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Thread: Chesapeake General Hospital Public Hospital - Claiming to be private property

  1. #1
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    So I was at Chesapeake General Hospital last night. My son had been assaulted. I was, of course packing, but concealed because of the number of crazies and crack heads at the Emergency room late at night.

    Surprise, surprise, a metal detector at the entrance. I walked through it and it went off. The guard said just empty your pockets change, coins, etc. The detecctor again went off. The guard shows me a badge (looked like a gold detectives badge, but I was not sure.) He asked me if I was packing and I said "always." He was quite startled and said I had to leave the gun in my car. I challenged him and said that he was mistaken.

    He told me that the hospital was private property and that they could ban guns. I wondered when that happened because I know that the hospital used to be public, but the name has changed from hospital to regional medical center.

    I put the gun in my truck because my son needed me. He was hurt pretty bad and I didn't want to be delayed.

    Today I look online and it appears that the security guard / detective lied to me. It looks like the hospital was and still is public.

    Consumer Reports says the hospital is run by the city/state.

    The hospital website says the hospital is run by the Chesapeake Hospital Authority.

    The act which created the Chesapeake Hospital Authority clearly states in section 3 that the authority is a public instrumentality.

    I will launch a FOIA campaign against the Hospital Authority soon.

    Here is my quick research. What do you think??

    Link: http://www.consumerreports.org/health/doctors-hospitals/hospitals/hospital-ratings/chesapeake-general-hospital-6340145-general-information.htm








    The following section provides basic information about Chesapeake General Hospital. See the Report Card tab of this page for Ratings for Chesapeake General Hospital or use our map or search tool to find Ratings for other hospitals.



    [/b]Joint Commission Accreditation: Yes



    [/b]Teaching Hospital: No



    Operated By: State/local government



    Number of Beds: 310




    Link: http://www.chesapeakeregional.com/facilities/chesapeake-general-hospital



    Chesapeake General Hospital

    As the cornerstone of the Chesapeake Regional Medical Center family of services, Chesapeake General Hospital has 310 all-private beds, arranged in special nursing units to provide the best possible care for our patients.

    The hospital is a major health resource for southeastern Virginia and northeastern North Carolina residents. It has nearly 600 physicians on staff from every major discipline.

    It is governed by the Chesapeake Hospital Authority, an 11-member board composed of area citizens who ensure that the hospital remains focused on providing services the community wants and values.





    Link: http://dls.state.va.us/lrc/authorities/Chesapeake%20Hospital.pdf



    Chesapeake Hospital Authority

    Created: 1966 Acts of Assembly, c. 271.

    Amended: 1971 Acts of Assembly, c. 97

    Amended (§§ 2, 11)

    1971 Acts of Assembly, c. 245

    Provided effective date for 1971, c. 97

    1973 Acts of Assembly, c. 53

    Amended (§ 2)

    1987 Acts of Assembly, c. 396

    Amended (§§ 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

    Added (§ 7.1)

    1990 Acts of Assembly, c. 419

    Added (§ 7.2)

    1993 Acts of Assembly, c. 281, 300

    Amended (§§ 4, 5)

    1998 Acts of Assembly, c. 659, 697

    Amended (§ 2)

    1998 Acts of Assembly, c. 666, 697

    Added (§ 7.3)

    2006 Acts of Assembly, c. 658

    Amended (§§ 2, 7, 7.1, 7.2).

    § 1. There is hereby created a public body politic and corporate to be known as the "Chesapeake Hospital Authority" hereinafter referred to as "The Authority", with such public and corporate powers as are hereinafter set forth. The Authority may sue and be sued, plead and be impleaded, and shall have the power and authority to contract and be contracted with and to exercise and discharge all the powers and duties imposed and conferred upon it, as hereinafter provided. (1966, c. 271)

    § 2. The Authority shall be composed of eleven members, two of whom shall be licensed members of the medical profession, all of whom shall be appointed by the city council. The terms of the members shall be four years and staggered so that no more than four members shall be appointed in any one year; provided, however, that for terms which commence in 1999, the council shall appoint four members for four-year terms and two members for five-year terms, and for terms which commence in 2001, the council shall appoint four members for four-year terms and one member for a three-year term. Any member may be reappointed. Members shall be compensated for their services in the amount not in excess of $3,000 per annum and shall be entitled to reimbursement for necessary traveling and other expenses incurred while engaged in the performance of their duties. Each member shall continue to hold office until the earlier of the effective date of his resignation or the date on which his successor has been appointed and qualified. The council shall have the right to remove any member or officer, for

    malfeasance or misfeasance, incompetency or gross neglect of duty. Vacancies shall be filled by appointment of the council for unexpired terms, or in the case of an increase in the size of the Authority, filled by appointment of the council, which appointments may be for an initial term less than four years. Members shall take an appropriate oath of office and same shall be filed with the city clerk. Members shall elect on an annual basis one of their number as chairman and another as vice-chairman and shall also elect a secretary and treasurer for terms to be determined by them, who may or may not be one of the members. The same person may serve as both secretary and treasurer. The members shall make such rules, regulations and bylaws for their own government and procedure as they shall determine; they shall meet regularly at least once a month and may hold such special meetings as they deem necessary. (1966, c. 271; 1971, c. 97; 1973, c. 53; 1987, c. 396; 1998, c. 659, 697; 2006, c. 658)

    § 3. The Authority shall be deemed to be a public instrumentality, exercising public and essential governmental functions to provide for the public health, welfare, convenience and prosperity of the residents of the City of Chesapeake and such other persons who might be served by the Authority (“its service area”) and to provide improved medical care and related services to such residents and persons and is hereby authorized to exercise the powers conferred by the following sections. (1966, c. 271; 1987, c. 396)

    § 4. The Authority may plan, design, construct, renovate, enlarge, equip, maintain and operate projects for the purpose of providing medical care and related services and other appropriate purposes. The Authority may lease, sell or otherwise convey any or all of its projects to others who agree to provide for the operation of the same if the Authority determines that such sale, lease or other conveyance will assist, promote or further the purposes and intent of this act, subject to the provisions of § 5 below.

    "Projects" as used in this act shall mean any medical facilities and approaches thereto and appurtenances thereof. Medical facilities shall include any and all medical facilities and equipment, including, without limitation, hospitals, nursing homes, continuing care facilities, self-care facilities, medical office facilities, clinics, out-patient surgical centers, alcohol, substance abuse and drug treatment centers, laboratories, research facilities, sanitariums, hospices, facilities for the residence or care of the elderly, the handicapped or the chronically ill, residential facilities for nurses, interns, and physicians and any other kind of facility for the treatment of sick, disturbed or infirm persons, together with all related and supporting facilities and equipment necessary and desirable in connection therewith or incidental thereto, or equipment alone, including, without limitation, parking facilities, kitchen, laundry, laboratory, pharmaceutical, administrative, communications, computer and recreational facilities and equipment, storage space, mobile medical facilities, vehicles and other equipment necessary or desirable for the transportation of medical equipment or the transportation of patients.

    "Operating project" as used in this act shall mean any project operated by the Authority or directly controlled by the Authority and shall include, without limitation, parking facilities operated by the Authority or an agent therefor and medical office buildings with respect to which the Authority exercises the normal powers of a landlord. (1966, c. 271; 1987, c. 396; 1993, c. 281, 300)

    § 5. The Authority may acquire property, real or personal, by purchase, gift, devise or by the exercise of the power of eminent domain, on such terms and conditions,

    and in such manner as it may deem proper, and such rights, easements or estates therein as may be necessary for its purposes, and sell, lease and dispose of the same, or any portion thereof or interest therein whenever it shall become expedient to do so and in any manner it deems appropriate, including without limitation by the granting of mortgages and other liens, the conveyance of property to related entities and the disposition of property no longer necessary or desirable for its operations; provided, however, that the Authority may not sell or otherwise dispose of all, or substantially all, of its property providing hospital care, other than to an entity controlled by the Authority, without the approval of the City Council of the City of Chesapeake, expressed in a resolution. For purposes of the previous sentence, the granting of mortgages, deeds of trust, security interests, and other liens as security for indebtedness or other obligations of the Authority shall not be considered a sale or other disposition nor shall approval of the City Council be required for any sale or other disposition resulting from the execution or foreclosure or other enforcement of such liens or other security devices. The exercise of the power of eminent domain shall be in accordance with Chapter 1.1 of Title 25 of the Code of Virginia and shall be exercised only within the corporate limits of the City of Chesapeake and only for the purpose of acquiring property to be used for operating projects. No property of any corporation itself having the power of eminent domain may be condemned hereunder. (1966, c. 271; 1987, c. 396; 1993, c. 281, 300) ........
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sure looks that way (public) to me also.

    Would therefore appear that the search was also illegal.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    When is the next public meeting of the Hospital Authority Board? (In addition to your FOIA activity, this might be useful to attend and present them with 15.2-915)

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    http://www.chesapeakeregional.com/hospital-authority

    They are the ones subject to FOIA, so I think this is your target. We'll need to look for a January full Board meeting open to the public...

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    johnfenter wrote:
    http://www.chesapeakeregional.com/hospital-authority

    They are the ones subject to FOIA, so I think this is your target. We'll need to look for a January full Board meeting open to the public...
    At the bottom of the page
    Portions of these meetings may be held in closed session as permitted under Virginia Law.
    This is a part of the FOIA law imposed on gov. agencies. Sure looks like it's public to me.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    Sounds to me like they are preempted:

    15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

    B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

    C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Man I hate it when public employees lie to their employers, and no doubt at the direction of their managers. When you introduce them to 915, make sure you point out that they may be on the hook for paying your court costs and attorney fees.

    TFred


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    Your son Okay?

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    Regular Member floyd patriot's Avatar
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    Document your findings and take it to the hospital. Ask to speak to Chief of Security. If security is contracted out, ask for name of company.

    Submit documentation to Chief of Security BY MAILand advise of the guard's challenge. Advise that this challenge is illegal.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    How is your son doing?

    They lied to you. go get 'em.


    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    floyd patriot wrote:
    Document your findings and take it to the hospital. Ask to speak to Chief of Security. If security is contracted out, ask for name of company.

    Submit documentation to Chief of Security BY MAIL*and advise of the guard's challenge. Advise that this challenge is illegal.
    Um ... By MAIL ... Signature required.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    floyd patriot wrote:
    Document your findings and take it to the hospital. Ask to speak to Chief of Security. If security is contracted out, ask for name of company.

    Submit documentation to Chief of Security BY MAILand advise of the guard's challenge. Advise that this challenge is illegal.
    Um ... By MAIL ... Signature required.

    Regards


    ...Then we should use the terms you want to use when mailing said documentation:

    "Certified Mail, Return Receipt requested"


    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Why would you want to waste your time talking to Security, or especially a contractor? These folks are just implementing the policy that they have been told to implement. They couldn't care less if it's legal or illegal, and they don't have the authority to change it even if they wanted to.

    Some level of management is what it will take here, IMHO.

    TFred


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    Regular Member kennys's Avatar
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    I always like to write letters to places when I see things like this and this is the reply I got back. Hopefully this will supply some ammo and it has a name attached to boot.

    We received your email regarding your concerns about the ability to carry a firearm into our hospital. Chesapeake Regional Medical Center is located on private property and therefore we are allowed to prohibit weapons from being carried on the property regardless if they have a permit or not. The only exception is made for law enforcement officers.








    Where Unlawful to Carry Stragand

    Chesapeake General Hospital

    Security Department



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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    kennys wrote:
    I always like to write letters to places when I see things like this and this is the reply I got back. Hopefully this will supply some ammo and it has a name attached to boot.

    We received your email regarding your concerns about the ability to carry a firearm into our hospital. Chesapeake Regional Medical Center is located on private property and therefore we are allowed to prohibit weapons from being carried on the property regardless if they have a permit or not. The only exception is made for law enforcement officers.



    Where Unlawful to Carry Stragand

    Chesapeake General Hospital

    Security Department

    Bad part about that is they (Security Dept) probably believe that BS.

    Contacting the Regional Authority would be the best approach.
    http://www.chesapeakeregional.com/hospital-authority

    Yata hey

    BTW - They know that they are public, otherwise they would not have posted reference to the FOIA which is not required of private businesses.

    "Pursuant to the Virginia Freedom of Information Act, public notice is hereby given for meetings of the Chesapeake Hospital Authority:"

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    kennys wrote:
    I always like to write letters to places when I see things like this and this is the reply I got back. Hopefully this will supply some ammo and it has a name attached to boot.

    We received your email regarding your concerns about the ability to carry a firearm into our hospital. Chesapeake Regional Medical Center is located on private property and therefore we are allowed to prohibit weapons from being carried on the property regardless if they have a permit or not. The only exception is made for law enforcement officers.

    Chesapeake General Hospital

    Security Department
    When did this correspondence take place?

    TFred

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    kennys wrote:
    I always like to write letters to places when I see things like this and this is the reply I got back. Hopefully this will supply some ammo and it has a name attached to boot.

    We received your email regarding your concerns about the ability to carry a firearm into our hospital. Chesapeake Regional Medical Center is located on private property and therefore we are allowed to prohibit weapons from being carried on the property regardless if they have a permit or not. The only exception is made for law enforcement officers.


    Where Unlawful to Carry Stragand

    Chesapeake General Hospital

    Security Department
    If the policy originates with the local authority, then it is preempted and unenforceale. more research on this entity is needed.

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    Regular Member kennys's Avatar
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    From what I am seeing the Chesapeake Hospitol Authority owns the land. This is a snip of what I found about them.

    http://dls.state.va.us/lrc/authoriti...20Hospital.pdf

    TFred this is what I got back about an hour ago from a e-mail I sent this morning.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    kennys wrote:
    I always like to write letters to places when I see things like this and this is the reply I got back. Hopefully this will supply some ammo and it has a name attached to boot.

    We received your email regarding your concerns about the ability to carry a firearm into our hospital. Chesapeake Regional Medical Center is located on private property and therefore we are allowed to prohibit weapons from being carried on the property regardless if they have a permit or not. The only exception is made for law enforcement officers.


    Where Unlawful to Carry Stragand

    Chesapeake General Hospital

    Security Department
    If the policy originates with the local authority, then it is preempted and unenforceale. more research on this entity is needed.
    Did we ever figure out what happens if an "authority" rents property from a private owner? If that private owner can
    prohibit, what's to keep the authority from just asking them to do so, to circumvent the law?

    TFred


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    Regular Member kennys's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Did we ever figure out what happens if an "authority" rents property from a private owner? If that private owner can
    prohibit, what's to keep the authority from just asking them to do so, to circumvent the law?

    TFred
    IANL I couldn't tell you, mabe user or VCDL pres will direct us or someone that has been down that road. I am assuming though from the above link the Authority owns this but I may have missed something. If someone knows how to get tax map data if it is online for that area it would help.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    kennys wrote:
    From what I am seeing the Chesapeake Hospitol Authority owns the land. This is a snip of what I found about them.

    http://dls.state.va.us/lrc/authoriti...20Hospital.pdf

    TFred this is what I got back about an hour ago from a e-mail I sent this morning.
    I do not see this being limited to the land only at all - real and personal property is included IMO.

    BTW - from that link the following:

    § 3. The Authority shall be deemed to be a public instrumentality, exercising public and essential governmental functions to provide for the public health, welfare, convenience and prosperity of the residents of the City of Chesapeake and such other persons who might be served by the Authority (“its service area”) and to provide improved medical care and related services to such residents and persons and is hereby authorized to exercise the powers conferred by the following sections. (1966, c. 271; 1987, c. 396)

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member kennys's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    kennys wrote:
    From what I am seeing the Chesapeake Hospitol Authority owns the land. This is a snip of what I found about them.

    http://dls.state.va.us/lrc/authoriti...20Hospital.pdf

    TFred this is what I got back about an hour ago from a e-mail I sent this morning.
    I do not see this being limited to the land only at all - real and personal property is included IMO.

    BTW - from that link the following:

    § 3. The Authority shall be deemed to be a public instrumentality, exercising public and essential governmental functions to provide for the public health, welfare, convenience and prosperity of the residents of the City of Chesapeake and such other persons who might be served by the Authority (“its service area”) and to provide improved medical care and related services to such residents and persons and is hereby authorized to exercise the powers conferred by the following sections. (1966, c. 271; 1987, c. 396)

    Yata hey

    I see you caught that too.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    kennys wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    kennys wrote:
    From what I am seeing the Chesapeake Hospitol Authority owns the land. This is a snip of what I found about them.

    http://dls.state.va.us/lrc/authoriti...20Hospital.pdf

    TFred this is what I got back about an hour ago from a e-mail I sent this morning.
    I do not see this being limited to the land only at all - real and personal property is included IMO.

    BTW - from that link the following:

    § 3. The Authority shall be deemed to be a public instrumentality, exercising public and essential governmental functions to provide for the public health, welfare, convenience and prosperity of the residents of the City of Chesapeake and such other persons who might be served by the Authority (“its service area”) and to provide improved medical care and related services to such residents and persons and is hereby authorized to exercise the powers conferred by the following sections. (1966, c. 271; 1987, c. 396)

    Yata hey

    I see you caught that too.
    Perhaps someone local could contact the Chesapeake City Attorney with these cites in hand.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    It is NOT private property.

    I just checked the records and it is in the name of Chesapake Hospital Authority

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    No question in my mind, based on what y'all have said. If it's an "authority or ...local governmental entity, including a department or agency", then "no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the ... possession,... ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute." Va. Code section 15.1-915.

    You've got to put them on notice that they're not in compliance, otherwise, what they do is not "in bad faith". If you're challenging behavior, as opposed to an ordinance, you have to show that it was in bad faith in order to recover attorneys' fees. Don't send a "lawyer letter", because the person sending the letter needs to be able to act as a witness at trial.

    If you merely printed off excerpts from this thread with a short "I thought you should be aware of this..." note and send it to the chairman of the board of directors, or some such person, that's sufficient notice to the hospital.

    Besides, it doesn't matter whether the land is owned by the hospital or not. Even if they rented it out from some private person, it wouldn't make any difference, because the hospital itself is a public agency.

    By the way, stopping a gun owner at the entrance, and interfering with his care of his child, is an "arrest". Any time a person is faced with intimidation or threat such that they are not "free to leave", that's an "arrest" (an old Norman French word that simply means, "stop"). False arrest is unlawful and tortious. I wouldn't take the case on a contingent fee basis, but the statute cited above does say that the award of attorneys' fees is in addition to any other relief awarded. If there was any suggestion of a threat of an improper touch, that's also an assault. ("Offer or threat to engage in the offensive, unprivileged touching of the person of another without cause, justification, or excuse."; often confused with battery, which is requires the actual touch.)

    It just occurred to me, as well, that the act of lying about the nature of the ownership was a violation of the Virginia Consumer Protection Act, section 59.1-200(14). A public entity doesn't have sovereign immunity if it's proprietary in nature, rather than administrative or ministerial.

    There is a specific procedure for suing a municipal corporation that requires certified mail to their attorney, I think it has to be six months ahead of the filing, if I remember correctly. Such a letter could be sufficient notice.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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