Question on ammunition

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Googling is really not being any help, so I figured I'd ask direct here.

Given the recent amount of home invasions with body armor, I am wondering if it is lawful to own armor piercing ammunition? If not, what is the caliber required to defeat a standard level 3 vest?

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One or more 12 guage slugs should cause enough blunt force trauma to knock the wind out of the sails of an intruder. If you know he is wearing body armour, two words...head shots.

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yelohamr wrote:

One or more 12 guage slugs should cause enough blunt force trauma to knock the wind out of the sails of an intruder.  If you know he is wearing body armour, two words...head shots.

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This is true, but it's my understanding that fine motor skills are under heavy stress in a combat situation, making headshots very hard to accomplish and as such should aim for center mass.

M855's would defeat a level 3 vest?

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M855 SS109 black tip

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NavyLT wrote:

Sonora Rebel wrote:

M855 SS109 black tip

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Isn't black tip M995?

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Yep... thinkin'one thing while typing another. M855 is green tip (mia culpa)

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Unless you are talking about ceramic armor or such, the average ballistic vest ("bullet proof vest") that LE and security types use (level IIa - level III) will not stop any .223/5.56mm rounds. 12ga shotgun rounds will also penitrate. As will all high powered rifle rounds (7.62x39, 7.62x51R, 30-06, 308, etc).

If you are talking about handgun rounds, anything less than a level IIIa vestwill be comprimised by a 357mag or 44 mag.

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LuvmyXD9 wrote:

yelohamr wrote:

One or more 12 guage slugs should cause enough blunt force trauma to knock the wind out of the sails of an intruder. If you know he is wearing body armour, two words...head shots.

Click to expand...

This is true, but it's my understanding that fine motor skills are under heavy stress in a combat situation, making headshots very hard to accomplish and as such should aim for center mass.

M855's would defeat a level 3 vest?

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During a home invasion shoot out, the distance is going to be less than 10 yards. A 12 guage slug centermass is going to end the gunfight.

If not, reload with kryptonite.

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A level 3 vest, in my opinion, is a joke. A false sense of security. Pretty much any center fire rifle will destroy a level 3 vest like it's not there. Old used kevlar armor can be bought expressly to shoot up. It is widely available for that purpose on the web.

However, if you're talking about level 4 armor, it's designed to stop 30/06 AP ammo, and your odds of defensively using a practical shoulder fired weapon to penetrate it aren't good.

Head shots are a good way to go, but as mentioned could be tricky. 4 or 5 shotgun blasts to anywhere from the crotch up will ruin just about anyones day, even if they're wearing heavy armor.

Pretty much can't beat the devastation of a shotgun.

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Michigander wrote:

A level 3 vest, in my opinion, is a joke. ..However, if you're talking about level 4 armor, it's designed to stop 30/06 AP ammo, and your odds of defensively using a practical shoulder fired weapon to penetrate it aren't good.

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Level IIIa armor will stop all but the most powerful handgun rounds (500 S&W, 454 Cassul, etc). It is the highest rating practical for day-to-day wear. A level IIIa in kevlar will set you back $600-800.

It is possible to add a 10" x12" ceramic plate to your vest, for an additoinal $300, raising your IIIa to a IV, which will stop high powered rifle rounds (30-06/308 etc). The increased weight (7 lbs), lack of flexibility [IIIa kevlar is already very bulky] and hopes that you get hit in that 10x12 zone only make it impracticle for every day wear.

Level IIIa armor is hardly 'a joke', it is the best readily available for common usage. If you are talking about specific case scenarios (SWAT, military engagements, or knowing your are going in to a high power rifle gunfight) then yes, IV is the way to go. It is not feasible for day to day LE, or for those non-LE on this board whoponder the need to wear a ballistic vest as a fashion accessory.

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AZkopper wrote:

SNIP [Level] IV is...not feasible for...those non-LE on this board whoponder the need to wear a ballistic vest as a fashion accessory.

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I guess Grapeshot doesn't have to worry about that new dress, then.

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You can own it but you have to register it with BATFE. Source: Arizona Gun Owner's Guide by Alan Korwin.

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AZkopper wrote:

Level IIIa armor is hardly 'a joke', it is the best readily available for common usage. If you are talking about specific case scenarios (SWAT, military engagements, or knowing your are going in to a high power rifle gunfight) then yes, IV is the way to go. It is not feasible for day to day LE, or for those non-LE on this board whoponder the need to wear a ballistic vest as a fashion accessory.

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Our opinions are going to vary greatly on the matter, because of the fact my sole experience with body armor is shooting it up, and yours is probably mostly with wearing it. I'm also not real impressed by Kevlars inability to absorb the impact. As far as I can tell, getting hit by a service caliber handgun round to the upper chest while wearing Kevlar would be like getting hit with the same force as having a skilled martial artist punch someone in the chest with no vest.

Also, in my current region police have drawn on not less than 5 open carriers while doing illegal and unjustified felony stops. Lethal force for lawful activity. Not so cool.

I don't own body armor, but the thought has occurred to me more than once that I wouldn't mind having a vest and rifle plates under my shirt or jacket while OCing around urban Michigan. But I can't justify the expense, and I've personally never been drawn on, so I haven't ever bought any. But I definitely would consider it less a fashion accessory and more a sensible defense against cops, since exercising the right to resist unlawful arrest would be as suicidal as it would be bad for Michigan OCing as a cause.

I suppose our opinions will be more in line once I make it back to Arizona.