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Thread: 2 actions from firing the gun

  1. #1
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    I have often wondered how this could be interpreted. I had always been told that it means no round in the chamber. so the 2 actions are racking a round and pulling the trigger. so if pulling the trigger is one action then any other action you HAVE to do before that should count as the other action. because you CANT pull the triger without doing said action. what brought this up is my new serba holser. the trigger is completely blocked by the holster and in order to fire the gun i have to pust the release button on the side of the holster and draw the firearm. I think this should count as the first action and then the trigger pull is the second. Thy have proven that it does not need to be 2 locks or safety's as it is just an ACTION, as is pulling the trigger. And i CANT pull the trigger when the gun is holstered at all. so does that make my holster a trigger lock that i have to disengage before i want to fire the gun. I think people have just assumed it ment that no round chambered and a trigger pull was what was ment. but i say read it how its written, 2 actions to fire. maybe i'm just tired and need to go to bed. I know thy say it must be unloaded but i just like to nit-pick

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    I believe that the two actions must be performed on the weapon, therefore you serpa's lock would not count.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    You would need to keep the chamber, or "firing position" empty regardless of the amount of "actions" required to fire your gun. (see part 1 in red)

    Also, I don't think any judge or jury would interpret this definition in blue to include mechanisms of the holster.




    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    thanks my friend. i just had a thought wheni saw my holster thats all and though i would ask.

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    First action - draw the weapon

    Second action - Aim the weapon

    fire the weapon

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    First action - draw the weapon

    Second action - Aim the weapon

    fire the weapon
    LOL, nice!

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    Regular Member redreed's Avatar
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    I used to think it was okaytocarry one in the pipe because removing the safety would be a mechanical action. However, if removing the safety is first and pulling thetrigger is the second action, thenthatwould mean you hada round in the firing position which is specifically prohibited in the statute. I guess that was their intent in putting it there.

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    redreed wrote:
    I used to think it was okaytocarry one in the pipe because removing the safety would be a mechanical action. However, if removing the safety is first and pulling thetrigger is the second action, thenthatwould mean you hada round in the firing position which is specifically prohibited in the statute. I guess that was their intent in putting it there.
    You still have to retrieve/draw the weapon (1st action) before you flip the safety off (2nd action). At least that would be "our" idea of 2 actions from firing the weapon. Depending on what state you are in, the courts may have some other silly notion.

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    The two actions have to be with the firearm, not the holster. It's pretty clear in Utah law when you read it. It's talking about the firearm, and never mentions anything else.

    76-10-502
    .
    When weapon deemed loaded.
    (2)Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.

    It's talking about the firearm, and never mentions anything else.

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    When ever in doubt read the State Code.

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    Regular Member redreed's Avatar
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    Hehe. If it were me personally, I would consider the mechanical action of turning my head to acquire the target to be the first mechanical action. Anything between that and the trigger pull is just fluff time.

    I must confess though, I do not carry in the pipe unless I am entering an area I consider higher than normal threat. I have this thing about blowing my goodies off. But thatshould be (and is)MY decision. Not the gov's.

    Red



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    Revolver "unloaded"

    My question is to do with a revolver. I have read and heard 2 different interpretations of an unloaded revolver. If I have a 5 shot revolver and leave the position empty (4 shot) where the hammer will strike when the action is worked would this be considered an "unloaded" revolver? I ask because I read on a forum that I would need to turn a 5 shot revolver into a 3 shot revolver because I should remove the round directly in front of the un-cocked hammer and the next round in line on the wheel. Thoughts are greatly appreciated.

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rains331 View Post
    My question is to do with a revolver. I have read and heard 2 different interpretations of an unloaded revolver. If I have a 5 shot revolver and leave the position empty (4 shot) where the hammer will strike when the action is worked would this be considered an "unloaded" revolver? I ask because I read on a forum that I would need to turn a 5 shot revolver into a 3 shot revolver because I should remove the round directly in front of the un-cocked hammer and the next round in line on the wheel. Thoughts are greatly appreciated.
    Welcome to OCDO.

    You might have done better that to post to a 7 yo necro thead.

    That said:
    "IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A CONCEALED FIREARM PERMIT - the firearm must be unloaded and require two actions to fire. In Utah, a round in "firing position" = loaded.

    If semi-auto, no loaded round in chamber but magazine may be loaded. (rack slide = one action plus pull trigger = 2 actions). A cocked and locked 1911 is loaded, and therefore illegal without a CFP.

    If a revolver, the chamber under the hammer AND the next one in rotation must be empty. This gets you around the loaded firearm definition in Utah (if the chamber under the hammer has a round, then TECHNICALLY there is a loaded round in firing position even though PHYSICALLY and FUNCTIONALLY that round won't fire as the trigger will first rotate the cylinder).

    Two pulls of trigger = two actions. This leaves you two down on a revolver, and at a further disadvantage.
    http://www.icarryutah.com/opencarry.htm
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-27-2016 at 04:44 PM. Reason: fixed
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...light=revolver

    this should cut down some repeat posts...

    ipse
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    I'm not getting the point.

    If in Utah (the Utah forum), is the OP saying that conceal carrying an 'unloaded firearm' is OK without a permit in that state, and one not in the chamber is 'unloaded'?

    That's strange. Will the legislatures ever run out of spaghetti code on self-defense statutes?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I'm not getting the point.

    If in Utah (the Utah forum), is the OP saying that conceal carrying an 'unloaded firearm' is OK without a permit in that state, and one not in the chamber is 'unloaded'?
    No. And Utah law doesn't state that either.

    Utah has two distinct laws regarding carrying a gun generally (in addition to a few off limits locations).

    76-10-504 is the statute that bans carrying a concealed firearm (in many locations unless you have a permit to carry).

    76-10-505 is the statute that generally bans carrying a "loaded" gun in public unless you have a permit.

    However, the definition of what constitutes "loaded" is contained in 76-10-502. It is here that we get the understanding that in Utah a gun is not considered loaded if more than a single action is required to discharge the gun and if there is no round in firing position. In simple terms on a semi-auto, empty chamber is legally not "loaded" even if there is a fully charged magazine in the gun.

    So, in Utah without a permit (and ignoring federal GFSZ with their 1000' as the crow flies exclusion range), it is legal to OC if there isn't a round in the chamber. We call this "Utah Carry" or "Israeli Carry" based on the fact that Israeli military forces carry an empty chamber.

    A careful reading of the laws to which I've linked, will reveal a fairly large number of situations and locations in which one can legally carry concealed and/or fully loaded in Utah even without having a permit to carry. But in terms of walking down a sidewalk in downtown Salt Lake City, this is a reasonable first pass assumption.

    It is not legal advice, I don't go to jail if something here is inaccurate and somebody else acts on it, etc, and so on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    That's strange. Will the legislatures ever run out of spaghetti code on self-defense statutes?
    Short of the votes for a flat out repeal of bad laws, politics is the art of the possible. Sometimes the key to making incremental improvements is to write a bill that appears to make a modest change to existing law but that actually makes a bigger change than it appears. In other words, there is a lot of history in most statutes. Rarely do legislators start with a clean slate.

    But as long as things move in the right direction, we don't complain too much.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 07-27-2016 at 06:33 PM.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    NAA mini revolver can be fully loaded, as also a Remington 1858 revolver. Both have notches that put all rounds out of firing position(in between), and take two actions to fire. Any single action with a hammer mounted firing pin with no safety bar can be carried also fully loaded IMO. This is the way I carry 51 Navy cartridge conversions, the FP rests between head cases, no cartridge is lined up with the barrel, and still takes two actions to fire. Transfer bar firearms will not work that way, without a FP resting between cases the cylinder will rotate to an illegal position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rains331 View Post
    My question is to do with a revolver. I have read and heard 2 different interpretations of an unloaded revolver. If I have a 5 shot revolver and leave the position empty (4 shot) where the hammer will strike when the action is worked would this be considered an "unloaded" revolver? I ask because I read on a forum that I would need to turn a 5 shot revolver into a 3 shot revolver because I should remove the round directly in front of the un-cocked hammer and the next round in line on the wheel. Thoughts are greatly appreciated.
    Welcome.

    I'll plagiarize shamelessly from a couple of my recent posts over on utahconcealedcarry.com to answer your question with more detail than you probably wanted:

    Let's start with the code, which is at 76-10-502. Ignoring black powder firearms, here is the relevant portion:


    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.

    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.

    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.

    (3)...


    Ok. Usual caveats. I'm not a lawyer, I don't go to jail if any of this is wrong and you act on it, etc. My best understanding and application of this code is as follows:

    So, under (1) if a round is "in the firing position" the firearm is loaded. A round under the hammer is in firing position, even if that round cannot be fired via the normal means. Even though cocking the gun would rotate the cylinder and cause this round not to fire, at the moment, the round is in firing position. The gun is loaded. I expect this goes back to the days of non-drop-safe firearms where a revolver with a live round under the hammer was an ND hazard if the gun were dropped.

    Now, look at (2). Where does a round need to be to be fired through "the manual operation of any mechanism once"? Put another way, can ANY round be fired through the manual operation of any mechanism once?

    DA Uncocked: If the gun is a DA and uncocked, then pulling the trigger will rotate the cylinder one chamber, cock the hammer, and then drop the hammer on the cylinder that just rotated into position. This will cause a round to fire if the round is in the next up chamber.

    DA Cocked: If the gun is a DA and is cocked, then pulling the trigger will cause the hammer to fall onto the chamber under hammer. The next chamber will not fired by pulling the trigger once.

    SA Uncocked: If the gun is an SA, but uncocked, then pulling the trigger has no effect. No round will be fired.

    SA Cocked: If the gun is an SA and it is cocked, then pulling the trigger causes the hammer to fall on the chamber already under the hammer causing it to fire. But this case is covered by (1).

    Simply put then, an SA revolver must have one chamber empty to be "Utah unloaded": The chamber under the hammer.

    A DA needs either one or two chambers empty to be "Utah unloaded": If cocked, just the chamber under the hammer. If not cocked, both the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber up.

    There is an exception. Some revolvers like the NAA mini-revolvers (and others than WalkingWolf has reminded us about), have a notch between chambers into which the hammer can be parked. In this position, there is no round in firing position since the cylinder is halfway between two chambers. So we are covered under (1) for not being loaded. Assuming the revolving is a SA (as the NAA mini-revolvers are), pulling the trigger with the hammer down in this parked position has no effect. So there is no single mechanism that will cause any other round to fire and we are covered under (2) as well. Such a gun can be carried with all chambers loaded and still be considered "Utah Unloaded" as long as the hammer is resting in the safety slot between chambers.

    Also, if carrying sans permit, be aware of locations where you cannot (generally) legally possess a gun even if it is unloaded.

    Under State law, this includes all schools and school grounds K-12, plus post secondary (ie college campuses). It also includes day care centers, including the room where the day care is located if situated in a private residence.

    Under federal law, guns are (generally) banned in all K-12 schools, as well as on the grounds, and for a distance of 1000 feet out from the edge of the school grounds, as the crow flies, without regard to how far one would actually have to travel to get to the school grounds. While this law is rarely enforced in the absence of a "real" crime, it is on the books and you should be aware of it and make an informed opinion as to the risks.

    In urban areas of Utah it can be difficult to map out a course where one can travel on foot without crossing the 1000 foot exclusion zone created by the federal gun free school zone law. In rural Utah towns, the three schools (grammar, middle, high) might well make the entire city off limits to permit free carry.

    Again, I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and so on and so forth.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 07-27-2016 at 06:46 PM.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...light=revolver

    this should cut down some repeat posts...

    ipse

    guess not, huh...

    ipse
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    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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