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Thread: Assisting Officers?

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    Regular Member Mech's Avatar
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    Good morning/afternoon all,

    I'm watching the Lakewood police officers' memorial procession with tears of pride in my eyes, and I have a question:

    suppose that (God forbid) a situation like this was to happen again, where we see police officers underattack and are being gunned down, and we happen to be 1) carrying, whether it be OC or CC, 2) we're in a position where we can draw, shoot the assailant(s) without great risk of hurting anyone else, should we do it? What would the regulations be in regards to that?

    Again, I'm not trying to sound like doing something heroic, just want to know if there's anything I can do to prevent situations like this from happening in the future. Of course, the chances of me running into a situation like that is very slim, and although I hope to God that situations like this never happens again, should I really be placed in a situation like that, I'd like to help.

    My thoughts and prayers are with the officers, their families, their brothers and sisters on the force, and to everyone out there who put their lives on the line just so I can sit here and type this message in peace. Thank you all.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    If someone has been shot, and they OBVIOUSLY need help, sure. Otherwise, it's not worth the lawsuit that might be thrown on you..... some people have been charged just for helping out people at car accidents and such...


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    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    Poosharker wrote:
    ..... some people have been charged just for helping out people at car accidents and such...
    Site?
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    Hypothetically:

    Put them down as fast as you can get your sight picture and be sure of your backstop.



    And in situations where someone truly needs help (car accident), I would offer it without even a thought of what might happen to me. The potential charges would not compare to what my conscience would do to me if I were to just drive on by.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    GreatWhiteLlama

    I can't cite exactly, because a paramedic that taught a CPR instructor warned me about those situations, but I am talking about the people who move victims and such, and they unknowingly injure them more. He said, if you move them, and they die, it is technically your fault.

    EDITED TO ADD

    BAM
    Here is an article.
    http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?i...405&page=1


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    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    My understanding is that Washington has a Good Samaritan Law. I have no cite, but as far as the 1st aid car crash thing.

    Isit possiblecarry over to LEO assistance..............At least in eyes of jury?

    Edit:

    Aftersome thought, if I found myself inproximity, I'm claiming self defense. To hell with Samaritans and Kalifornia.




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    Regular Member Mech's Avatar
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    Sparky, is your statement in regard to the assisting police officers scenario? Or the assisting car accident scenario?

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    He must be talking about LEO situation, I am not sure how self defense comes into play at a car accident scene.


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    Regular Member Mech's Avatar
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    That's what I had presumed as well but just wanted to make sure. I would have done the same thing...

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    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    Be advised, I do not condone the use of lethal force on car accident victims....:celebrate

    for the most part anyhow, although there was the dude that rear ended my company rig and didn't have any insurance....................

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    Good Samaritan Law for WA is pretty good compared to others. Mainly what would a prudent person do in the same situation (depending on situation and training of the individual).

    So, let's say you found someone having a heart attack and you performed open heart surgery (and you aren't a cardiac surgeon). You would out of the scope of the Good Samaritan Law. But if you rendered basic CPR the way you were taught then you are covered.

    What you are looking for would fall under the RCW pertaining to defending yourself, family and others around when faced with bodily harm. Use of deadly force.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.040

    Check under 1. c) in the aid......

    Unfortunately, we do not get to choose what type of situation or scenario we are faced with when it comes to these - as many purdent folks would simply choose to be someplace else. I'm sure the officers and their families would of chose otherwise as well.

    Just keep in mind how fast these scenarios happen. BOOM! Now what?.... Do you draw or not? All depends.... your training will kick in or not but you should realize if faced in a hostile situation will you shoot or not. Facing a BG is not the time to decide. Incidents happen in seconds to minutes but the consequencesmay last a lifetime.
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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    That's why you get a pistol and join oldkim for classes at RFG!


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    Regular Member Mech's Avatar
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    oldkim, excellent link and pointers, thank you very much. I noticed under 1c it says "under the command of a peace officer." What should happen, if the officer(s) doesn't even have time to shout the command, and I decide to draw and fire on the assailants; would I still be within my bounds, with the intentions to help the officers?

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    oldkim wrote:
    Good Samaritan Law for WA is pretty good compared to others. Mainly what would a prudent person do in the same situation (depending on situation and training of the individual).

    So, let's say you found someone having a heart attack and you performed open heart surgery (and you aren't a cardiac surgeon). You would out of the scope of the Good Samaritan Law. But if you rendered basic CPR the way you were taught then you are covered.

    What you are looking for would fall under the RCW pertaining to defending yourself, family and others around when faced with bodily harm. Use of deadly force.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.040

    Check under 1. c) in the aid......

    Unfortunately, we do not get to choose what type of situation or scenario we are faced with when it comes to these - as many purdent folks would simply choose to be someplace else. I'm sure the officers and their families would of chose otherwise as well.

    Just keep in mind how fast these scenarios happen. BOOM! Now what?.... Do you draw or not? All depends.... your training will kick in or not but you should realize if faced in a hostile situation will you shoot or not. Facing a BG is not the time to decide. Incidents happen in seconds to minutes but the consequencesmay last a lifetime.
    Wouldn't we fall under http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050 ?

    .040 only applies to non-LEO aiding an LEO and acting under their command. If we take it upon ourself to intervene then were are not acting under their command and would be bound by .050.
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    Yes, very good. That was a fast post. Didn't read all of it enough.

    Don't you justlovethe "law."

    Man, I'm glad there are lawyers... well who else would we make fun of?



    This is use of force....

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

    Or Homicide....

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050

    I try to keep it simple and just know that if someone is doing harm (BG) then you have the right to defend yourself and others around you.

    The actual RCW's and so forth are why we have lawyers.
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    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.01.055

    RCW 9.01.055
    Citizen immunity if aiding officer, scope — When.

    Private citizens aiding a police officer, or other officers of the law in the performance of their duties as police officers or officers of the law, shall have the same civil and criminal immunity as such officer, as a result of any act or commission for aiding or attempting to aid a police officer or other officer of the law, when such officer is in imminent danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury or when such officer requests such assistance and when such action was taken under emergency conditions and in good faith.


    [1969 c 37 § 1.]

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    jddssc121 wrote:
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.01.055

    RCW 9.01.055
    Citizen immunity if aiding officer, scope — When.

    Private citizens aiding a police officer, or other officers of the law in the performance of their duties as police officers or officers of the law, shall have the same civil and criminal immunity as such officer, as a result of any act or commission for aiding or attempting to aid a police officer or other officer of the law, when such officer is in imminent danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury or when such officer requests such assistance and when such action was taken under emergency conditions and in good faith.


    [1969 c 37 § 1.]
    Thought I'd add the bold to help out.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    jddssc121 wrote:
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.01.055

    RCW 9.01.055
    Citizen immunity if aiding officer, scope — When.

    Private citizens aiding a police officer, or other officers of the law in the performance of their duties as police officers or officers of the law, shall have the same civil and criminal immunity as such officer, as a result of any act or commission for aiding or attempting to aid a police officer or other officer of the law, when such officer is in imminent danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury or when such officer requests such assistance and when such action was taken under emergency conditions and in good faith.


    [1969 c 37 § 1.]
    Great catch on that one!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Mech wrote:

    Again, I'm not trying to sound like doing something heroic, just want to know if there's anything I can do to prevent situations like this from happening in the future.
    Prevention is key. Everyone should be aware of their surroundings and the people in them. If someone in the coffee shop had merely shouted a warning when they saw the shooter approaching the police officers that could well have provided the time for them to react. Then again, maybe not. Every situation is different so the best advice is to react as you are best equipped. Bear in mind that not all situations will require a gun and it may well be the worst option. In the Lakewood scenario one officer was able to fight the attacker all the way to the entrance and even get a shot (or maybe two) into the attacker. What would an onlooker be able to do? Maybe, if armed, they could have ended the attack. Then maybe not.

    I was discussing this topic a couple of years ago with an Officer from Lake Forest Park while we were both practicing at the range. He said that the LAST thing to do was to introduce a gun when an officer was fighting with a subject. His words, "It would be a good way to get shot"! In the heat of battle you, as a non-uniformed civilian, could be mistaken for another attacker by the officer and in turn might be shot by the officer or an officer responding for assistance. His advice was to merely jump in and "put a knee on the subjects neck or grab an arm/leg".

    Most of all, just be aware of what's happening or developing around you. Just by being alert you have a better chance of defending yourself or warning others.

    We all get involved in the moment and become unaware of our surroundings. When that happens, as it may well have been the case last Sunday in Parkland (where the coffee shop is actually located) when the officers were involved in their conversation, laptops, etc.
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    Sparky508 wrote:
    Be advised, I do not condone the use of lethal force on car accident victims....:celebrate

    for the most part anyhow, although there was the dude that rear ended my company rig and didn't have any insurance....................
    For that comment, I'd like to buy you a beer!

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    FMCDH wrote:
    jddssc121 wrote:
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.01.055

    RCW 9.01.055
    Citizen immunity if aiding officer, scope — When.

    Private citizens aiding a police officer, or other officers of the law in the performance of their duties as police officers or officers of the law, shall have the same civil and criminal immunity as such officer, as a result of any act or commission for aiding or attempting to aid a police officer or other officer of the law, when such officer is in imminent danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury or when such officer requests such assistance and when such action was taken under emergency conditions and in good faith.


    [1969 c 37 § 1.]
    Great catch on that one!
    same civil and criminal immunity as such officer, does that mean you will get paid administrative leave while they investigate the crime seen to see if you were justified in defending yourself? After the officer took down maurice clemmons, they put him on paid leave to investigate. Does anyone else think that is stupid and there is a reason to question his actions?
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    I would only intervene if the shooter were a threat to me. Just like any time you attempt to use lethal force to help someone you need to be assured of the situation who did what, is it self defense, etc.

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    amzbrady wrote:
    FMCDH wrote:
    jddssc121 wrote:
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.01.055

    RCW 9.01.055
    Citizen immunity if aiding officer, scope — When.

    Private citizens aiding a police officer, or other officers of the law in the performance of their duties as police officers or officers of the law, shall have the same civil and criminal immunity as such officer, as a result of any act or commission for aiding or attempting to aid a police officer or other officer of the law, when such officer is in imminent danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury or when such officer requests such assistance and when such action was taken under emergency conditions and in good faith.


    [1969 c 37 § 1.]
    Great catch on that one!
    same civil and criminal immunity as such officer, does that mean you will get paid administrative leave while they investigate the crime seen to see if you were justified in defending yourself? After the officer took down maurice clemmons, they put him on paid leave to investigate. Does anyone else think that is stupid and there is a reason to question his actions?
    Being put on paid admin. leave isn't just so they can investigate, but it's to give the officer time to recoup, as having to use a firearm in deadly force probably takes a huge toll on most people.

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    Being put on paid admin. leave isn't just so they can investigate, but it's to give the officer time to recoup, as having to use a firearm in deadly force probably takes a huge toll on most people.
    Amen ta dat, and would seem to me the best reason for the admin leave, not cause they are necessarily the subject of any criminal investigation.

    As a side note, one can be deputized instantly by an LEO if they deem it necessary. I was once when a sheriff and I walked onto a bank robbery.
    He staged me a short block away to cover his 6, and the robbers left town away from me, so I never popped a cap. The robbers were caught after a chase, tho.
    That'll get your adrenaline pumpin' :shock:

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    There's been a few times where I've been spooled up to Orange... But it's better to realize that no threat exists and go back down to Yellow than stay in Yellow and have to jump to Red.


    The last time I went to orange was when I was CC at a wallymart buying flowers @ 0300.

    I noticed a shifty looking fellow with a hoodie on, and the pouch on the hoodie was dangling really low, as if he was carrying something heavy, Ie a gun. and it appeared that he was following me from a distance. I always managed to catch him at the end of the aisle appearing to peek over...

    He also managed to walk pretty fast about 50' behind me to get behind me in line at the register... He was on my weak side, and I was acting like I was looking at magazines and whatnot so I could keep an eye on him.. He quickly stuck his hand in his hoodie pocket which caused me to step back a bit, I was already in a defensive position with my shoulder perched on my weapon, and he never took his hand out of his pocket until he got to the register.. I made sure I was slow to pick up my items, making sure I was leaving my strong hand free..

    Obviously, nothing happened.. But it's better to take a bit of extra precaution when alarm bells start sounding than to have it take you by surprise...

    /rant
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