STRAW BUY

Mike · Dec 10, 2009

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TFred wrote:

I agree with where you are going here. This is the opposite of a "loophole", this is an inadvertent (I believe) "loop block" that technically prevents an 18-20 year old from a) purchasing a handgun via a private sale, or even b) receiving a handgun as a gift, due to the Federal law restriction on FFLs.

This is not where this is going - the statute does not make 18-20 year old private transfers a crime - it, at most, makes it a crime to buy a gun with intent to transfer to a person who could not buy that gun from a dealer.

Mike · Dec 10, 2009

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darthmord wrote:

It is when you put it in the context of already having one and you decided to give the daughter a gift. Perhaps the first handgun came from an uncle or an inheritance. Source would be irrelevant. It does however establish means by which she could lawfully receive a firearm from a FFL (being able to take it in for servicing).

no, no - come on, that would render the whole statute nugatory.

TFred · Dec 10, 2009

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Mike wrote:

TFred wrote:

I agree with where you are going here. This is the opposite of a "loophole", this is an inadvertent (I believe) "loop block" that technically prevents an 18-20 year old from a) purchasing a handgun via a private sale, or even b) receiving a handgun as a gift, due to the Federal law restriction on FFLs.

Click to expand...

This is not where this is going - the statute does not make 18-20 year old private transfers a crime - it, at most, makes it a crime to buy a gun with intent to transfer to a person who could not buy that gun from a dealer.

Well that was what I meant... My "a" wording above left out that it was the first step that is covered, not the actual "private sale" part. It makes the initial purchase from a dealer illegal if it was taking place as the first step to a private sale (such as a parent buying a first gun for their child 18-20), and also makes a dealer purchase illegal if the parent intended to gift that purchase to a child 18-20.

TFred

Mike · Dec 10, 2009

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Adding more mystery, BATFE has taken the following position that as a matter of federal law:

[align=left](B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift[/align]
[align=left]for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)?[/align]
[align=left]"Yes. However, in the case of handguns, possession of handguns by juveniles[/align]
[align=left](less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles may only[/align]
[align=left]receive and posses handguns with the written permission of a parent or[/align]
[align=left]guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target[/align]
[align=left]practice or hunting.[/align]
[align=left][18 U.S.C. 922(x)]"[/align]
[align=left]This Virginia statute is really bad for us even if read narrowly to only pertain to sales by dealers (the subject of the section) - it needs to be repealed or amended to not apply to age of intended recipient.[/align]

peter nap · Dec 10, 2009

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Mike wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

§ 18.2-308.2:2.

M. Any person who purchases a firearm with the intent to (i) resell or otherwise provide such firearm to any person who he knows or has reason to believe is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a firearm for whatever reason or (ii) transport such firearm out of the Commonwealth to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm, shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hmm, this Virginia STATE statute does appears to be a problem for people buying a gun with intent to give the gun to another person who could not buy fom the dealer - it all depends on the meaning of "ineligible."

So let's say you want to give your 19 year old daughter a handgun for Christmas - 18.2-308.2:2 arguably makes your effort to buy a huandgun to give to her unlawful - again, depends on the meaning of the word "inelegible."

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

loan,Loan,LOAN,LOAN,LOAN,LOAN

Mike · Dec 10, 2009

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peter nap wrote:

loan,Loan,LOAN,LOAN,LOAN,LOAN

which would be a way to "otherwise provide" :X

In an abundance of caution, its probably best to not buy guns with the intention to give them away to persons who might be deemed inelegible to receive from a dealer even if the person may lawfully own guns.

Just give 'em an old gun from your previously acquired private collection

ed · Dec 10, 2009

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Ok.. so between my 12 year old daughter and I.. ONE OF US owns a Pink Walther P22 pistol. Legally I am not sure who owns it... but if you break into our house and your are shot with it, it will probably be by her unless she has enough adrenelin to shoot you with the 12 gauge super shorty.

Hawkflyer · Dec 10, 2009

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ed wrote:

Ok.. so between my 12 year old daughter and I.. ONE OF US owns a Pink Walther P22 pistol. Legally I am not sure who owns it... but if you break into our house and your are shot with it, it will probably be by her unless she has enough adrenelin to shoot you with the 12 gauge super shorty.

Ed ... You are not fooling anyone. We all know you wanted the pink gun for yourself.:lol:

peter nap · Dec 10, 2009

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Hawkflyer wrote:

ed wrote:

Ok.. so between my 12 year old daughter and I.. ONE OF US owns a Pink Walther P22 pistol. Legally I am not sure who owns it... but if you break into our house and your are shot with it, it will probably be by her unless she has enough adrenelin to shoot you with the 12 gauge super shorty.

Click to expand...

Ed ... You are not fooling anyone. We all know you wanted the pink gun for yourself.:lol:

No shame in it Ed. Just admit you're a new century kind of guy:uhoh:

peter nap · Dec 10, 2009

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I guess that means I can't give my grandson the Red Ryder BB gun with the saddle ring and the compass in the stock...for Christmas.

Oh well...It'll look good beside my Weatherby

simmonsjoe · Dec 10, 2009

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Mike wrote:

Adding more mystery, BATFE has taken the following position that as a matter of federal law:

[align=left]

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift

[/align]

[align=left]

for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)?

[/align]

[align=left]"Yes. However, in the case of handguns, possession of handguns by juveniles[/align]
[align=left](less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles may only[/align]
[align=left]receive and posses handguns with the written permission of a parent or[/align]
[align=left]guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target[/align]
[align=left]practice or hunting.[/align]
[align=left][18 U.S.C. 922(x)]"[/align]
[align=left]This Virginia statute is really bad for us even if read narrowly to only pertain to sales by dealers (the subject of the section) - it needs to be repealed or amended to not apply to age of intended recipient.[/align]

I've heard Alaska allows a 16 year old to possess and conceal a pistol even without parental consent. At least thats what I've been told. Does anyone know if that is true?? If it is, and this is federal law, and the ATF is a federal agency, how can it be OK in one state but not in another?

Grapeshot · Dec 10, 2009

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I think the operative word above is "generally" illegal.

Minimum age to OC in Alaska and Montana is 14.
http://www.opencarry.org/age.html

Yata hey

Grapeshot · Dec 10, 2009

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Interestingly enough, even though no permit is required to carry, if you want a permit these are the requirements:

Alaska Statutes. Title 18. Health, Safety, and Housing
Chapter 65. Police Protection Section 705. Qualifications to Obtain a Permit. previous: Section 700. Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun.
next: Section 710. Application For Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun.
AS 18.65.705. Qualifications to Obtain a Permit. A person is qualified to receive and hold a permit to carry a concealed handgun if the person

(1) is 21 years of age or older;

(2) is eligible to own or possess a handgun under the laws of this state and under federal law;

(3) is a resident of the state and has been for the 90 days immediately preceding the application for a permit;

(4) has not been convicted of two or more class A misdemeanors of this state or similar laws of another jurisdiction within the six years immediately preceding the application;

(5) is not now in and has not in the three years immediately preceding the application been ordered by a court to complete an alcohol or substance abuse treatment program; and

(6) has successfully completed a handgun course as provided in AS 18.65.715.

Note the items highlighted in red - they create some confusion for me.

Comments?

Yata hey

simmonsjoe · Dec 10, 2009

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Grapeshot wrote:

I think the operative word above is "generally" illegal.

Minimum age to OC in Alaska and Montana is 14.
http://www.opencarry.org/age.html

Yata hey

Good point and reference Grapeshot. I wonder how a federal agency has the place to take a position based in federal law if a state disagrees with it. Doesn't the 10th amendment disallow that?? Doesn't the 10th amendment disallow the BATFE altogether? Is the BATFE even constitutionally sound?? When the 2nd Amendment is incorporated, how can the states permit the BATFE to work in their borders? won't the Federal gov't regulation of interstate commerce become a mute argument at that point?? Isn't taxation infringement? I wonder if the 2nd Amendment is incorporated it will give the states grounds to say they are required to stop the BATFE because the 2A removes weapons from the purview of the interstate commerce clause? Am I being overly optimistic or desperately looking for something that isn't there? Am I ever going to be able to own a silenced automatic Kalashnikov without giving permission to have my house searched at any time?

simmonsjoe · Dec 10, 2009

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peter nap wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

ed wrote:

Ok.. so between my 12 year old daughter and I.. ONE OF US owns a Pink Walther P22 pistol. Legally I am not sure who owns it... but if you break into our house and your are shot with it, it will probably be by her unless she has enough adrenelin to shoot you with the 12 gauge super shorty.

Click to expand...

Ed ... You are not fooling anyone. We all know you wanted the pink gun for yourself.:lol:

Click to expand...

No shame in it Ed. Just admit you're a new century kind of guy:uhoh:

You know if you don't like people asking you why you OC or if its legal and stuff, carrying a pink Taurus 9mm is a good way to avoid ALL QUESTIONS. Nobody would say shit about it. I'm sure there are a couple of guys over at PINKPISTOLS.ORG who could attest to this. (Their motto is Armed gays don't get bashed) It's a 2A rights org aimed at gays.

TFred · Dec 10, 2009

imported post

Grapeshot wrote:

Interestingly enough, even though no permit is required to carry, if you want a permit these are the requirements:

Alaska Statutes. Title 18. Health, Safety, and Housing
Chapter 65. Police Protection Section 705. Qualifications to Obtain a Permit. previous: Section 700. Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun.
next: Section 710. Application For Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun.
AS 18.65.705. Qualifications to Obtain a Permit. A person is qualified to receive and hold a permit to carry a concealed handgun if the person

(1) is 21 years of age or older;

(2) is eligible to own or possess a handgun under the laws of this state and under federal law;

(3) is a resident of the state and has been for the 90 days immediately preceding the application for a permit;

(4) has not been convicted of two or more class A misdemeanors of this state or similar laws of another jurisdiction within the six years immediately preceding the application;

(5) is not now in and has not in the three years immediately preceding the application been ordered by a court to complete an alcohol or substance abuse treatment program; and

(6) has successfully completed a handgun course as provided in AS 18.65.715.

Note the items highlighted in red - they create some confusion for me.

Comments?

Yata hey

I suspect this is so that the Alaska permit will be recognized by other states.

TFred

Grapeshot · Dec 10, 2009

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That makes sense.

Yata hey

Hawkflyer · Dec 11, 2009

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Grapeshot wrote:

That makes sense.

Yata hey

That is not correct. You may UNDERSTAND, but none of this crap makes sense.:banghead:

altajava · Dec 12, 2009

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

That makes sense.

Yata hey

Click to expand...

That is not correct. You may UNDERSTAND, but none of this crap makes sense.:banghead:

What happened to the harmonious agreements over the past several weeks? Is Christmas alreadyover?

simmonsjoe · Dec 12, 2009

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altajava wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

That makes sense.

Yata hey

Click to expand...

That is not correct. You may UNDERSTAND, but none of this crap makes sense.:banghead:

Click to expand...

What happened to the harmonious agreements over the past several weeks? Is Christmas alreadyover?

Read the whole thread it wasn't insulting.

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