AK Underfolder as Pistol

Kimberguy · Dec 13, 2009

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kwikrnu wrote:

T Vance wrote:

I'm not positive on where to find the law (online), but I recently register my AK as a pistol. The gun must have a pistol grip, the gun in overall length must be between 26' to 30'.

I just removed my buttstock. Once I get some money I plan on putting a folding understock on it. Since I have my CPL, all I had to do was fill out a RI-60 form, and sell the gun to myself (for free). It was that easy.

Click to expand...

Ok, so what you have is a rifle according to the federal government, but a pistol according to MI.

i believe that the feds classifies it as "Any Other Weapon" is this case, MI allows you to conceal carry it as long as it is registered as a pistol in MI.

BreakingTheMold · Dec 13, 2009

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"or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm."

I've been racking my brain, and maybe im just over thinking it. But what does that mean?

Kimberguy · Dec 13, 2009

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BreakingTheMold wrote:

"or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm."

I've been racking my brain, and maybe im just over thinking it. But what does that mean?

that has bothered me for some time now, and I have absolutely no idea. Sounds like a way to justify calling something a pistol as they so desire.

BreakingTheMold · Dec 13, 2009

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At least i'm not the only one confused! I'll dig deeper in the morning.

Can you not carry a Rifle with a cpl? My Shorty AR gets down to 32", so it's not a pistol. I've always planned on having my pistol and a truck gun(Truck vault or similar).

Michigander · Dec 13, 2009

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Kimberguy wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

T Vance wrote:

I'm not positive on where to find the law (online), but I recently register my AK as a pistol. The gun must have a pistol grip, the gun in overall length must be between 26' to 30'.

I just removed my buttstock. Once I get some money I plan on putting a folding understock on it. Since I have my CPL, all I had to do was fill out a RI-60 form, and sell the gun to myself (for free). It was that easy.

Click to expand...

Ok, so what you have is a rifle according to the federal government, but a pistol according to MI.

Click to expand...

i believe that the feds classifies it as "Any Other Weapon" is this case, MI allows you to conceal carry it as long as it is registered as a pistol in MI.

To make things simple, and to explain some things to those who might not know, I'm going to spell out some federal definitions. Michigan law is NOT what I am talking about.

A 26-30" rifle of 50 caliber or less is an rifle by the standards of the feds. Regardless of what stock configuration it has.

If the rifle ended up under 26", it wold be an SBR.

If it started off as a Federally defined pistol (under 26", no buttstock or pistol foregrip), then ended up with a pistol grip up front, like an AMD fore grip or something similar, then, and only then, it would be an AOW. You can't make a pistol from a rifle, because any pistol made from what was originally a rifle is a SBR.

If you took an AOW pistol or regular pistol and added a buttstock but didn't make it over 26" total with a 16" + barrel, then it would be a SBR.

But if you had a pistol (as in no buttstock and probably under 16" barrel) and you put a muzzle attachment and a buttstock on it to make it long enough to make it 16" + for the barrel and 26" + OAL, that would be fine, and it would just be a rifle.

Kimberguy · Dec 13, 2009

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BreakingTheMold wrote:

At least i'm not the only one confused! I'll dig deeper in the morning.

Can you not carry a Rifle with a cpl? My Shorty AR gets down to 32", so it's not a pistol. I've always planned on having my pistol and a truck gun(Truck vault or similar).

no, a CPL does help if you want to carry a long gun, and you can do so, but you have to transport it according to law. if your firearm is 30" or shorter, you can keep it loaded in the passenger compartment of you car. It is nice to have a little something extra behind your seat in case of a zombie attack, or if you find your self in the cross fire of a heist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q7gz23rTC4

SpringerXDacp · Dec 13, 2009

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Kimberguy wrote:

BreakingTheMold wrote:

"or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm."

I've been racking my brain, and maybe im just over thinking it. But what does that mean?

Click to expand...

that has bothered me for some time now, and I have absolutely no idea. Sounds like a way to justify calling something a pistol as they so desire.

I'll go out on a limb on this one and guess that it means a type of firearm (pistol) that does not take the form of a pistol that we commonly see. Possibly, for example, that gizmo Glock created a year or two ago that in its unoperatible state it appears to be a small laptop that folds out to be a pistol (AOW)???? Hell, I'm just not sure.

BreakingTheMold · Dec 13, 2009

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Do you have a cite for long guns not being able to be loaded in the passenger compartment?

Carbon 15 here i come!

Michigander · Dec 13, 2009

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

I'll go out on a limb on this one and guess that it means a type of firearm (pistol) that does not take the form of a pistol that we commonly see. Possibly, for example, that gizmo Glock created a year or two ago that in its unoperatible state it appears to be a small laptop that folds out to be a pistol (AOW)???? Hell, I'm just not sure.

That was a system that Gene Stoner and the Russians basically came up with at the same time coincidentally, and I think it was Magpull that revisited it a couple years ago. (I'm too lazy to look it up on youtube). Magpull or whoever it was recently did use a Glock slide and barrel.

All of the designs were sub machine guns, but I'm sure had plenty of mechanical differences.

They had butt stocks, and would have been SBR's, not AOW's because of that, had it not been for the fact they were fully automatic and therefore plain and simple machine guns, regardless of how the user might have dressed them up.

Yep, it's a fact, I wasted my childhood memorizing this stuff. :uhoh:

Edit- here is a vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUKkfuzgYKY

SpringerXDacp · Dec 13, 2009

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BreakingTheMold wrote:

Do you have a cite for long guns not being able to be loaded in the passenger compartment?

Carbon 15 here i come!

750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 227d.

(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

(a) Taken down.

(b) Enclosed in a case.

(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.

(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982

SpringerXDacp · Dec 13, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

I'll go out on a limb on this one and guess that it means a type of firearm (pistol) that does not take the form of a pistol that we commonly see. Possibly, for example, that gizmo Glock created a year or two ago that in its unoperatible state it appears to be a small laptop that folds out to be a pistol (AOW)???? Hell, I'm just not sure.

Click to expand...

That was a system that Gene Stoner and the Russians basically came up with at the same time coincidentally, and I think it was Magpull that revisited it a couple years ago. (I'm too lazy to look it up on youtube). They did use a Glock slide and barrel.

All of the designs were sub machine guns, but I'm sure had plenty of mechanical differences.

They had butt stocks, and would have been SBR's, not AOW's because of that, had it not been for the fact they were fully automatic and therefore plain and simple machine guns, regardless of how the user might have dressed them up.

Yep, it's a fact, I wasted my childhood memorizing this stuff. :uhoh:

Thanks. For the life of me I could not think of any other firearm that would fit in. :lol:

Michigander · Dec 13, 2009

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What you were thinking of I have often heard described as "gadget guns". Like pen guns, cane guns, billy club guns, HK MP5 operational brief cases, stuff like that.

They are a type of AOW.

BreakingTheMold · Dec 13, 2009

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

BreakingTheMold wrote:

Do you have a cite for long guns not being able to be loaded in the passenger compartment?

Carbon 15 here i come!

Click to expand...

750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 227d.

(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

(a) Taken down.

(b) Enclosed in a case.

(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.

(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982

Does a CPL not count as 'lawful permission'?

If I'm reading that correctly, couldn't i just take the firearm apart and store it in the passenger compartment?

Guest · Dec 13, 2009

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Yes in accordance with:

750.227d (1) (a) Taken down.

SpringerXDacp · Dec 13, 2009

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BreakingTheMold wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

BreakingTheMold wrote:

Do you have a cite for long guns not being able to be loaded in the passenger compartment?

Carbon 15 here i come!

Click to expand...

750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 227d.

(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

(a) Taken down.

(b) Enclosed in a case.

(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.

(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982

Click to expand...

Does a CPL not count as 'lawful permission'?

If I'm reading that correctly, couldn't i just take the firearm apart and store it in the passenger compartment?

Unfortunately, no. CPL's only apply to firearms considered pistols in Michigan.

Take the firearm apart would meet Subdivison (a) Taken Down, IMO.

BreakingTheMold · Dec 13, 2009

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Kimberguy wrote:

they are in the process of changing this, if you have it registered to you before jan 1, 2010, you will be grandfathered in.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2009-2010/billengrossed/House/pdf/2009-hEBH-4501.pdf

But you would still be able to buy an AK pistol after that, just not register your own?

Is the "grandfathered in" being about pistols of 30 inches? Or is it The ability to register firearms manufactured as Long arms into handguns?

The Legislation is not the most clear, but then again legal jargon rarely is.

And is it only fore grips that make it a SBR, or would a butt stock make it one as well? IIRC it's the just the vertical fore grip.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=150232032

Kimberguy · Dec 13, 2009

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BreakingTheMold wrote:

Kimberguy wrote:

they are in the process of changing this, if you have it registered to you before jan 1, 2010, you will be grandfathered in.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2009-2010/billengrossed/House/pdf/2009-hEBH-4501.pdf

Click to expand...

But you would still be able to buy an AK pistol after that, just not register your own?
you will still be able to buy an AK under or side folder, but it will no longer be considered a pistol.

Is the "grandfathered in" being about pistols of 30 inches? Or is it The ability to register firearms manufactured as Long arms into handguns?
the ability to carry a pistol between 26 & 30" is what will be grandfathered in. anything registered in that range after the bill will simply be considered a rifle.

The Legislation is not the most clear, but then again legal jargon rarely is.

And is it only fore grips that make it a SBR, or would a butt stock make it one as well? IIRC it's the just the vertical fore grip.
if it has a 16" barrel, it is not a SBR, so the vertical grip and butt stock would be fine.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=150232032
pistols like that one will not be affected by the bill, a front grip and/or a stock would make that a SBR

Kimberguy · Dec 13, 2009

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not sure what i was replying too

Guest · Dec 13, 2009

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The legislation hasn't come out of committee. Until it does, and is voted on and passed, we can still register "Michigan pistols". The 01/01/10 date is meaningless. Laws aren't enacted retroactive. I don't see it happening anytime soon. Holiday vacation etc.

Radioman · Dec 17, 2009

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CV67PAT wrote:

The legislation hasn't come out of committee. Until it does, and is voted on and passed, we can still register "Michigan pistols". The 01/01/10 date is meaningless. Laws aren't enacted retroactive. I don't see it happening anytime soon. Holiday vacation etc.

I don't have a cite for this yet. I need to get some time to find it, but I was told ( I know not the most reliable) that this was attached to another bill and passed before the holiday break so as to not hold up some federal funds next year seeing as the standalone bill was stalled. Again I do not have a cite on this yet but I kinda trust the source I got this from as he knew I was looking at getting something along this line and he told me for sure get it before 12/31/09 or forget it.

Radioman

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