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Thread: CHP renewal question

  1. #1
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Mrs. chinchin was naughty and let her CHP expire. Now she wants to re-up it but the webpages I've seen are hazy on if it would be a renewal or if she'll have to go through the training/safety course/etc as if getting it for the first time.

    Anybody had this happen before?
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    My Circuit Court Clerk (Chesterfield) treated it as a renewal. Go in and do the paperwork in person and see what they say, as it seems to be discretionary if you have in fact let the old one expire.

    Aren't the wife-units supposed to be the ones who remember all the important dates? Is yours still under warranty?

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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  3. #3
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    She need only present evidence she has poreviously held a CHP. Va. Code § 18.2-308(G)(6) allows as proof of training: "Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause[.]"
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  4. #4
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Thank you Skid; West VA; Ms. Chinchin passes along her gratitude.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    I believe that if she has the previous proof of competence it doesn't expire...

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

    6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    nuc65 wrote:
    I believe that if she has the previous proof of competence it doesn't expire...

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

    6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
    Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

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    user wrote:
    nuc65 wrote:
    I believe that if she has the previous proof of competence it doesn't expire...

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

    6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
    Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.
    user,

    Wouldn't § 18.2-308 Subsection D (bolded section below) prohibit those places from requiring a new set of fingerprint cards?

    For convenience, the following subsections D & I are copied & pasted from § 18.2-308:

    "D. As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies. However, no local ordinance shall require an applicant to submit to fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this section and is applying for a new five-year permit pursuant to subsection I."

    "Subsection I. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in subsection D, a new five-year permit unless there is good cause shown for refusing to reissue a permit. If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit. If the circuit court denies the permit, the specific reasons for the denial shall be stated in the order of the court denying the permit. Upon denial of the application, the clerk shall provide the person with notice, in writing, of his right to an ore tenus hearing. Upon request of the applicant made within 21 days, the court shall place the matter on the docket for an ore tenus hearing. The applicant may be represented by counsel, but counsel shall not be appointed, and the rules of evidence shall apply. The final order of the court shall include the court's findings of fact and conclusions of law."

    I don't see where they could require a new set of fingerprints because the existing permit is expired. Am I reading this right?

  8. #8
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    No - the operative word in paragraph D that you've highlighted is "existing". If one's permit has expired, it's not "existing", so they demand a new set of fingerprint cards.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    The question might hinge on whether or not the CHP is considered in existence if it has expired. Answer that and it will answer as to whether or not fingerprints may be required.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  10. #10
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    Ahh, one of my pet peeves. People don't realize that certificates, cards, & permits are not the thing they evidence. A driver's license, for example, is not the "license" or permission granted by the State. That grant of permission is itselfe intangible. The card they give you is not the license, even though it's referred to that way. It's just evidence of the license. That's why your license to drive can be taken away without anyone actually removing the card from your possession. Same thing with a CHP - if the grant of permission has expired, the card means nothing. So as a legal matter, and this applies to all sorts of things, if an intangible grant of license has expired, lapsed, or been revoked, that license is no longer in existence. It is void, a nullity, nonexistent. The card that formerly represented the intangible grant of permission may still be in existence, but that's a big, "who cares?".

    I apologize in advance for getting theological on y'all in my jurisprudence. This "grant of intangible license" thing sounds a lot like the orthodox notion of "mysteries".
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    user wrote:
    Ahh, one of my pet peeves. People don't realize that certificates, cards, & permits are not the thing they evidence. A driver's license, for example, is not the "license" or permission granted by the State. That grant of permission is itselfe intangible. The card they give you is not the license, even though it's referred to that way. It's just evidence of the license. That's why your license to drive can be taken away without anyone actually removing the card from your possession. Same thing with a CHP - if the grant of permission has expired, the card means nothing. So as a legal matter, and this applies to all sorts of things, if an intangible grant of license has expired, lapsed, or been revoked, that license is no longer in existence. It is void, a nullity, nonexistent. The card that formerly represented the intangible grant of permission may still be in existence, but that's a big, "who cares?".

    I apologize in advance for getting theological on y'all in my jurisprudence. This "grant of intangible license" thing sounds a lot like the orthodox notion of "mysteries".
    I appreciate the insight, no apology necessary to me at least.

    This is all the more reason we need to get a law passed this session to codify an administrative penalty for not being in physical posession of one's "evidence of a CHP".



    TFred


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    User,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    As for waxing theological in your jurisprudence, please continue to do so. I learn something new each time.

    DM

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    user wrote:
    Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.
    And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

    Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

    Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Well, I respectfully disagree, and suggest, alternatively, that the phrase, "while an existing permit remains valid", is merely redundant.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    user wrote:
    Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.
    And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

    Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

    Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.
    So the existing permit may be valid or not, but it is still an existing permit - is this the point?

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    user wrote:
    Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.
    And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

    Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

    Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.
    So the existing permit may be valid or not, but it is still an existing permit - is this the point?

    Yata hey
    It would seem to depend on which lawyer's advice you wish to follow.

    One view is that the permit is an intangible thing, completely disconnected to the piece of paper, so it ceases to exist once it expires, the other is that if you have the piece of paper, then your permit "exists" even though it may be invalid due to the expiration date.

    I guess we need to recruit a judge to the OCDO forums. However, I suppose that would soon be followed by a need for an appellate judge...

    TFred

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    So the existing permit may be valid or not, but it is still an existing permit - is this the point?
    Right, my argument is that the statute refers to an existing permit that may or not be valid - hence it is reasonable to apply this inference to what the word "existing" means for purposes of this statute - hence both vald and invalid permits are "existing" and all "existing" permits get you around fingerprint requirements.

    Now a judge might not agree - but it sure seems to me that the statute speaks to the issue - an "existing" permit exempts you from fingerprinting whether it is valid or invalid, whatever those terms might mean, which presumably include expired via the invalid term.

    Even if the tatute was silent re the scope of the term "existing," I suggest that since the statue is silent as to expired or not expired, that "existing" means you still have it - in your hand and tangible, expirted or not. But the statute speaks to "existing" permits which are also "invalid." Clearly that is useful to our argument.

  18. #18
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    user wrote:
    Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.
    And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

    Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

    Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.
    Quick update: Wednesday of last week Mrs. ChinChin filed for her CHP renewal with the expired permit as proof of proficiency at the Loudoun County Sheriff's office. She says they ran her background check there and then was given a sealed packet which they had her deliver to the county court house and the clerk's office.

    At no time did they ask her to submit fingerprints. Dropped the sealed packet with the clerks, paid her $40 bucks and now we wait.


    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    I was just reading the Fauquier Co. ordinance, quoted below, apropos of this thread. I came to the conclusion that the ordinance requires that one be fingerprinted exactly once. There is no provision in the ordinace for fingerprinting upon re-issuance or renewal.

    Sec. 15-20. Submission of fingerprints required to obtain concealed weapons permit.
    Any applicant for a concealed handgun permit shall be required to submit to fingerprinting for the purpose of obtaining the applicant's state and national criminal history record. As a condition for the issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law enforcement agencies. Upon completion of the criminal history records check and return of the fingerprint cards to the county sheriff's office by the state police, the sheriff's office shall promptly notify the applicant that he has twenty-one (21) days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within twenty-one (21) days of notification by the sheriff's office shall be destroyed. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held, or used for any other purposes.
    (Ord. No. 00-2, 6-19-00)
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

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  20. #20
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Mrs. Chinchin's permit came in the mail Monday morning. An expired permit CAN be used to renew.

    Filed 12/9

    Received 12/28

    19 business days. Fairfax county could learn a thing or two.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ChinChin wrote:
    Mrs. Chinchin's permit came in the mail Monday morning. An expired permit CAN be used to renew.

    Filed 12/9

    Received 12/28

    19 business days. Fairfax county could learn a thing or two.
    Good show!

    Though some municipalities are like the camel, having been led to water, but won't drink. You need to brick them to get them to suck it up and do what is required.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
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    Or you could just get one of these.



    http://www.popguns.com/badge/virginia.htm


    Edit:Well, I put this down as sarcasm for a chuckle,figured everyone here had better sensing than buying one. Glad the board got the legality and common-sensability parts sorted out on this.

  23. #23
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    Chuckles wrote:
    Or you could just get one of these.



    http://www.popguns.com/badge/virginia.htm
    I seriously hope that you are joking.

    Badges like that will get you shot.
    James Reynolds

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  24. #24
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Chuckles wrote:
    Or you could just get one of these.



    http://www.popguns.com/badge/virginia.htm
    Ugh...

    The badge again

    First, in Virginia there is no such thing as concealed weapons permit, so the badge is wrong.

    Second, that badge idea is more stupid than painting the tip of your gun orange or bashing long gun open carriers.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Thundar wrote:
    Chuckles wrote:
    Or you could just get one of these.



    http://www.popguns.com/badge/virginia.htm
    Ugh...

    The badge again

    First, in Virginia there is no such thing as concealed weapons permit, so the badge is wrong.

    Second, that badge idea is more stupid than painting the tip of your gun orange or bashing long gun open carriers.
    I don't recall the statute off the top of my head, but I remember when I was in the instructor class for Utah that they told us it was illegal to have one of those.

    Some guy walked into BCI with a CWP badge and his gun and they all thought he was a cop. When they asked who he was with, he said "I'm with you guys". He thought the badge made him more official

    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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