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Thread: 12031(a)(1) and 53071/.5 Questions

  1. #1
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    I have never been to California, nor am I familiar with The California Penal Code, however; I have a few questions I would like to ask.

    1. Does the possesion of a Valid Concealed Carry Permit issued under the authority of The County Sheriff, as codified under California Penal Code 12050(a)(1)(A), authorize the carrying of a Loaded Firearm in a Incorporated Area of a County in accordance with California Penal Code 12031(b)(6), as is a exception to California Penal Code 12031(a)(1)?

    2. Likewise, if the answer to Question 1 is yes, then, similarly, may a Person carry a Loaded Firearm in an Unincorporated Area of a County that the County Commisionners that is otherwise off limits to Open Loaded Carry, notwithstanding; any 'No Discharge/Hunting Zones'?

    3. What, if any, is the correlation with the 200,000 Person decennial Census County population countin relation to Open Loaded Carry with a Permit?

    4. Does a Person have to show any Identification (California Drivers License/Identification/etc.) in order to Open Carry, or does the Officer have to have Probable Cause to ask for Identification?

    5. May a Officer check the Serial Number, or may they inspect the Ammunition? Finally, if someone has a Concealed Carry Permit may they carry with a live, unexpended, round ofAmmunition chambered into the barrel/firing mechanism of the Firearm(say Pistol), notwithstanding 12031(a)(1)?

    By the way...are there any 'Gun Free Zones' in California, or does it solely depend on whether or not a Person may Legallycarry/own/use a Firearm? Although I gave it my best effort, I did not fully understand, nor am I familiar with, California Penal Code. It is long winded, and it is very easy to get confused, which; I think is done on purpose. However, I did not see anything in there that said anything about whether or not it was Legal to carry a Firearm to: An Airport, Bar, Church, Entertainment Event, Poltical Event, Park, Public Building, or any College/University.

    Therefore... Iassume those places are all Legal in California..., but is that so?Furthermore, under Government Code 53071/.5 it appears that California actually has Preemption for Firearms, but it does not apply to Citiesor Counties. I am not sure if I read that right, but I thought that violated the whole purpose of Preemption.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    1) yes, any license issued pursuant to PC 12050 is an exemption to all of PC 12031 (the statute for the loaded condition of a firearm)

    2) Yes, sort of - if you discharge a firearm in a no discharge are you could be prosecuted under that statute. However, I know of no statute which prohibits the carry of a firearm in CA excepting 171b, 626.9, and 12025

    Please keep in mind that there are two relevant areas of legislation in CA. A) The carrying of firearms; B) Whether or not firearms are loaded.

    3) What you are referring to is a very rare (read nonexistant) option for a Chief LEO to issue an exposed carry permit which is good in 1 county only. However, keep in mind that the carrying of a concealable handgun openly in CA is not (generally) prohibited. These permits can only be issued in counties with a population less then 200,000.

    4) There is not 'stop and identify statute' in the state of CA. However, if you are actually arrested you must identify yourself

    5a) If the Serial Number is readily evident, they may check its records, but they may not detain you in order todo so unless they have reasonable articulable suspicion that you have (or about to) commit a crime.

    5b) A license issued pursuant to PC 12050 is an exemption to PC 12031

    Yes, CA has Gun Free School Zones - See PC 626.9. PC 12050 is an exemption to the GFSZ.

    An Airport -legal in the unsecured area

    Bar - legal

    Church - legal

    Entertainment Event - legal

    Poltical Event - legal unlessthe even is a 'labor strike' type of event

    Park - generally legal

    Public Building - not legal without a 12050 license - see PC 171b

    College/University - I'm not positive on this one but I think its generally legal. Edit: not legal without a 12050 license - see 626.9

    CA has preemption at all levels for those areas which 'encompass the totality of legislation' Generally speaking this covers the carrying of arms.


    edit: p.s. I typed that all up in a real hurry, I should be corrected shortly if I missed a direct question.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    aadvark wrote:
    I have never been to California, nor am I familiar with The California Penal Code, however; I have a few questions I would like to ask.

    1. Does the possesion of a Valid Concealed Carry Permit issued under the authority of The County Sheriff, as codified under California Penal Code 12050(a)(1)(A), authorize the carrying of a Loaded Firearm in a Incorporated Area of a County in accordance with California Penal Code 12031(b)(6), as is a exception to California Penal Code 12031(a)(1)?
    Yes, a valid CCW allows for carry of a loaded firearm in bothincorporated and unincorporated areas.
    2. Likewise, if the answer to Question 1 is yes, then, similarly, may a Person carry a Loaded Firearm in an Unincorporated Area of a County that the County Commisionners that is otherwise off limits to Open Loaded Carry, notwithstanding; any 'No Discharge/Hunting Zones'?
    See Above
    3. What, if any, is the correlation with the 200,000 Person decennial Census County population countin relation to Open Loaded Carry with a Permit?
    If the county a person lives in has a population of less than 200,000 as of the last census, then the Sheriff "MAY" issue a license to carry loaded and exposed. That license is only valid in the county of issue. It is NOT valid anywhere else in the state. I have found no reported instances of anyone EVER have been issued a license to carry loaded and exposed.
    4. Does a Person have to show any Identification (California Drivers License/Identification/etc.) in order to Open Carry, or does the Officer have to have Probable Cause to ask for Identification?
    No, California has no stop and I.D. law, thus there is no requirement to even carry I.D.
    5. May a Officer check the Serial Number, or may they inspect the Ammunition? Finally, if someone has a Concealed Carry Permit may they carry with a live, unexpended, round ofAmmunition chambered into the barrel/firing mechanism of the Firearm(say Pistol), notwithstanding 12031(a)(1)?
    Per CA Penal Code 12031(e) an LEO may inspect any firearm to determine if it is loaded. If the officer happens to see the serial number, he may write it down to run it, but should not extend the inspection to do so. Many LEOs will take the firearm to the vehicle and run the serial number, thus detaining the individual without cause.
    By the way...are there any 'Gun Free Zones' in California, or does it solely depend on whether or not a Person may Legallycarry/own/use a Firearm? Although I gave it my best effort, I did not fully understand, nor am I familiar with, California Penal Code. It is long winded, and it is very easy to get confused, which; I think is done on purpose. However, I did not see anything in there that said anything about whether or not it was Legal to carry a Firearm to: An Airport, Bar, Church, Entertainment Event, Poltical Event, Park, Public Building, or any College/University.
    All of these areas except for State Parks, Public buildings, and colleges/universities, should be OK for open carry. Please download and read some of the pamphlets in the CA forum.
    Therefore... Iassume those places are all Legal in California..., but is that so?Furthermore, under Government Code 53071/.5 it appears that California actually has Preemption for Firearms, but it does not apply to Citiesor Counties. I am not sure if I read that right, but I thought that violated the whole purpose of Preemption.
    This particular code deals with the the manufacture, sale, or possession of imitation firearms.

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    Thank you for all of the explanations on this subject, as it pertains to California Law.

    I saw something on Youtube yesterday evening about as to why The California Legislature passed Penal Code 12031(a)(1). Unless I am mistaken, it had something to do with The Black Panthers.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    aadvark wrote:
    Thank you for all of the explanations on this subject, as it pertains to California Law.

    I saw something on Youtube yesterday evening about as to why The California Legislature passed Penal Code 12031(a)(1). Unless I am mistaken, it had something to do with The Black Panthers.
    Cliff's Notes version:

    Basically back in the day, the Black Panthers began to arm themselves in order to protect their community from the police, who were supposedly beating random young black men for fun and profit.

    So the powers that be decided that it wasn't a good idea for black people to be able to protect themselves from being abused by the "authorities". They decided to pass a law making it illegal to carry a loaded weapon within city limits.

    The Black Panthers responded by attending a meeting of the state legislature to state their disapproval of the law about to be passed. The Black Panthers just happened to be carrying loaded shotguns and rifles on their persons when they attended this meeting.

    The legislature (after a change of underwear) quickly decided that they definitely didn't like black people with guns anywhere near them, to they passed the law.

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    mjones wrote:
    College/University - I'm not positive on this one but I think its generally legal.
    Correction: NOT legal on campus. See 626.9.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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  7. #7
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    Also, keep in mind that having a 12050 permit exempts you from 12025, 12031, 626.9, 171b, and possible even other statutes.

    It's your golden ticket to having a "right" in this state... but who wants to grovel before their local bureaucrat in order to exercise a right?
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    mjones wrote:
    College/University - I'm not positive on this one but I think its generally legal.
    Correction: NOT legal on campus. See 626.9.
    Corrected

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