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Thread: Provo Towne Centre - gun or no gun

  1. #1
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    Thinking of going to theprovo towne center mall and was wondering if thy had a ban on guns yet. thanks

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    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    It doesn't LOOK like provotownecentre.com has any rules relating to firearms, guns, or weapons posted. I checked using google and their on-site search. I checked their Terms of Use, etc... their parent company appears to be a private company, but I suppose there could be public funding in there somewhere.

    Are you looking to OC or CC?

    Also, remember... signs of 'no guns' mean jack squat here in Utah. It means they don't approve of them, but that's it. The most they can do is ask us to leave. If you refuse to leave, then they can try charging you with trespassing. By Utah statute, in a publicly accessible store, trespassing requires that someone significantly interrupt someone's business. My advice, leave if they ask you to, but IANAL... You cannot legally be arrested merely for carrying in there.

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    that is interesting. my roommate and ijust got back from the dollar movie and right on the ticket window there was a sign, "guns prohibited". I was like damn so i walked back to the car and put the gun away even though i did not want to. i just have always though that if a public place wanted to ban guns then thy should have to provide security to protect the helpless people thy took the guns away from. so if i decided to open carry as that is all i do, how would i handle a confrontation about my gun. where thy say, did you not see the "no guns allowed sign" at the door of the mall.

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    JTknives wrote:
    that is interesting. my roommate and ijust got back from the dollar movie and right on the ticket window there was a sign, "guns prohibited". I was like damn so i walked back to the car and put the gun away even though i did not want to. i just have always though that if a public place wanted to ban guns then thy should have to provide security to protect the helpless people thy took the guns away from. so if i decided to open carry as that is all i do, how would i handle a confrontation about my gun. where thy say, did you not see the "no guns allowed sign" at the door of the mall.
    If my gun isn't welcome, neither am I. If they don't want me there with my gun, they don't want my money.

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    I have OCd there several times without incident.

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    JTknives wrote:
    that is interesting. my roommate and ijust got back from the dollar movie and right on the ticket window there was a sign, "guns prohibited". I was like damn so i walked back to the car and put the gun away even though i did not want to. i just have always though that if a public place wanted to ban guns then thy should have to provide security to protect the helpless people thy took the guns away from. so if i decided to open carry as that is all i do, how would i handle a confrontation about my gun. where thy say, did you not see the "no guns allowed sign" at the door of the mall.
    You you are stopped on private property about your gun and asked to leave, you just leave. There's no trick to it, but if you want to, feel free to ask them about their CORPORATE POLICY on firearms. You can ask to see it in writing, but if they insist on getting you out the door, get their name and send off a letter detailing the situation to their corporate HQ. If their corporate HQ fires back and says 'too bad' then there are other companies that deserve your money. Otherwise, they'll say they follow state law, so that gives you something you can put in your pocket if you decide to go back.

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    rpyne wrote:
    I have OCd there several times without incident.
    I have oced there several times as well without incident. I was asked one time by the security guys to leave. I did and have gone back several times and never had another issue.

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    Don't often frequent the malls but I, also, have OC'd there SEVERAL times without incident!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    rpyne wrote:
    JTknives wrote:
    that is interesting. my roommate and ijust got back from the dollar movie and right on the ticket window there was a sign, "guns prohibited". I was like damn so i walked back to the car and put the gun away even though i did not want to. i just have always though that if a public place wanted to ban guns then thy should have to provide security to protect the helpless people thy took the guns away from. so if i decided to open carry as that is all i do, how would i handle a confrontation about my gun. where thy say, did you not see the "no guns allowed sign" at the door of the mall.
    If my gun isn't welcome, neither am I. If they don't want me there with my gun, they don't want my money.
    Same here, if they feel that I am a 'threat' to them when I OC, I will go somewhere else with my money and will write them a letter letting them know that they lost business as well.

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    Don't often frequent the malls but I, also, have OC'd there SEVERAL times without incident!
    +1.
    Myself and my wife have OCed there. No issues. of course we get the usual looks IF our firearms are noticed, but no harassment by the fuzz or anything.

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    As a customer you are their best and worst advertisment. I tell 'em ," I will tell everyone that will stop long enough about this incident".

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    UtahJarhead wrote:
    [S]igns of 'no guns' mean jack squat here in Utah.* It means they don't approve of them, but that's it.* The most they can do is ask us to leave.* If you refuse to leave, then they can try charging you with trespassing.* By Utah statute, in a publicly accessible store, trespassing requires that someone significantly interrupt someone's business. [...]* You cannot legally be arrested merely for carrying in there.
    Thats mostly correct.

    "No guns" signs at courthouses, mental health facilities, (some) churches/temples, jails, the secure area at an airport, (arguably) at US Post Offices, and similar places [do] need to be observed (because their prohibitions are codified in state/federal law).

    I knew what you were trying to say, I just wanted to correct that little technicality for you.

    - Joe Levi http://JoeLevi.com

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    joelevi wrote:
    UtahJarhead wrote:
    [S]igns of 'no guns' mean jack squat here in Utah. It means they don't approve of them, but that's it. The most they can do is ask us to leave. If you refuse to leave, then they can try charging you with trespassing. By Utah statute, in a publicly accessible store, trespassing requires that someone significantly interrupt someone's business. [...] You cannot legally be arrested merely for carrying in there.
    Thats mostly correct.

    "No guns" signs at courthouses, mental health facilities, (some) churches/temples, jails, the secure area at an airport, (arguably) at US Post Offices, and similar places [do] need to be observed (because their prohibitions are codified in state/federal law).

    I knew what you were trying to say, I just wanted to correct that little technicality for you.

    - Joe Levi http://JoeLevi.com
    The signs themselves mean nothing, it's the law that prevents you from entering. The signs just happen to reflect the law.

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    The only exception is mental health facilites. There the sign is the law. If a mental health facility doesn't have a sign probihiting weapons they're not prohibited, and vice versa.

    You are correct about other signs though.

    -joe

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    joelevi wrote:
    The only exception is mental health facilites. There the sign is the law. If a mental health facility doesn't have a sign probihiting weapons they're not prohibited, and vice versa.

    You are correct about other signs though.

    -joe
    If you read the definition in the law, it must be a mental health facility that is either operated by the state or contracts with the state or local government. Also, they are also subject to the requirements for being a secure area, such as lockers.

    76-8-311.1. Secure areas -- Items prohibited -- Penalty.
    (1) In addition to the definitions in Section 76-10-501, as used in this section:
    (a) "Correctional facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 76-8-311.3.
    (b) "Explosive" has the same meaning as defined for "explosive, chemical, or incendiary device" defined in Section 76-10-306.
    (c) "Law enforcement facility" means a facility which is owned, leased, or operated by a law enforcement agency.
    (d) "Mental health facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 62A-15-602.
    (e) (i) "Secure area" means any area into which certain persons are restricted from transporting any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
    (ii) A "secure area" may not include any area normally accessible to the public.
    (2) (a) A person in charge of a correctional, law enforcement, or mental health facility may establish secure areas within the facility and may prohibit or control by rule any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
    (b) Subsections (2)(a), (3), (4), (5), and (6) apply to higher education secure area hearing rooms referred to in Subsections 53B-3-103(2)(a)(ii) and (b).
    (3) At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to an area in which a firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive is restricted.
    (4) (a) Provisions shall be made to provide a secure weapons storage area so that persons entering the secure area may store their weapons prior to entering the secure area.
    (b) The entity operating the facility shall be responsible for weapons while they are stored in the storage area.
    (5) It is a defense to any prosecution under this section that the accused, in committing the act made criminal by this section, acted in conformity with the facility's rule or policy established pursuant to this section.
    (6) (a) Any person who knowingly or intentionally transports into a secure area of a facility any firearm, ammunition, or dangerous weapon is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (b) Any person violates Section 76-10-306 who knowingly or intentionally transports, possesses, distributes, or sells any explosive in a secure area of a facility.
    62A-15-602 (9) "Mental health facility" means the Utah State Hospital or other facility that provides mental health services under contract with the division, a local mental health authority, or organization that contracts with a local mental health authority.

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    I didn't realize the signage requirement carried over to correctional facilities (etc.) In addition to mental healt facilities.

    It's the "secure area" which may (or may not) be created inside those facilities which require the signage.

    To your point, the signs have no weight of law, rather the creation of those "secure areas" requires the signage.

    My point was saying that the signs carry no weight in law may give the impression that one can ignore all such signs, which of course is not what you meant, but one might infer.

    Thank you for pointing out the code.

    - Joe

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    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    lol ok... so we're all in agreement then.

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    UtahJarhead wrote:
    lol ok...* so we're all in agreement then.
    Yup! You and I agree on most topics, which I why I don't typically chime in to "correct" you.

    I just don't want people to think they can willey-nilley ignore the signs (nor should they ignorantly obey the signs).

    Bottom line, if you're carrying a sidearm: KNOW THE LAW, don't take a sign's word for it (or a security officer, or a LEO for that matter).

    Keep up the good work.

    - Joe Levi, http://JoeLevi.com

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    well i guess some one saw this thread and contacted the mall becausei got an email from someone high up on the malls food chain (General Manager) and this is what thy said.

    JT,



    I support the right to carry. However, the mall is private property.
    Just wanted you to know that the "no weapons" notice is posted at every
    entrance. I didn't know how to post this on the blog. Can you update?



    Scott Hansen, CSM

    General Manager

    Provo Towne Centre

    ph. 801-852-2401

    fx. 801-852-2405



    Please remember to shop Provo Towne Centre first.
    I have thought about sending an email back saying, I'm glad that you support the right to carry but as long as you ban it from the mall i will not be stepping foot in there. as i don't support any company that try's to take away my constitutional right to bear arms.

    now can thy ban you from the mall. like if i do carry there and thy say i have to leave and i do but next week i go back is that a problem. i mean how many times can you be asked to leave.


  20. #20
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    JTknives wrote:
    well i guess some one saw this thread and contacted the mall becausei got an email from someone high up on the malls food chain (General Manager) and this is what thy said.

    JT,



    I support the right to carry. However, the mall is private property.
    Just wanted you to know that the "no weapons" notice is posted at every
    entrance. I didn't know how to post this on the blog. Can you update?



    Scott Hansen, CSM

    General Manager

    Provo Towne Centre

    ph. 801-852-2401

    fx. 801-852-2405



    Please remember to shop Provo Towne Centre first.
    I have thought about sending an email back saying, I'm glad that you support the right to carry but as long as you ban it from the mall i will not be stepping foot in there. as i don't support any company that try's to take away my constitutional right to bear arms.

    now can thy ban you from the mall. like if i do carry there and thy say i have to leave and i do but next week i go back is that a problem. i mean how many times can you be asked to leave.
    They can ask you as many times as they want. Until they say "Never come back here" it's not trespassing. Even by law, trespassing would be hard to stick because you have to significantly interfere with their day-to-day business. I wish I could find the UC for it. Otherwise, if you want to go back the next week, do it.

  21. #21
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    UtahJarhead wrote:
    They can ask you as many times as they want. Until they say "Never come back here" it's not trespassing. Even by law, trespassing would be hard to stick because you have to significantly interfere with their day-to-day business. I wish I could find the UC for it. Otherwise, if you want to go back the next week, do it.
    76-6-206. Criminal trespass.
    (1) As used in this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
    (2) A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, under circumstances not amounting to burglary as defined in Section 76-6-202, 76-6-203, or 76-6-204 or a violation of Section 76-10-2402 regarding commercial terrorism:
    (a) he enters or remains unlawfully on property and:
    (i) intends to cause annoyance or injury to any person or damage to any property, including the use of graffiti as defined in Section 76-6-107;
    (ii) intends to commit any crime, other than theft or a felony; or
    (iii) is reckless as to whether his presence will cause fear for the safety of another;
    (b) knowing his entry or presence is unlawful, he enters or remains on property as to which notice against entering is given by:
    (i) personal communication to the actor by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
    (ii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or
    (iii) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders; or
    (c) he enters a condominium unit in violation of Subsection 57-8-7(7).
    (3) (a) A violation of Subsection (2)(a) or (b) is a class B misdemeanor unless it was committed in a dwelling, in which event it is a class A misdemeanor.
    (b) A violation of Subsection (2)(c) is an infraction.
    (4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
    (a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
    (b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  22. #22
    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    You rock, Sgt!

    There ya go...
    76-10-2402 regarding commercial terrorism:
    (4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
    (a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
    (b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.

    While as far as I know it's not tested, this gives the appearance of a valid defense against the charges. Again, IANAL and I don't want to be the test case.

  23. #23
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    UtahJarhead wrote:
    You rock, Sgt!

    There ya go...
    76-10-2402 regarding commercial terrorism:
    (4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
    (a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
    (b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.

    While as far as I know it's not tested, this gives the appearance of a valid defense against the charges. Again, IANAL and I don't want to be the test case.
    Are we being charged with "Commercial Terrorism" when we OC in the mall?

    Seems just a bit over the top to me on this one!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  24. #24
    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    Nope. You're CHARGED with it if the property owner asks you to leave and you don't. Again, CHARGED. Doesn't mean convicted or indicted. Section 4 of the above UC excerpt says it's a defense against the charge (a misdemeanor) if you don't interfere with their business and the place is open to the general public as the mall is.

    Again, untested waters legally.

  25. #25
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    I see that I was too subtle here....

    The discussion was about POTENTIALLY being charged with "CRIMINAL TRESPASS."

    The law you cited was "CRIMINAL TERRORISM."

    Trespass AIN'T TERRORISM!

    Therein is my query!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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