STRAW BUY

MSC 45ACP · Dec 9, 2009

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user wrote:

The closer your relationship to the person to whom you intend to deliver the gift, the less likely you will be held to have made a straw purchase. If you're giving it to a spouse, parent, or adult child, you're cool; if you're giving it to someone you met at the car-wash that same day, you're probably screwed.

Now THAT is some funnychit right there!!!

User: You just caused me toviolently exhaleMt Dew through my nose at extreme velocity. Fortunately it didn't get on my laptop. I turned my head in time, but DAYUM it HURTS!

THANKS for the best laugh I've had in WEEKS!

mike

marshaul · Dec 9, 2009

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OK, with that in mind, what about private party transfers?

No law against buying a gun, deciding you don't like it, and selling it. No law specifying how long you must possess it before doing this.

So, when is a PPT no longer a straw purchase? What legally differentiates the two? Surely it cannot be how close you are to the buyer.

Wolf_shadow · Dec 9, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

OK, with that in mind, what about private party transfers?

No law against buying a gun, deciding you don't like it, and selling it. No law specifying how long you must possess it before doing this.

So, when is a PPT no longer a straw purchase? What legally differentiates the two? Surely it cannot be how close you are to the buyer.

IANAL but I would think you would need to have it and use it at least a couple days. Think overzealous feds or DAs.

:banghead:

TFred · Dec 9, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

OK, with that in mind, what about private party transfers?

No law against buying a gun, deciding you don't like it, and selling it. No law specifying how long you must possess it before doing this.

So, when is a PPT no longer a straw purchase? What legally differentiates the two? Surely it cannot be how close you are to the buyer.

I haven't been able to find any code (Federal or State) which applies to a private purchase for another person that is not otherwise prohibited.

That certainly doesn't mean it's not there, I just haven't been able to find it.

TFred

simmonsjoe · Dec 9, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

OK, with that in mind, what about private party transfers?

No law against buying a gun, deciding you don't like it, and selling it. No law specifying how long you must possess it before doing this.

So, when is a PPT no longer a straw purchase? What legally differentiates the two? Surely it cannot be how close you are to the buyer.

Messing around in the ATFE's territory is dangerous. they are the only paramilitary tax agency, and they don't care about your rights.

Hawkflyer · Dec 9, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

OK, with that in mind, what about private party transfers?

No law against buying a gun, deciding you don't like it, and selling it. No law specifying how long you must possess it before doing this.

So, when is a PPT no longer a straw purchase? What legally differentiates the two? Surely it cannot be how close you are to the buyer.

There is no requirement to keep a firearm for any length of time before moving it on. You can do it the same day if you want. However, here in Virginia they now control the flow through your collection by limiting how many you can buy in one month. But even that restriction does not apply if you trade one in and take one home. This exception to the 30 limitations is specifically to deal with lemons and trade-ins.

Regards

Grapeshot · Dec 9, 2009

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Hawkflyer wrote:

marshaul wrote:

OK, with that in mind, what about private party transfers?

No law against buying a gun, deciding you don't like it, and selling it. No law specifying how long you must possess it before doing this.

So, when is a PPT no longer a straw purchase? What legally differentiates the two? Surely it cannot be how close you are to the buyer.

Click to expand...

There is no requirement to keep a firearm for any length of time before moving it on. You can do it the same day if you want. However, here in Virginia they now control the flow through your collection by limiting how many you can buy in one month. But even that restriction does not apply if you trade one in and take one home. This exception to the 30 limitations is specifically to deal with lemons and trade-ins.

Regards

And no such limit (one per month) on holders of a CHP.

Yata hey

simmonsjoe · Dec 9, 2009

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Grapeshot wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

marshaul wrote:

OK, with that in mind, what about private party transfers?

No law against buying a gun, deciding you don't like it, and selling it. No law specifying how long you must possess it before doing this.

So, when is a PPT no longer a straw purchase? What legally differentiates the two? Surely it cannot be how close you are to the buyer.

Click to expand...

There is no requirement to keep a firearm for any length of time before moving it on. You can do it the same day if you want. However, here in Virginia they now control the flow through your collection by limiting how many you can buy in one month. But even that restriction does not apply if you trade one in and take one home. This exception to the 30 limitations is specifically to deal with lemons and trade-ins.

Regards

Click to expand...

And no such limit (one per month) on holders of a CHP.

Yata hey

And no such limitation on private sales, even though the ATF has charged people as unlicensed dealers for selling 3 guns in one year

marshaul · Dec 9, 2009

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Mine was really a rhetorical question.

It just seems to me that line between "straw purchase" and "private party transfer" (assuming the buy is not a prohibited person) is infinitely thin and arbitrary.

simmonsjoe · Dec 9, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

Mine was really a rhetorical question.

It just seems to me that line between "straw purchase" and "private party transfer" (assuming the buy is not a prohibited person) is infinitely thin and arbitrary.

Because all gun control in america started with Jim Crow policies.

SaltH2OHokie · Dec 9, 2009

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To clarify, my dad bought me my first 12ga at [my] age 12 or 13.

I picked it out, he bought it, but from the second it came over the counter at the store, it was MINE. Whats the statute of limitations as relevant to Class 5 Felonies? Should mi padre be on the run right now?

Further, whats the point in NOT having the exemption for parents or grandparents to children? How does little Johnnie learn to shoot? What's the intended demographic of those little 1:2 scale model looking pink .22 single shots? At least in Virginia I reckon the dad is just lending it to his daughter until she's 18?

Mike · Dec 9, 2009

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simmonsjoe wrote:

Does it constitute a crime to purchase a weapon for someone who CAN LAWFULLY OWN a firearm?

if you mean purchase with their money, yes, its a violation of your statement on the 4473, perjury I think.

If you mean buy a gun and give it away, no.

SaltH2OHokie · Dec 9, 2009

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Mike wrote:

simmonsjoe wrote:

Does it constitute a crime to purchase a weapon for someone who CAN LAWFULLY OWN a firearm?

Click to expand...

if you mean purchase with their money, yes, its a violation of your statement on the 4473, perjury I think.

If you mean buy a gun and give it away, no.

Buy a gun and give it away to someone who can lawfully OWN a firearm isn't necessarily legal is it?

§ 18.2-308.2:2.

M. Any person who purchases a firearm with the intent to (i) resell or otherwise provide such firearm to any person who he knows or has reason to believe is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a firearm for whatever reason or (ii) transport such firearm out of the Commonwealth to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm, shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

In a nutshell says if a person can't BUY the gun, you can't "otherwise provide..." the gun to them. 'Give away' would fall in "otherwise provide", yes?

§ 18.2-308.7. Which you can read for yourself if you like, essentially allows for a person under 18 to use, possess, transport guns (shotguns holding less than 8 rounds, rifles without folding stocks/20 round or less mag/not meant for suppressor/etc. Etc. etc.)

That person can't PURCHASE from a dealer as required in 18.2-308.2:2, but they can OWN the gun legally as allowed in 18.2-308.7.

One of us in this discussion and has been to law school. The other is finally graduating from undergrad while working on 24 years old and only dreams about a world where law schools take 2.8 students and let them work a full-time job while they're studying...(in other words, I'm likely wrong, but that's how I read the law, which would make your statement incorrect).

Hawkflyer · Dec 10, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

Mine was really a rhetorical question.

It just seems to me that line between "straw purchase" and "private party transfer" (assuming the buy is not a prohibited person) is infinitely thin and arbitrary.

And THAT is what keeps Bloomy, the Brady bunch and others yelling that there is a loophole in the law. It is not a loophole, it is a hairline distinction that depends on the honesty of the parties to the transaction.

Regards

wylde007 · Dec 10, 2009

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

She is not prohibited from buying because of felony status, but for her age. It states in the law that an 18 year old may OWN and POSSESS a pistol just not purchase from a dealer.

She would be able to possess the firearm under 18 IF (and there are a couple of ifs, these are but a few) her duties as a member of a civil defense (Nat'l Guard) required it, if she was enrolled as a member of a target shooting club going to or returning from the range, etc, etc.

Most laws are stupid. All they do is make it more difficult for lawful citizens to figure out if they're acting lawfully or not.

An infant (minor) child, by law cannot "own" a pistol, but is not forbidden from using one under certain sets of very specific circumstances, at least as I read it.

IANAL. TGIHA.

Mike · Dec 10, 2009

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

§ 18.2-308.2:2.

M. Any person who purchases a firearm with the intent to (i) resell or otherwise provide such firearm to any person who he knows or has reason to believe is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a firearm for whatever reason or (ii) transport such firearm out of the Commonwealth to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm, shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

Click to expand...

Hmm, this Virginia STATE statute does appears to be a problem for people buying a gun with intent to give the gun to another person who could not buy fom the dealer - it all depends on the meaning of "ineligible."

So let's say you want to give your 19 year old daughter a handgun for Christmas - 18.2-308.2:2 arguably makes your effort to buy a huandgun to give to her unlawful - again, depends on the meaning of the word "inelegible."

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

darthmord · Dec 10, 2009

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Mike wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

§ 18.2-308.2:2.

M. Any person who purchases a firearm with the intent to (i) resell or otherwise provide such firearm to any person who he knows or has reason to believe is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a firearm for whatever reason or (ii) transport such firearm out of the Commonwealth to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm, shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hmm, this Virginia STATE statute does appears to be a problem for people buying a gun with intent to give the gun to another person who could not buy fom the dealer - it all depends on the meaning of "ineligible."

So let's say you want to give your 19 year old daughter a handgun for Christmas - 18.2-308.2:2 arguably makes your effort to buy a huandgun to give to her unlawful - again, depends on the meaning of the word "inelegible."

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

Mike, wouldn't existing ownership of a handgun by said 19 year old be a way around that?Say perhaps the firearm needs a gunsmith's attention. So she takes the handgun to the local dealer who has a gunsmith on site. She's the legitimate, lawfulowner. When the gun is repaired, she should be able to pick up her own property from the dealer without issue. Nothing in code says she cannot receive her property from a dealer.

Similar circumstances withwait staff serving alcohol. When I worked at a Pizza Hut in Ohio (years ago), you had to be 19 to serve alcohol yet could not buy or drink until 21. That right there made it de facto legal to possess alcohol under 21.

Mike · Dec 10, 2009

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darthmord wrote:

wouldn't existing ownership of a handgun by said 19 year old be a way around that?

That's not what we are talking about.

TFred · Dec 10, 2009

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Mike wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

§ 18.2-308.2:2.

M. Any person who purchases a firearm with the intent to (i) resell or otherwise provide such firearm to any person who he knows or has reason to believe is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a firearm for whatever reason or (ii) transport such firearm out of the Commonwealth to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm, shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hmm, this Virginia STATE statute does appears to be a problem for people buying a gun with intent to give the gun to another person who could not buy fom the dealer - it all depends on the meaning of "ineligible."

So let's say you want to give your 19 year old daughter a handgun for Christmas - 18.2-308.2:2 arguably makes your effort to buy a huandgun to give to her unlawful - again, depends on the meaning of the word "inelegible."

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

I agree with where you are going here. This is the opposite of a "loophole", this is an inadvertent (I believe) "loop block" that technically prevents an 18-20 year old from a) purchasing a handgun via a private sale, or even b) receiving a handgun as a gift, due to the Federal law restriction on FFLs.

It should probably be fixed.

TFred

darthmord · Dec 10, 2009

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Mike wrote:

darthmord wrote:

wouldn't existing ownership of a handgun by said 19 year old be a way around that?

Click to expand...

That's not what we are talking about.

It is when you put it in the context of already having one and you decided to give the daughter a gift. Perhaps the first handgun came from an uncle or an inheritance. Source would be irrelevant. It does however establish means by which she could lawfully receive a firearm from a FFL (being able to take it in for servicing).

Thus, the daughter could receive another from someone and it not be a straw purchase if the purchase was for the purpose of gifting.

Or we are simply blowing this up into a mountain when it's perfectly legal to make a gift to the 19 yr old.

At any rate, as each of my daughters turn 18, if they are so inclined toward firearm ownership, I intend on buying each of them a handgun of their choice as a coming of age gift... unless the law is changed to prohibit them from owning between now and then.

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