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Thread: More Case Law on Police-Encounter Gun Seizures

  1. #1
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    The short story is that a guy was seized and his gun taken from him for officer safety--the gun being carried in a lawful manner as far as the policecould tell at the momentof seizure.

    The case is Christian vs Commonwealth (2000).

    The relevance of quoting the dissent is that the dissenting justices lost the vote, meaning the other side won and their opinion became law. It is quite interesting to see how the evidence and questions of law were viewed by the dissenters compared to the majority.

    The dissent quotes below are out of context, so don't takeit to mean that for anygiven quote that the exact opposite is true. Readthe opinion, and thedissent. The dissentstarts on page 14 or so of the pdf.

    ...The police officers who seized Ricky Christian had no reasonable or articulable suspicion that he was engaged in criminal activity...

    ...[The officer] had no objective basis to believe that Christian, who was going to his home, "may have purchased illegal narcotics" from the undercover officers. Moreover, it is not illegal in Virginia to carry a gun if one is lawfully permitted to do so and if the gun is not held in a reckless or threatening manner...

    ...Christian lived in one of the apartments in the building where he was arrested. Christian did not approach the officers who were selling the imitation cocaine, and he posed no threat to them. The evidence merely proved that he entered the apartment building where he lived. Moreover, no evidence proved that Christian was going to the laundry room or posed a threat to the officers who were waiting in the laundry room...

    ...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf

    Edited to Add: The quotes are out of context. Don't take them literally and standing alone as statements of law!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    ...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf

    *
    Damn you!!

    I had my evening planned out, now I have to go read this thing so I can figure out how they conclude that a weapon MUST be openly displayed between my car and my house.

    If I am a CCW holder and am in CC mode, I DO NOT HAVE TO OC THE WEAPON FROM THE CAR TO THE HOUSE. In fact in my drivewaay I do not need the CCW to cover the weapon at all.

    Scotch. That is what you need, more Scotch.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  3. #3
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    ...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf

    Damn you!!

    I had my evening planned out, now I have to go read this thing so I can figure out how they conclude that a weapon MUST be openly displayed between my car and my house.

    If I am a CCW holder and am in CC mode, I DO NOT HAVE TO OC THE WEAPON FROM THE CAR TO THE HOUSE. In fact in my drivewaay I do not need the CCW to cover the weapon at all.

    Scotch. That is what you need, more Scotch.

    Regards

    I told you the quotes were out of context!

    Are you sure that its more scotch you need, and not less?

    Sheesh. I'd better add more disclaimer for any scotch-soaked readers.

    :P

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    ...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf

    Damn you!!

    I had my evening planned out, now I have to go read this thing so I can figure out how they conclude that a weapon MUST be openly displayed between my car and my house.

    If I am a CCW holder and am in CC mode, I DO NOT HAVE TO OC THE WEAPON FROM THE CAR TO THE HOUSE. In fact in my drivewaay I do not need the CCW to cover the weapon at all.

    Scotch. That is what you need, more Scotch.

    Regards
    Too much malt Hawk.

    The quote above is part of a dissenting opinion - not the winning side.
    Also note that no statute is quoted, because there ain't none.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Well here are the passages I liked-

    "In a state that permits ownership and open display of firearms, the
    mere fact that a person may be armed does not provide a reason
    to suspect that the person is violating the law.

    Moreover, "the characteristic of an area cannot serve to
    impute criminal activity to a person by virtue of that person's
    presence in the area." Riley v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 494,
    498-99, 412 S.E.2d 724, 726 (1992). In Brown, the United States
    Supreme Court has also noted that a neighborhood's characteristic tells nothing about the conduct of the person in it.


    And this further on.

    As stated earlier, his open possession of the
    firearm was proof only of lawful compliance with the Virginia
    statute.
    When the circumstances objectively establish perfectly
    lawful activity, no cause exists for reasonable suspicion of
    criminal activity.


    Of course these are all from the dissenting opinion.

    Screw the Scotch... where is my Grand Mariner ...

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Screw the Scotch... where is my Grand Mariner ...

    Regards
    I know exactly where my Grand Mariner is.:P

    Nectar of the gods it is.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Screw the Scotch... where is my Grand Mariner ...

    Regards
    I know exactly where my Grand Mariner is.*:P *

    Nectar of the gods it is.

    ******** Yata hey
    +1..E9
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  8. #8
    Regular Member Virginiaplanter's Avatar
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    On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

    Benton, J., dissenting.


    Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


    Benton, J., dissenting Search



  9. #9
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    After so much time in the Navy I never met a grand mariner, however I have had my share of Grand Marnier .
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    nuc65 wrote:
    After so much time in the Navy I never met a grand mariner, however I have had my share of Grand Marnier .
    Well have a few and see how well you spell.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Scotch. That is what you need, more Scotch.

    Regards
    WE DISAGREE AGAIN! JAMESONS'! WE NEED MORE JAMESONS'!
    Bitka Sve Reava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    No ... Single malt specifically ...
    Glenfiddich
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  13. #13
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

    Benton, J., dissenting.


    Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


    Benton, J., dissenting Search
    Judging from this short assessment found here (announcing his retirement, by the way): "Benton generally is regarded as the most liberal member of the court and dissents far more often than any other judge, usually on behalf of criminal defendants", I'm pretty sure this is a good thing.

    I'm also pretty sure that if, over the next 25 years or so, we were to see hundreds of hits on the search phrase:

    "Sotomayor, S., dissenting"

    that would also not be a bad thing at all. It's when you see hits on "Roberts, J., dissenting" that I start to worry.



    TFred

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    I am partial to a double barrel Balvanie.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  15. #15
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

    Benton, J., dissenting.


    Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


    Benton, J., dissenting Search

    The Virginia Court of Appeals is full of ex-prosecutors, so they often take the side of government, or the cops.

    Benton and Elder actually uphold the Bill of Rights, which is why they often dissent in these 4th Amendment cases.

    Judge Benton retired and can no longer help. Elder is still on the bench.

    In any case, what you want is to appeal the the Virginia Supreme Court. There you will receive a fair hearing and better odds of prevailing on 4th Amendment issues.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    No ... Single malt specifically ... Glenfiddich
    If you're a single-malt man, I highly recommend you try (if you have not) Edradour.

    http://www.edradour.co.uk/

    Simply the best single-malt Scotch I have ever tasted. My folks brought some back for me when they went to Scotland some years back. Exceptional.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

  18. #18
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    No ... Single malt specifically ...
    Glenfiddich
    Ambroshia!! Nectar of the Gods!

    Good grief! I've helped with the hijack of my own thread.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    No ... Single malt specifically ...
    Glenfiddich
    Ambroshia!! Nectar of the Gods!

    Good grief! I've helped with the hijack of my own thread.
    :P

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

    Benton, J., dissenting.


    Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


    Benton, J., dissenting Search

    So far I've read two of his dissents. Gotta say he makes sense.

    I'll have to add a new name to my list of desirable middle-names for newborn baby boys:

    • Courage
    • Danger
    • Hazard
    • Dissent


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

    Benton, J., dissenting.


    Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


    Benton, J., dissenting Search

    So far I've read two of his dissents. Gotta say he makes sense.

    I'll have to add a new name to my list of desirable middle-names for newborn baby boys:
    • Courage
    • Danger
    • Hazard
    • Dissent
    Please assure us you are not planning on breeding?:what:
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'll have to add a new name to my list of desirable middle-names for newborn baby boys:
    • Courage
    • Danger
    • Hazard
    • Dissent
    Please assure us you are not planning on breeding?:what:
    Only Manuel Lee.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'll have to add a new name to my list of desirable middle-names for newborn baby boys:
    • Courage
    • Danger
    • Hazard
    • Dissent
    Please assure us you are not planning on breeding?:what:
    Only Manuel Lee.

    ******* Yata hey
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'll have to add a new name to my list of desirable middle-names for newborn baby boys:
    • Courage
    • Danger
    • Hazard
    • Dissent
    Please assure us you are not planning on breeding?:what:
    Only Manuel Lee.

    Yata hey


  25. #25
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'll have to add a new name to my list of desirable middle-names for newborn baby boys:
    • Courage
    • Danger
    • Hazard
    • Dissent
    Please assure us you are not planning on breeding?:what:
    Only Manuel Lee.

    Yata hey
    ROFLMAO!!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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