• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

More Case Law on Police-Encounter Gun Seizures

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

The short story is that a guy was seized and his gun taken from him for officer safety--the gun being carried in a lawful manner as far as the policecould tell at the momentof seizure.

The case is Christian vs Commonwealth (2000).

The relevance of quoting the dissent is that the dissenting justices lost the vote, meaning the other side won and their opinion became law. It is quite interesting to see how the evidence and questions of law were viewed by the dissenters compared to the majority.

The dissent quotes below are out of context, so don't takeit to mean that for anygiven quote that the exact opposite is true. Readthe opinion, and thedissent. The dissentstarts on page 14 or so of the pdf.

...The police officers who seized Ricky Christian had no reasonable or articulable suspicion that he was engaged in criminal activity...

...[The officer] had no objective basis to believe that Christian, who was going to his home, "may have purchased illegal narcotics" from the undercover officers. Moreover, it is not illegal in Virginia to carry a gun if one is lawfully permitted to do so and if the gun is not held in a reckless or threatening manner...

...Christian lived in one of the apartments in the building where he was arrested. Christian did not approach the officers who were selling the imitation cocaine, and he posed no threat to them. The evidence merely proved that he entered the apartment building where he lived. Moreover, no evidence proved that Christian was going to the laundry room or posed a threat to the officers who were waiting in the laundry room...

...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf

Edited to Add: The quotes are out of context. Don't take them literally and standing alone as statements of law!!
 

Hawkflyer

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
3,309
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Citizen wrote:
...SNIP
...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf

 

Damn you!! :banghead:

I had my evening planned out, now I have to go read this thing so I can figure out how they conclude that a weapon MUST be openly displayed between my car and my house.

If I am a CCW holder and am in CC mode, I DO NOT HAVE TO OC THE WEAPON FROM THE CAR TO THE HOUSE. In fact in my drivewaay I do not need the CCW to cover the weapon at all.:cuss:

Scotch. That is what you need, more Scotch.

Regards
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

Hawkflyer wrote:
Citizen wrote:
...SNIP
...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf


Damn you!! :banghead:

I had my evening planned out, now I have to go read this thing so I can figure out how they conclude that a weapon MUST be openly displayed between my car and my house.

If I am a CCW holder and am in CC mode, I DO NOT HAVE TO OC THE WEAPON FROM THE CAR TO THE HOUSE. In fact in my drivewaay I do not need the CCW to cover the weapon at all.:cuss:

Scotch. That is what you need, more Scotch.

Regards


I told you the quotes were out of context!

Are you sure that its more scotch you need, and not less?

Sheesh. I'd better add more disclaimer for any scotch-soaked readers.

:p
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Hawkflyer wrote:
Citizen wrote:
...SNIP
...carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm from his automobile to his residence, the firearm must be openly displayed...

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0558981.pdf


Damn you!! :banghead:

I had my evening planned out, now I have to go read this thing so I can figure out how they conclude that a weapon MUST be openly displayed between my car and my house.

If I am a CCW holder and am in CC mode, I DO NOT HAVE TO OC THE WEAPON FROM THE CAR TO THE HOUSE. In fact in my drivewaay I do not need the CCW to cover the weapon at all.:cuss:

Scotch. That is what you need, more Scotch.

Regards
Too much malt Hawk. :)

The quote above is part of a dissenting opinion - not the winning side.
Also note that no statute is quoted, because there ain't none.

Yata hey
 

Hawkflyer

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
3,309
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Well here are the passages I liked-

"In a state that permits ownership and open display of firearms, the
mere fact that a person may be armed does not provide a reason
to suspect that the person is violating the law.

Moreover, "the characteristic of an area cannot serve to
impute criminal activity to a person by virtue of that person's
presence in the area." Riley v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 494,
498-99, 412 S.E.2d 724, 726 (1992). In Brown, the United States
Supreme Court has also noted that a neighborhood's characteristic tells nothing about the conduct of the person in it.


And this further on.

As stated earlier, his open possession of the
firearm was proof only of lawful compliance with the Virginia
statute.
When the circumstances objectively establish perfectly
lawful activity, no cause exists for reasonable suspicion of
criminal activity.


Of course these are all from the dissenting opinion.:banghead:

Screw the Scotch... where is my Grand Mariner ...

Regards
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Hawkflyer wrote:
Screw the Scotch... where is my Grand Mariner ...

Regards
I know exactly where my Grand Mariner is.:p :lol:

Nectar of the gods it is.

Yata hey
 

Virginiaplanter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
402
Location
, ,
imported post

On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

Benton, J., dissenting.


Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


Benton, J., dissenting Search
 

Hawkflyer

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
3,309
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

No ... Single malt specifically ...
Glenfiddich
itchy-scratchy.gif
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

Virginiaplanter wrote:
On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

Benton, J., dissenting.


Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


Benton, J., dissenting Search
Judging from this short assessment found here (announcing his retirement, by the way): "Benton generally is regarded as the most liberal member of the court and dissents far more often than any other judge, usually on behalf of criminal defendants", I'm pretty sure this is a good thing.

I'm also pretty sure that if, over the next 25 years or so, we were to see hundreds of hits on the search phrase:

"Sotomayor, S., dissenting"

that would also not be a bad thing at all. It's when you see hits on "Roberts, J., dissenting" that I start to worry.

:)

TFred
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
imported post

Virginiaplanter wrote:
On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

Benton, J., dissenting.


Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


Benton, J., dissenting Search
The Virginia Court of Appeals is full of ex-prosecutors, so they often take the side of government, or the cops.

Benton and Elder actually uphold the Bill of Rights, which is why they often dissent in these 4th Amendment cases.

Judge Benton retired and can no longer help. Elder is still on the bench.

In any case, what you want is to appeal the the Virginia Supreme Court. There you will receive a fair hearing and better odds of prevailing on 4th Amendment issues.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

Virginiaplanter wrote:
On a funny note you will notice one of the justices names. At first I used to think it was the guys real name, becasue it showed up so often as such:

Benton, J., dissenting.


Do a search of that phrase in quotes and see how many times Judge Dissenting's name comes up


Benton, J., dissenting Search

So far I've read two of his dissents. Gotta say he makes sense.

I'll have to add a new name to my list of desirable middle-names for newborn baby boys:

  • Courage
  • Danger
  • Hazard
  • Dissent
:)
 
Top