was taught to me by the professionals teaching the classes. That is why it didn't seem very clear to me if you are ONLY open carrying, but you do have a concealed permit, do you hvae to inform the officer of the permit?


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    tekshogun wrote:
    But this person is not permitless. We're told, whether you are carrying concealed or not, if you have a permit, you must inform. At least, that is the information that was taught to me by the professionals teaching the classes.
    Please cite to the relevat NC statute so we can see the text of the statute.

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    I believe this has been covered before. No your not informing of a permit but that you have a weapon. that being said if your OCing then the officer would know you have one. In a car he would never see it so you should tell him. and no don't lead off with officer I have a gun.

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    Mike wrote:
    No, he needs to check VCIN - DMV records do not contain CHP info.
    Technically this is true. But in practice it's not really what goes on. VA state trooper's computers and many local LEO computer systems AUTOMATICALLY run a VCIN check when a person's DMV files are queries by an officer inthe field, and this would automatically show that the driver had a VA CHP...

    So yeah, the DMV records do mot include CHP info, but in most cases, in practice, when a DMV query is initiated, it automatically runs a VCIN query too, and all that info pops up.

    I'm not sure how the police computer system works in NC, but I believe we have a similar system. I was told in my CHP class that we should never forget to advise, becasue the officer would already know after running our tags...

    As far as OC, well, there really is no such thing as OC in you're in a car and the gun is anywhere but on the passenger seat. If you are wearing it in a holster, it will be considered as concealed under NC law, because it will not be in "plain view" for an approaching officer.

    I have a NC CHP. Most of the time, I OC in a Serpa on the right side. If I'm driving, and have a seatbelt on, you definitely can't see my .45 if approaching from the rear driver's side. So I'll always advise.

    And no matter what the law is in your home state, if you have a concealed permit, and you get stopped and are carrying, you MUST advise in NC. Even if you're ostensibly carrying open...

    And this goes for ANY time an LEO addresses you in an "official manner". Traffic violation stop, accident, even a "roadblock" or "sobriety check". Since you'll be down here near the holidays, you need to remember that.

    Again, I reiterate, if you don't do anything that would get you stopped, you never have to worry about this.

    But in NC, if you have a permit, and are carrying, whether OC or CC, you MUST ADVISE. The "must advise" statute isn't dependent on possession of a firearm, it's contingent on you having a permit to carry concealed...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    But in NC, if you have a permit, and are carrying, whether OC or CC, you MUST ADVISE. The "must advise" statute isn't dependent on possession of a firearm, it's contingent on you having a permit to carry concealed...
    Thats not how i read it....
    The Statutes 14-415.11 and 14.415.21

    § 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
    (a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law. The person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer. In addition to these requirements, a military permittee whose permit has expired during deployment may carry a concealed handgun during the 90 days following the end of deployment and before the permit is renewed provided the permittee also displays proof of deployment to any law enforcement officer.
    § 14‑415.21. Violations of this Article punishable as an infraction and a Class 2 misdemeanor. (a) A person who has been issued a valid permit who is found to be carrying a concealed handgun without the permit in the person's possession or who fails to disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun, as required by G.S. 14‑415.11, shall be guilty of an infraction for the first offense and shall be punished in accordance with G.S. 14‑3.1. In lieu of paying a fine for the first offense, the person may surrender the permit. Subsequent offenses for failing to carry a valid permit or for failing to make the necessary disclosures to a law enforcement officer as required by G.S. 14‑415.11 shall be punished in accordance with subsection (b) of this section.
    (b) A person who violates the provisions of this Article other than as set forth in subsection (a) of this section is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)
    States don’t have rights. People do.

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    mrjam, your reading is probably correct. In practice it is recommended to inform regardless of armed or not. That was one of the few questions that got dodged in my class. I think he knew the answer and did not want to tell an entire class they did not need to inform if unarmed. Personally, I just tell them and hand over the cards. YMMV. I've never gotten a second glance at a checkpoint, just have a nice day Mr. XXXXX

    I just posted this on another thread as well. With the local city system, once you run the tag, the vehicle info comes up. There is a button to check the info for the person the vehicle is registered to. Once this screen is open you see the CCP info. I would assume that most cops open that one up. So if the vehicle is registered in your name and you have a CCP, then the officer can quickly access that info from their vehicle. As interconnected as the databases have become, I would think they could do it for out of state vehicles as well. Though I don't know for sure.

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    mrjam2jab,

    My point wasn't so much that if you're OC, and have a CHP you need to disclose, but rather that if you are OC in a holster and sitting in a car, then by the way the vehicular OC laws are worded, it is concealed, and therefore, even though you are OCing when you get out of the car, while you are in the car, it is technically concealed, because the officer can't see it in plain sight, and therefore you have to disclose if you have a permit.

    If you don't have a permit, it shouldn't be on your hip--it should be on the seat in plain view. And even if you don't have a permit and it's in plain view, (and you don't LEGALLY have to disclose), it's probably a good idea to let an officer know you have a gun in the car...

    Just another instance where having a CHP makes life a LOT easier...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    mrjam2jab,

    My point wasn't so much that if you're OC, and have a CHP you need to disclose, but rather that if you are OC in a holster and sitting in a car, then by the way the vehicular OC laws are worded, it is concealed, and therefore, even though you are OCing when you get out of the car, while you are in the car, it is technically concealed,
    Really?Cite to authority.

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    Well then I must have misunderstood. My citing the statutes was based on your comment:

    The "must advise" statute isn't dependent on possession of a firearm, it's contingent on you having a permit to carry concealed...
    Which to me sounds like you are saying it doesnt matter if you have a gun, if you have a permit you must advise.
    States don’t have rights. People do.

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    (copied from another thread: I don't take credit for the research)

    You must inform the LEO if you have a permit and are CC'ing. See caps.

    14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
    (a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law. THE PERSON SHALL CARRY THE PERMIT TOGETHER WITH VALID IDENTIFICATION WHENEVER THE PERSON IS CARRYING A CONCEALED HANDGUN, SHALL DISCLOSE TO ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER THAT THE PERSON HOLDS A VALID PERMIT AND IS CARRYING A CONCEALED HANDGUN WHEN APPROACHED OR ADDRESSED BY THE OFFICER, AND SHALL DISPLAY BOTH THE PERMIT AND THE PROPER IDENTIFICATION UPON THE REQUEST OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. In addition to these requirements, a military permittee whose permit has expired during deployment may carry a concealed handgun during the 90 days following the end of deployment and before the permit is renewed provided the permittee also displays proof of deployment to any law enforcement officer.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...14-415.11.html

    General GS codes site, if interested.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascript...StatutesTOC.pl

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    JDriver1.8t wrote:
    (copied from another thread: I don't take credit for the research)

    You must inform the LEO if you have a permit and are CC'ing. See caps.

    14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
    (a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law. THE PERSON SHALL CARRY THE PERMIT TOGETHER WITH VALID IDENTIFICATION WHENEVER THE PERSON IS CARRYING A CONCEALED HANDGUN, SHALL DISCLOSE TO ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER THAT THE PERSON HOLDS A VALID PERMIT AND IS CARRYING A CONCEALED HANDGUN WHEN APPROACHED OR ADDRESSED BY THE OFFICER, AND SHALL DISPLAY BOTH THE PERMIT AND THE PROPER IDENTIFICATION UPON THE REQUEST OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. In addition to these requirements, a military permittee whose permit has expired during deployment may carry a concealed handgun during the 90 days following the end of deployment and before the permit is renewed provided the permittee also displays proof of deployment to any law enforcement officer.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...14-415.11.html

    General GS codes site, if interested.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascript...StatutesTOC.pl
    Well, that clears it up - no reason to disclose to officer you have a permit to conceal unless you are carrying concealed; sine one can open carry in vehicles without needing a permit to conceal, there would be no reason to notify if open carrying in a vehcile even if you have a permit to conceal, except perhaps out of an abundance of caution to avoid a dispute over the facts of whether the gun was concealed by say a seatbelt, etc.

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    JD, I started to last night, thanks.

    THIS IS NOT LAW!! It is a booklet released by the AG. No where in NC law does it tell you how to OC a handgun in a vehicle, as far as I can find. There may be case law that I am unaware of.

    Mike, abundance of caution is a great way to put it. Personally, if I have a gun on me OC or CC, I would mention my permit. Simply because most LEO's know what it takes to get one, ie training and background check. YMMV

    Take this for what you paid for it. Where vehicles are concerned I have always heard it had to be on the dash or seat to be OC. This site is the first place I have ever heard it mentioned to wear it holstered in the car as OC. I understand the argument, I agree with it too, just saying.

    "D. Transporting Weapons
    Given this general prohibition of carrying concealed weapons, individuals must be ever vigilant to ensure their particular situation cannot be construed as concealing a weapon, either on or about them, without being properly authorized to do so with a valid North Carolina, or recognized out-of-state concealed handgun permit. Therefore, the permittee's accessibility to the weapon is of prime importance. It is for these reasons, that when transporting a weapon in a vehicle, even greater care must be exercised to ensure that the weapon is not concealed, and within the ready access to an occupant of the vehicle. North Carolina law does not specifically address how to transport a weapon in an automobile. Therefore, the central question becomes: when is the weapon concealed and readily accessible to an occupant of an automobile? Obviously, a weapon would be concealed and readily accessible, and therefore in violation of North Carolina law, if it were placed in such areas of a vehicle as under the seat of the automobile; in a bag in the back seat; or in some other manner is covered or hidden within the easy reach of an occupant of the vehicle. It is our recommendation that firearms should not be carried in a glove compartment regardless of whether the compartment is locked or not.

    While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback, of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual's purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer's and the vehicle's occupants' safety. Another obvious drawback is that a valuable weapon may be in plain view for potential thieves to see. The prohibition to carrying concealed weapons applies not only to handguns and other weapons commonly thought of as being easily hidden, but also to "long guns" as well. Therefore, shotguns and rifles concealed behind the seat of pickup trucks, and elsewhere in other vehicles, could similarly violate North Carolina law."


    http://www.ncsheriffs.org/images/200...Laws%20Pub.pdf

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    Folks - thanks for the information; I plan to CC most of the time there, and if I do haven LEO encounter will advise of status.

    Again thanks for the information, I know more today, then I did yesterday - based on the information presented here.

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    Was OC'ing once on my passenger seat and got pulled over. The LEOs hassled me a bit about not informing them about the gun right away. They seemed to be suggesting that I was breaking the law, even though I know I wasn't. They didn't want to clarify whether there is a distinction between CC vs OC as far as informing. IMO, the decision to inform when OC'ing is personal and probably can't be made ahead of time. Every situation is different.

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    Although "concealed" is not officially defined under North Carolina statute, it is defined as a "functional interpretation" by the NC Department of Crime Control and Public Safety, and this is the interpretation of "concealed" that NC LEO's function under:
    Handguns in Vehicles
    It is unlawful to carry a concealed handgun in a vehicle unless the person has a North Carolina concealed carry permit. A person who is not a convicted felon may carry a handgun if not concealed. A handgun is concealed in a vehicle if it cannot be readily seen by a person approaching and if it is readily accessible. A handgun under the front seat or in an unlocked glove box or console is illegal. A handgun openly displayed or in a locked glove box, locked console, or in the trunk is lawful.
    taken from the NCDCCPS website:
    http://www.nccrimecontrol.org/Index2...,000935,000941

    I have a CHP, so if I'm carrying in my car in NC, I MUST advise. I carry in a Serpa holster on my right hip (3:00 position) most of the time, OC. If I am seated in the drivers seat and have a seat belt on, my firearm is NOT visible from someone approaching from the driver's side, and is only visible from the passenger side if nobody is sitting in the passenger seat, and even then, only after reaching the window. (my vehicle has big bucket-style seats) Since it is not visible from outside the vehicle--even though it is in an OC holder, and not covered by clothing, under NC "interpretation" (and practice in the field by LEO's) it is considered "concealed".

    Vehicle carry is the second main reason I got my CHP (first being the ability to carry at work while not causing any issues with customers).

    I would always advise, even if it's in "plain view" on the seat. I feel that it's better to be up-front, than to have some LEO be "surprised" when he spots a firearm, and then drag me from my car and hold me at gunpoint face down in the gravel until he "sorts things out"...

    I know there are a lot of folks out there who SAY they will be as non-cooperative as they can be, but the way I see it, is that technically, LEO's (the good ones at least) and OC/CC folks are on the "same side". The more courteous, polite, and cooperative we ALL are with each other, the better off everyone will be. Personally I don't want to be "that guy" who all the local LEO's think is some loudmouthed, preachy, provocative A-hole who is out there trying to cause a scene. I have found that when your local LEO's know and respect you, they are a lot more open-minded about the whole OC thing.

    If an LEO comes to the situation with an attitude and I'm polite and informative, I'll have all that on my voice recorder, and the courts can then decide who was out of line if it comes to that.

    If I get pulled over these days, it's probably be cause I really DID do something wrong. So I figure I owe it to myself to be as up-front and cooperative as I can, to try and smooth things over, and expedite the exercise as calmly as I can.

    Now, when I was a lot younger, and driving a 1969 VW Beetle with Grateful Dead stickers in the window, and had hair to my shoulders, I used to get pulled over for all sorts of non-existent violations. I could have taken a "you're violating my rights" stance, and ended up like a lot of other long-haired Beetle-driving kids--face-down in the gravel on some back road in Prince William county VA. But I always found that a smile and a polite demeanor usually changed the atmosphere considerably. (Of course, handing my DOJ Contractor's Pass or Quantico Range Pass to the LEO with my DL probably didn't hurt...)

    There is no denying that some LEO's are on a power trip, and actually "fish" for excuses to mess with people and abuse their "authority". But that is what the courts are for...

    Two days after I bought my HHR, I was driving in VA doing some shopping after having dropped my wife off at a training seminar (her car was in the shop). I had MD temp tags, a MD drivers License (I was living in MD at the time, and NOT carrying), and because I had those cardboard temp tags and it was starting to look rainy, I had purchased a pair of "smoked" acrylic license plate covers at an auto parts store in VA that day. Driving down I-66 in Fairfax county, I got pulled over by a VA State Trooper, and he told me that smoked plate covers were illegal in VA. I tried to explain that my car was registered in MD, and as such he couldn't hold me to VA "safety inspection" regulations. I was polite, but firm, and let him know that I knew VA laws (having previously been a VA resident for 15 years). He didn't cite me, but he did give me a copy of the statute he said I was violating (which in fact, clearly stated that smoked covers were a violation of VA Safety Inspections, and would not be passed for cars registered in VA). I believe it was my calm, but firm and authoritative demeanor that prevented him from citing me. But I also believe that my firm stance helped too, because he realised if he DID cite me, I was the kind of guy who would drive back to Fairfax to show up for my court date to contest it, rather than pay the fine, and the charge would be thrown out because I wasn't a VA resident, and the vehicle wasn't registered (or even purchased) in VA.

    It all boils down to knowing when to pick your fights, and knowing the law, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, not being an A-Hole about it. If you can remain calm, rational, and polite, and not get preachy or excited, chances are, the cops who know they are trying to pull a fast one on you will walk away, and the ones who are just plain ignorant will probably just cite you anyway and then go away--and THEN you can have your triumphant victory in a court, in front of a Judge and other LEO's, which is one of the worst punishments you can dole out to the "bad apples" who wear badges. The bad ones are sociopathic control freaks, and if you can prove they were ignorant and incompetent in front of their peers and authority figures (judges), that is like sticking a really pig pin into their ballooning egos.

    OC is a game, of sorts. It's a game with some VERY strange, badly-defined, constantly mutable rules. We owe it to ourselves and to the "OC Movement" to know the rules inside and out--BETTER than the LEO's, so that we KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are right. Being rude, preachy, and confrontational with cops--even the obviosly bad ones--is not serving anything except THEIR own agenda of provocation and control.

    If you remain polite, and are forthright and informative, and have it all on a recording, then the courts wil sort it out, and the courts will rule in your favor if you are, in fact, in the right. That way, in the isolated and rare case when we are harassed by a power-hungry bad-apple LEO, we can let the "hammer of justice" fall on these bad apples when we stand before the Bar...

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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