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Thread: Trying somthing new for me

  1. #1
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    I have been OC'ing for over a year now.

    Today I have commited myself to OpenCarry while in uniform.

    I will only do this if:

    1. I am off of the installation.

    2. I am going somewhere after or before my duty and I have not been able to change into civilian clothes of changing is unfeasable.

    3. I will use a personalholster that is a commonly used in Iraq and Afghanistan but is not one that I signed for from the military andis notowned by the military.

    The bottom line is this, I and all others in the military who can legally carry a firearm have to right to defend ourselves if we are incivilian clothes or in uniform.

    My argument for this if there is one to be had. Major Hasan, and PVT William Long in Arkansas. Military members have become targets of attacks.

    WhenI leave my work and pass throughthose post gatesI am acting asa private citizen. If am at wal-mart buying groceries, I am not buying them for or as a representative of the armed forces.



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    Understandable. But even when off duty you still represent the United States Government, especially if you're wearing your uniform. People are still going to connect that since you're in the military you're entitled to carry. On the other hand, I'd definitely make sure this is cool with your command. For some reason I don't think armed military members in uniform walking around buying grocery sounds all too kosher.

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    OC-Aviator wrote:
    I have been OC'ing for over a year now.

    Today I have commited myself to OpenCarry while in uniform.

    I will only do this if:

    1. I am off of the installation.

    2. I am going somewhere after or before my duty and I have not been able to change into civilian clothes of changing is unfeasable.

    3. I will use a personalholster that is a commonly used in Iraq and Afghanistan but is not one that I signed for from the military andis notowned by the military.

    The bottom line is this, I and all others in the military who can legally carry a firearm have to right to defend ourselves if we are incivilian clothes or in uniform.

    My argument for this if there is one to be had. Major Hasan, and PVT William Long in Arkansas. Military members have become targets of attacks.

    WhenI leave my work and pass throughthose post gatesI am acting asa private citizen. If am at wal-mart buying groceries, I am not buying them for or as a representative of the armed forces.

    While I TOTALLY agree with where your head is, as former military, I can tell you that my COC would havetold me. While I am wearing the uniform, I was representing that branch of service. The last thing civilians want to see, is armed military personnel walking around. Posse Comitatus Act being violated or some sillyness.

    You might set of a whole new set of conspiracy theories! Lol.

    Seriously, most folks will not be able to tell the difference between your duty holster and your personal carry. While I served, I almost always CC'd. Till I got to the front gate, that is.

    Just my $.02 as to how that might be taken. Besides, if you have a sneak attack, such as what happened to the Soldiers at Ft. Hood, you may want to have your defense be your little secret.

    Thank you for continuing to stand the watch!

  4. #4
    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    I have a feeling, that since you will be in uniform, that you will go largely "unchallenged", or noticed. The only folks that might raise an eye at all, I'm guessing, would be from another member of your unit, or another active duty individual.

    I probably get beat up for this, but you might go and see Top, let him know of your intentions, so that when the old man calls him, or what have you he has a heads up.

    Not saying you need permission by any means, but while in uniform and representing your unit, a little courtesy and all.............................

  5. #5
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I as a civilian, would actually find it comforting to see our military ALWAYS armed. I wouldnt think that an unarmed military would be able to protect America much less themselves.
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    Check your services uniform regulations first. (Yes, they take precedence.)

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    This is my understanding (IMHO)

    You may not OC while in military uniform.

    Unlike a civilian job of a 9-5. In uniform you are "on-duty" 24/7.

    Unlike a civilian job your commander owns you and if they hear of such action (especially assuming it would be a negative notice - you're just asking for negative attention from your CO). I'm sure they'll come up with some Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) action.

    I would change into civilian clothes.


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    OC-Aviator wrote:

    Today I have commited myself to OpenCarry while in uniform.
    Well, I don't know a thing about military policy & procedure, or what you ought to do to CYA, but I say good on you all the same.

    Who was it in the first place who decided that the military weren't responsible enough to carry a sidearm in public??
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    It's been 40 years since I last wore a Military Uniform so I don't know what current reg's are. If it is not a violation of any standing regulation or order, go for it.

    somequestions though, where are you going to keep the weapon while on duty. Are you allowed to have it in your possession while on Post? If not, then even storage in your POV would be prohibited while on the base. If you keep it in your vehicle, and the vehicle is parked off base during work hours, then how do you insure it's security? Lastly, if you keep your weapon in your off-post quarters, why not just take a few extra minutes and change to civies?
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    Can anyone cite a specific Army Regulation or DoD directive that explicitly states that wearing/carrying of a privately owned firearm is prohibited in uniform, off duty and off post.

    Do not cite Title 10-Posse Comitatus, that only has to do with federal troops acting in a capacity of civilian law enforcement, which is not what I would be doing. I would be minding my own business.

    I dont see it in AR-670-1 "the wear and appearance of army uniforms"

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    NavyLT wrote:
    It is a violation of ALL services' uniform regulations to wear a personal firearm, not issued or in the line of duty, while in uniform. How hard is it to change into civilian clothes to carry your gun. Sorry, as a 26 year military veteran, I cannot offer support for this action.
    Are you saying you don't support this action based on it being a violation of the law? Or are you not in support of this action based on your personal opinion?

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    NavyLT wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    It is a violation of ALL services' uniform regulations to wear a personal firearm, not issued or in the line of duty, while in uniform. How hard is it to change into civilian clothes to carry your gun. Sorry, as a 26 year military veteran, I cannot offer support for this action.
    Are you saying you don't support this action based on it being a violation of the law? Or are you not in support of this action based on your personal opinion?
    I am saying that I will not support a blatant violation of regulations. You don't like the military regulations, than you get out or go AWOL if it is that serious.
    Where does your personal opinion stand, with law and regulation aside?

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    So If I am OC'ing or even CC'ing in uniform and I use my weapon to prevent loss of life. Does this mean I should punishment in the UCMJ.

    Do I even have to quote the "12 than 6" phrase?

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    NavyLT wrote:
    OC-Aviator wrote:
    So If I am OC'ing or even CC'ing in uniform and I use my weapon to prevent loss of life. Does this mean I should punishment in the UCMJ.

    Do I even have to quote the "12 than 6" phrase?
    Should you face punishment under the UCMJ? NO, you SHOULDN'T. Will you? That's up to your Commanding Officer. Now, if you are caught CC or OC in uniform, in a non-self defense situation.... I am sorry, but you are GUILTY of violating a general order - the uniform regulations - there is no getting around that. Do I like to enforce all the regulations? NO. Is it my duty? YES.
    I guess it's up to you and I to write to congress to get this law overturned.

  15. #15
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    NavyLT wrote:
    OC-Aviator wrote:
    So If I am OC'ing or even CC'ing in uniform and I use my weapon to prevent loss of life. Does this mean I should punishment in the UCMJ.

    Do I even have to quote the "12 than 6" phrase?
    If it is that important to you than get out of the military and then work to change the regulation - OR - abide by the regulation while in the military and work to change the regulation.

    Let me ask you this question - would you go to lunch with your Commanding Officer, in town, in uniform, and open carry your firearm?
    Wait, is this a law, or just a regulation? If it's a regulation, then by definition, how can you be punishable via court martial and be charged criminally?

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    OC-Aviator wrote:
    So If I am OC'ing or even CC'ing in uniform and I use my weapon to prevent loss of life. Does this mean I should punishment in the UCMJ.

    Do I even have to quote the "12 than 6" phrase?
    If it is that important to you than get out of the military and then work to change the regulation - OR - abide by the regulation while in the military and work to change the regulation.

    Let me ask you this question - would you go to lunch with your Commanding Officer, in town, in uniform, and open carry your firearm?
    Wait, is this a law, or just a regulation? If it's a regulation, then by definition, how can you be punishable via court martial and be charged criminally?
    http://www.npc.navy.mil/CommandSupport/USNavyUniforms/UniformRegulations/Chapter1/1201.htm

    5. REGULATIONS. Each prescribing authority will publish uniform guidelines. They must be punitively en¬*forceable with the force of a general order and thus are recommended for review by the cognizant Judge Advocate to ensure enforceability. Each prescribing authority shall send a copy of their instruction to Deputy Chief of Naval Opera¬*tions (N131U), 2 Navy Annex, Room 3024, Washington, DC, 20370-5000.

    According to the Navy, it is a "General Order." Disobey at your own risk. I do not advise taking that risk. It isn't worth it.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    So basically, even though it's not a criminal violation of any kind (civilian or military justice) it can still show a huge derogatory mark on your history, which could potentially lead to a less than honorable discharge? In other words, not a good idea.

  18. #18
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Dont chance a DOD. I was rejected from joining our "armed" services because of my eyesight, I signed up wanting to retire from the military. Why take a chance on screwing up something that can better your life. I know from my friends in the military, that you just dont go against the grain.
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  19. #19
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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    So basically, even though it's not a criminal violation of any kind (civilian or military justice) it can still show a huge derogatory mark on your history, which could potentially lead to a less than honorable discharge? In other words, not a good idea.
    It is more than "derogatory." It is not a good thing to be found guilty of disobeying a general order.
    http://www.tpub.com/content/administ.../12966_125.htm
    Date of that link unknown, but it references disobedience of a general order to be a court martial offense, not an NJP.


    Art. 92 violation.

    http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punit.../a/mcm92_2.htm
    Maximum punishment.
    (1) Violation or failure to obey lawful general order or regulation. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
    (2) Violation of failure to obey other lawful order. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.
    • Note: For (1) and (2), above, the punishment set forth does not apply in the following cases: if in the absence of the order or regulation which was violated or not obeyed the accused would on the same facts be subject to conviction for another specific offense for which a lesser punishment is prescribed; or if the violation or failure to obey is a breach of restraint imposed as a result of an order. In these instances, the maximum punishment is that specifically prescribed else wherefor that particular offense.
    (3) Dereliction in the performance of duties.
    • (A) Through neglect or culpable inefficiency. Forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months and confinement for 3 months.
      (B) Willful. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.
      Are you willing to stand on principle with a possibility of a dishonorable discharge?


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    OC-Av, you may wish to reconsider your post. You have just given notice of intent to willfully disobey a general order or regulation.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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