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Thread: Using our First Amendment Rights to support our Second...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I recently saw a post in one of the threads here (in one of the State sections, I think...) where someone recommended that OC'ers go to their respective City Council meetings and during the "Public Comments" time of the meetings, inform their local City Council and LEOs that they will be OCing, and that unlawful harassment or infringement of their rights will not be acceptable. He argued that since such announcements are entered into the public record, that it is just one more way for us, as OCers, to cover our legal behinds, and that it removes the excuse from local LEO's that they didn't know who we are or why we were carrying...

    So I propose this:

    We're always barking on this forum about our 2A rights, but it seems that few of us have taken the opportunity to publicly exercise our 1A rights in support and defense of our RKBA. Perhaps we could draft "statements" for each state, citing statute and case law in support of Open Carry, and take this guy's advise and enter these statements into the Public Record. If EVERYONE who was OCing did this, it would produce a number of results--all positive in my opinion:

    1) local LEO's and governments would be officially ON NOTICE that harassment and unlawful detention and searches will NOT be tolerated, and will be met with legal action, as they are in violation of State statutes, Federal Law ("color of law" prohibitions), and Case Law, and

    2) The perceived numbers of law-abiding citizens who are OCers would be greatly increased in the eyes of our elected officials, and that would show them that we're not just a few lone gun-nuts, but a growing, vibrant, and well-educated segment of the population, and

    3) It serves to cover our butts, because such statements entered into the public record become legally binding to the government and to local LEO's, and erase their "we didn't know who you were or what you were doing" excuse for stopping us and intimidating us for lawful OC.

    I'm drafting my own statement (and publishing it here for comment), and planing to attend the City Council Meetings in Washington NC and Greenville NC (where I live, and where I do most of my shopping) at their next sessions in January. If there are any OCers who want to join me, any support would be appreciated.

    However, please be advised that the Washington NC City Council meetings are held in the Municipal Building, which also houses the City Jail, and therefore is a "no carry zone". I'm still researching Greenville's meeting site...
    Imagine, if just 5 people did this in every town. They would think it was a trend.

    Imagine if 10 people did this in every town--they might think it was some sort of organization.

    And imagine if 100 people--yes, 100 people went to their City Council Meetings, announced that they were OC'ers, and walked out--they'd think it was a movement...

    (apologies to Arlo Guthrie, and "Alice's Restaurant"...)
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    This is an excellent idea and I am stealing it and taking it to the Washington State forum!

    Kudos
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Thanks, Gogodaws. But please feel free to check back to this thread, and keep an eye on the text I come up with. Maybe you can tailor it to your specific state. No reason to completely re-invent the wheel...

    Good luck!

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I feel that O-C is is exercising your 1A protected right to freedom of speech and expression. Because you are expressing yourself by the act of O-C.

    So basically you are exercising a few different protected rights at the same time.

    I am not one for asking permisssion, or announcing what I will be doing. I just do it, if someone has a problem with it, they are more than welcome to exercise their 1A rights by having a conversation with me about it.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Nutczak,

    I understand your point, and it's a good one...

    But the point behind my idea is to sort of use the system against itself.

    Making such a public-record announcement is not asking permission. It's stating publicly and legally that we are going to be engaged in a lawful activity, and will not tolerate harassment. This sets into motion a chain of legal events that essentially makes us immune from such harassment. Entering such a statement into the public record obligates your City and local LEOs to leave you alone, because they've been "put on notice", and leaves them open to litigation should they decide to act "under color of law" to harass, intimidate, or otherwise act unlawfully.

    One of the keys to successful activism is to understand how the system works, and to play it against itself. If you make such an announcement, and a month later you get arrested, or have your weapon seized by some LEO who doesn't like the idea of OC, all you need to do is FOIA the LEO's cruiser-cam tapes AND a copy of the minutes of the City Council meeting and present them together to your DA or judge with a letter on your lawyers stationery stating your intent to file a Federal civil rights suit. Any DA who cares about keeping his job would immediately toss such a case against you out the window, once he'd realized the City had prior notice that you were going to be OCing. One of the last things these folks want to do is get involved in a civil rights violation case. A local Court system that is perceived by the public as actively engaged in civil rights violations is going to have a WHOLE lot of problems from ALL sorts of different groups, and a lot of them are MUCH bigger and more powerful than the OC movement. And that is not a can of worms any municipality wants to open...

    It's sort of like applying for a permit to have a parade. If you "play the game" and some LEO decided he doesn't like your cause and tries to break it up, it's a VERY clear-cut case of civil rights infringement. But if some rowdy mob assembles and starts marching down the street yelling and waving signs--the 1A may very likely take a back seat to charges of "inciting a riot" or "creating a civil disturbance"--and any good DA could make those stick like glue. And you're probably not going to get to much sympathy from the public...

    The "social contract" of our great Republic is a delicate dance--created by lawyers--and it is based on some very well-crafted rules and principles. If you take a little time to understand how to "play" the system against itself, and put a little thought into your actions, you can use almost ANY sort of legal activity as a very effective form of activism and protest. And if you play the game right, you can set up a situation where ANY retaliation against you under "color of law" will be an instant "get out of jail free" card, and will automatically put the offending "official" parties in the "penalty box"...

    Knowing the letter of the law is just part of the game in activism.

    We need to start thinking like the Civil Rights leaders in the US during the '50's and '60s. Think outside the box. Use the laws to create a shield for yourself, not as a bludgeon against the oppressors. Let THEM create a situation where, even in the eyes of someone who might not be sympathetic to your cause, THEIR actions appear egregious, unlawful, and oppressive. Create conditions that other people--ESPECIALLY people who are not sympathetic to your cause--can sympathize with. Create legal conditions that when breached, other people can look at you and say "that could be me", and use that to turn the tide of public opinion in your favor.

    Open Carry, like ANY form of activism, IS a game. It's a very serious game, with the potential for very serious consequences. But I think we need to stop putting so much energy into this whole "F--- the authorities" attitude, and start using the laws of our great nation the way the Founding Fathers intended--as a legal tool AGAINST tyranny.

    We need to utilize the Constitution and our local and State laws not so much in an offensive manner, and maybe not rely on them so much in a defensive manner, but perhaps to use them more as "active security systems", and allow those who would violate our rights to be "hoist by their own petards"...
    Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while
    defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

    --Sun Tzu
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Dreamer!

    Again, very well said. I took a few years of 1A law in college and I agree, many of the same principles should be used to expand our cause. It takes time and many little steps. After time you look behind and you see how far all of those little steps took us.

    One of the many 1a principles that I am interested in is that of 'public accomadation'. Meaning, although it may be private property (i.e. a mall), the public has reason to believe they are invited and thier rights do not stop at the front step. This has been incorporated into 1a law and over time I would like to see it incorporated into 2a as well.


    Live Free or Die!

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    I actually have been thinking about writing a letter to send to the editors of some local papers. I wonder if they would pick it up.

    Dreamer, you've got some excellent points and good things to think about. Earlier, I was practicing a LEO encounter with a LEO, and damn, what do you know, I actually got NERVOUS going over my lines and actions. I was imagining talking to a LEO that was a bit combative in an otherwise peaceful and non-crime situation. I was disappointed with myself, so apparently I have some things to get over or at least get more confident with quoting law and variations on "I do not consent to..." and "Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

    What have I gotten my self into...

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    Just curious.

    would it not serve the same purpose by posting a Legal notice in the local paper? Similar to notices we see where "Joe Schmo declares no finanial liability for anyone or made by anyone other than self, from this date forward." or those Notices to operate under ficticious name.

    Does this count as "public record"?

    Fortunately, where I'm at this sort of thing isn't necessary. I've been OCing since Sept of 08 without any harrassment of any kind by LEO or business owners.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    Just curious.

    would it not serve the same purpose by posting a Legal notice in the local paper? Similar to notices we see where "Joe Schmo declares no finanial liability for anyone or made by anyone other than self, from this date forward." or those Notices to operate under ficticious name.

    Does this count as "public record"?

    Fortunately, where I'm at this sort of thing isn't necessary. I've been OCing since Sept of 08 without any harrassment of any kind by LEO or business owners.
    That is strange. Well, not a whole lot people read the public records posted in papers and I believe public record notices come through the government channel (marriages, transfer of real estate, liens, bankruptcies, etc.) but I guess there may be some kind of "public notice" for the public in some newspapers. Interesting point though.

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    tekshogun wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    Just curious.

    would it not serve the same purpose by posting a Legal notice in the local paper? Similar to notices we see where "Joe Schmo declares no finanial liability for anyone or made by anyone other than self, from this date forward." or those Notices to operate under ficticious name.

    Does this count as "public record"?

    Fortunately, where I'm at this sort of thing isn't necessary. I've been OCing since Sept of 08 without any harrassment of any kind by LEO or business owners.
    That is strange. Well, not a whole lot people read the public records posted in papers and I believe public record notices come through the government channel (marriages, transfer of real estate, liens, bankruptcies, etc.) but I guess there may be some kind of "public notice" for the public in some newspapers. Interesting point though.
    Not a whole lot of people go to city councel meetings or read the minutes of those meetings, either. But a "Notice" published in a newspaper should count as "public record".

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty.
    It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply
    even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty
    secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he
    violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach
    to himself.

    --Thomas Paine
    Announcements made in the "Public Discussion" section of City Council Meetings go into the Minutes of the City Council, and are published in their Archives. As such, they are "legal documents". Almost every City Council Meeting I know of requires all City Officials to be present--which include the Chief of Police, the City Attorney, and the Mayor.

    Making a statement such as I've detailed above in the physical presence of the CLEO of a city, and the city's Prime Legal Representative, and the city's Chief Elected Executive Official, PLUS the Minutes record of your announcement and record of their attendance would mean that they were ALL aware of who you are, and what you are doing as far as lawful OC.

    Since, under our State Constitution (and supported by NC Case Law), it is perfectly legal to OC in NC (if you are legal to possess and/or purchase), it stands to reason that any harassment that may come your way in the future would be in direct violation of their foreknowledge that you are 1) a law-abiding citizen, 2) are functioning within your protected rights under law, and 3) would be done under the knowledge of them breaking the law in doing so. Having been forewarned that such harassment was a Federal Civil Rights violation under Color of Law codes removes any sort of exemption against civil or criminal action that your local LEA (and individual LEOs) may have if they continue to harass people who they KNOW are lawfully OCing.

    Unless they protest, and can cite specific statutes or codes that prevent you from OCing (which they CAN'T), there is nothing that they could do, legally, in the future. (and under NC and Federal law, there is NOTHING they can do to prevent or regulate OC, unless you live in Cary or Durham) You've already identified yourself, and proven that you are legal to possess.

    I would hope that any LEA would issue a "do not harass this person for OC" memo to all their officers in light of such an announcement.

    But the REAL point of all this is to 1) create a paper trail that establishes our position on lawful carry, and 2) gives notice to municipalities that violation of our state- and federally-protected civil rights will NOT be tolerated and will be met with legal action.

    There's not a city in the country (with the possible exception of NYC--and Bloomberg uses his OWN money for his special brand of anti-2A harassment) that can afford to intentionally put itself in a position of defending against a civil rights violation lawsuit, ESPECIALLY with an established paper trail that they were notified beforehand of the situation in question...

    As a caveat, I've been OCing for almost 1 year, and have not had a single negative incident with either LEOs or citizens. I am lucky enough to live in a city where the local LEO's (and most of the Sheriff's department) are supportive of OC, and many of them know me from my job as a law-abiding, upstanding citizen. I'm not proposing we do this because of something I've encountered. I'm offering this idea as a tool for using the "system" in our favor in a proactive, preemptive manner.

    It is time we, as OC'ers get off the "defensive". We need to stop thinking about what we'll do if we are harassed, and start putting some organized energy into taking measures that ensure we don't get harassed in the first place. I see the tactic I've outlines as a possible tool toward this end.

    I am seeing a disturbing increase in some regions of NC with regards to harassment of OCers (Jacksonville springs to mind!), and I think it's about time we put these local governments "on notice" that such blatantly unlawful and un-Constitutional acts of harassment and intimidation MUST stop, because they are an abridgment of a fundamental Human Right, are contrary to the foundational principles of our fine Republic, and are in fact unlawful under NC Statutes, and Federal Civil Rights codes.

    It is our DUTY as citizens to hold our government responsible for it's actions, and to "call them out" when they engage in blatant violations of their own laws, codes, and statutes. We need to remind our elected officials and LEA's who they are REALLY working for, and what their job REALLY is. We need to remind them of the Oaths they take, and of the fact that we, the people, take those Oaths seriously and expect them to as well.


    "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must,
    like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

    --Thomas Paine
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I see your point, Dreamer, concerning making a delcaration in person, before those you intend to put on notice.

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    But the REAL point of all this is to 1) create a paper trail that establishes our position on lawful carry, and 2) gives notice to municipalities that violation of our state- and federally-protected civil rights will NOT be tolerated and will be met with legal action.
    It's called putting your ducks in a row

    This might even help KimberGuy in Michigan where he is being harrassed by the LEO's ... I guarantee that the attorney and the mayor will be looking over the Chief's shoulder to be sure that all officers are completely up-to-date on the OC/CC laws. It would certainly be cheaper for KimberGuy.
    cheers - okboomer
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    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    Dreamer, I understand your point and I agree with you.

    I guess it just comes down to the general attitude about gunsof the general public where one resides. I did not feel it necessary to lay out a plan like that for my area but I understand why you would feel the need to do so in your area. Cover your arse!! It makes things easier ifand when you do get harassed. Good move on your part.

    For instance, I live in far northern WI, although we do not have any C-C provisions available to us, but guns are not seen as something evil, they are a common household item, there are several outdoor shooting ranges around us, and hunting is a large part of our economy.
    My last contact with local law enforcement while carrying in my area was very positive. I was out walking the pooches with my OD-Green XDm on my side, whenthe same unmarked county car drove by twice, and stopped on his third pass.
    I knew it was because I was carrying, but my sidearm didn't come into the conversation right off the bat. He stated that my White Shepherd caught his attention, and when the conversation switched to guns, he recognized it was an XDm and just wanted to know how I liked it. That was about it on the gun subject. And this guy was a lieutenant for the dept.
    he never exited his car, he did not draw his firearm and no concern was openly shown by him or me.

    The town nearest us that has it's own police department also has the same general attitude by most, the town supervisor is a retired legislator that co-authored our state's firearm preemption bill.

    yeah, we had a few cops that stated they would prone someone out with their face shovedinto the snow if they ever saw someone O-C >"In their City"<, but those attitudes were quickly changed by the town heads and the police chief when it was brought to their attention.

    The entire state of WI has a real good paper trail laid out already, the RTKBA is enumerated in our state constitution, there was 2 very high-profile cases of harrassment of two different O-C'ers that ended favorably for the individuals, then the States Attorney General sent out a memo statewide that O-C is not a crime, and to quit charging subjects with disorderly conduct for exercising their 2A rights. But less than 3 months later, the Madison WI police arrested an individual for that excact charge for someone who chose toO-C.
    This personscourt case results are still unknown at this point.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Nutczak,

    I'm glad to hear that OC and 2A issues in general are well-accepted in your neck of the woods. But it's not like that everywhere, unfortunately.

    Like I've said, I have personally had nothing but POSITIVE experiences with OC in NC, VA, and PA so far, and don't foresee any issues in the future, but we never know what may happen when we're out in the "real world"...

    But there ARE some parts of NC that are decidedly OC-UN-friendly, and I thought that maybe it's time we start doing preemptive legal maneuvers to persuade some of the more thuggish LEA's that they need to follow the laws of our fine state.

    NC has a RKBA clause in it's State Constitution, and SEVERAL case-law precedents that support (in NO uncertain terms) the right to OC, unmolested. It's just that there seem to be a few municipalities that feel they have the need to harass, detain, and even arrest under color of law, people who dare (gasp!) to exercise their 2A rights, and these few isolated departments seemto be ramping up their harassment to the level of making up charges and filing false reports to support their cases, as the awareness (and practice) of OC gains popularity in our state.

    I have a fascination with the whole legal "game", and with the history of the law in general (I actually was preparing to apply to Law School when I lived in VA, but was talked out of it by several ex-classmates who are now attorneys). I've even had two different traffic court judges tell me (after dismissing my cases) that I missed my true calling, and would make a formidable defense attorney. So apparently I have a knack for the Law--my obsessions with research, language, and history probably help with that.

    The idea that we can use the system against itself to support out civil rights is one of the things I find most delightful about our system of government here in the USA,and I intend to do whatever I can to make life easier for my OC friends here in NC, and all across the country. If my idea catches on, and it prevents even ONE person from being hassled, then I will be overjoyed!

    Things are gaining momentum. The folks on the WA forum are running with this idea, and I've got a few people here in NC that are on-board. We'll see where it all goes!

    I'm planning to polish my announcement text this weekend, and post it sometime early next week. I would like to deliver it at my local City Council meetings at their January sessions.

    I'll keep y'all updated as to the progress, and any feedback I get from local governments and LEA's.

    Things could get mighty interesting next month...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I'm new to this sight as well as the OC & CC thing as well. how ever at 37 I have probably spent more time with my guns than a knife and fork YA I'm a hick from the sticks (south eastern Idaho) who by some poor thought ended up in the city!! open carry was gust the way it was just the same as a gun rack in the back window! no one looked twice but when I moved to the city you talk guns people look at you sideways But to my very happy findings I found all you and I shall once more OC I like your idea of the city meeting I live in a crappy part of town and manage apt. buildings and often do my night walks with my AR the tenants love it my the OCPD not so shure what thy would think at 2am:celebrate

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    OK, my local city council meetings are coming up in the next few weeks, so I thought I'd post my draft of the "OC Advisement" that I want to deliver to the Washington and Greenville City Council Meetings.

    Comments, suggestions, and edits are welcomed and encourages. Please let me know if you think this is too long, too verbose, or getting too close to a rambling rant. I tried to include a lot of actual references to US and NC codes and Court Cases to support my position, and that is why it is sort of long...

    (NOTE: personal data has been replaced with "XXX"s for reasons of personal identity security, but will be replaced with my own info when delivered, obviously...)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My name is XXXXXXXXXX. My date of birth is XXXXXXXXX. I am a XXXXXXXXXX resident, and a natural-born citizen of the United States of America. I currently reside at XXXXXXXXXXX. I have a valid XX drivers license, and I was issued a XX Concealed Handgun Permit in XXXXXXXXX by the Sheriff of XXXXXX County.

    Although I hold a XX CHP, I often carry openly, and therefore wish to inform the City Council and local law enforcement agencies that I will be doing so in the city of XXXXXXXX and in other parts of XXX County, so that it may be a matter of public record.
    Open Carry is legal in XXXXXXXXX, for ALL people who are over the age of 18, and are not otherwise deemed under NC Statute or Federal codes as “prohibited persons”. The right to keep, and to BEAR arms is a protected right under the United States Constitution, The Constitution of the State of XXXXXXXXX, and under XXXXXXXXX Case and Statute Law.

    I also wish to inform the City Council and XXXXXXXXX Police Department that harassment of people engaged in lawful Open Carry will not be tolerated by the citizens of our fair state, and will be met with appropriate legal action. I am sure that the City Council and local Law Enforcement Officers know that it is a federal crime under Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 for anyone acting under “color of law” willfully to deprive or conspire to deprive a person of a right protected by the Constitution or U.S. law.

    Harassment includes stops and searches without Probable Cause, nonconsensual searches of the person, nonconsensual or warrantless searches of a vehicle, seizing of personal property including firearms, and demanding or requiring the producing of identification documents or a Concealed Handgun Permit while open carrying on foot. XXXXXXXXX has no “stop-and-identify statute”, and unless a person is operating a motor vehicle, the producing of identification documents is not required. Also, under NCGC § 14-415.11, informing a Law Enforcement officer of the carrying of a firearm and the requirement to produce ID and a CHP is only required while carrying concealed, and cannot be required if a person is open carrying. But I am sure that you already know that.

    Furthermore, under NC case law, derived from “State v. Robert S. Huntley”, the mere carrying of a firearm in public constitutes no offense. I quote from the Huntley ruling, “It is to be remembered that the carrying of a gun, per se, constitutes no offense. For any lawful purpose-either of business or amusement-the citizen is at perfect liberty to carry his gun.”

    Again, I am taking this opportunity to advise the City Council and local Law Enforcement that I will be Open Carrying in XXXXXXXXX, and I am confident that as a citizen of the United States, and of the state of XX, I will be left to exercise my right to do so whenever and wherever it is legal under XX Statutes, unharassed, unmolested, and without fear of violation of my civil rights.

    If the Chief of Police wishes to perform a background check on me at this time, so that it may also be entered into the public record, I consent to that.

    Thank you for your time.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    OK, my local city council meetings are coming up in the next few weeks, so I thought I'd post my draft of the "OC Advisement" that I want to deliver to the Washington and Greenville City Council Meetings.

    Comments, suggestions, and edits are welcomed and encourages. Please let me know if you think this is too long, too verbose, or getting too close to a rambling rant. I tried to include a lot of actual references to US and NC codes and Court Cases to support my position, and that is why it is sort of long...

    (NOTE: personal data has been replaced with "XXX"s for reasons of personal identity security, but will be replaced with my own info when delivered, obviously...)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My name is XXXXXXXXXX. My date of birth is XXXXXXXXX. I am a XXXXXXXXXX resident, and a natural-born citizen of the United States of America. I currently reside at XXXXXXXXXXX. I have a valid XX drivers license, and I was issued a XX Concealed Handgun Permit in XXXXXXXXX by the Sheriff of XXXXXX County.

    Although I hold a XX CHP, I often carry openly, and therefore wish to inform the City Council and local law enforcement agencies that I will be doing so in the city of XXXXXXXX and in other parts of XXX County, so that it may be a matter of public record.
    Open Carry is legal in XXXXXXXXX, for ALL people who are over the age of 18, and are not otherwise deemed under NC Statute or Federal codes as “prohibited persons”. The right to keep, and to BEAR arms is a protected right under the United States Constitution, The Constitution of the State of XXXXXXXXX, and under XXXXXXXXX Case and Statute Law.

    I also wish to inform the City Council and XXXXXXXXX Police Department that harassment of people engaged in lawful Open Carry will not be tolerated by the citizens of our fair state, and will be met with appropriate legal action. I am sure that the City Council and local Law Enforcement Officers know that it is a federal crime under Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 for anyone acting under “color of law” willfully to deprive or conspire to deprive a person of a right protected by the Constitution or U.S. law.

    Harassment includes stops and searches without Probable Cause, nonconsensual searches of the person, nonconsensual or warrantless searches of a vehicle, seizing of personal property including firearms, and demanding or requiring the producing of identification documents or a Concealed Handgun Permit while open carrying on foot. XXXXXXXXX has no “stop-and-identify statute”, and unless a person is operating a motor vehicle, the producing of identification documents is not required. Also, under NCGC § 14-415.11, informing a Law Enforcement officer of the carrying of a firearm and the requirement to produce ID and a CHP is only required while carrying concealed, and cannot be required if a person is open carrying. But I am sure that you already know that.

    Furthermore, under NC case law, derived from “State v. Robert S. Huntley”, the mere carrying of a firearm in public constitutes no offense. I quote from the Huntley ruling, “It is to be remembered that the carrying of a gun, per se, constitutes no offense. For any lawful purpose-either of business or amusement-the citizen is at perfect liberty to carry his gun.”

    Again, I am taking this opportunity to advise the City Council and local Law Enforcement that I will be Open Carrying in XXXXXXXXX, and I am confident that as a citizen of the United States, and of the state of XX, I will be left to exercise my right to do so whenever and wherever it is legal under XX Statutes, unharassed, unmolested, and without fear of violation of my civil rights.

    If the Chief of Police wishes to perform a background check on me at this time, so that it may also be entered into the public record, I consent to that.

    Thank you for your time.
    WOW's, props, and standing ovations are heard by all.

    Very well done, Dreamer! Let us know how it turns out. This is most interesting.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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  19. #19
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    Dreamer wrote:
    OK, my local city council meetings are coming up in the next few weeks, so I thought I'd post my draft of the "OC Advisement" that I want to deliver to the Washington and Greenville City Council Meetings.

    Comments, suggestions, and edits are welcomed and encourages. Please let me know if you think this is too long, too verbose, or getting too close to a rambling rant. I tried to include a lot of actual references to US and NC codes and Court Cases to support my position, and that is why it is sort of long...

    (NOTE: personal data has been replaced with "XXX"s for reasons of personal identity security, but will be replaced with my own info when delivered, obviously...)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My name is XXXXXXXXXX. My date of birth is XXXXXXXXX. I am a XXXXXXXXXX resident, and a natural-born citizen of the United States of America. I currently reside at XXXXXXXXXXX. I have a valid XX drivers license, and I was issued a XX Concealed Handgun Permit in XXXXXXXXX by the Sheriff of XXXXXX County.

    Although I hold a XX CHP, I often carry openly, and therefore wish to inform the City Council and local law enforcement agencies that I will be doing so in the city of XXXXXXXX and in other parts of XXX County, so that it may be a matter of public record.
    Open Carry is legal in XXXXXXXXX, for ALL people who are over the age of 18, and are not otherwise deemed under NC Statute or Federal codes as “prohibited persons”. The right to keep, and to BEAR arms is a protected right under the United States Constitution, The Constitution of the State of XXXXXXXXX, and under XXXXXXXXX Case and Statute Law.

    I also wish to inform the City Council and XXXXXXXXX Police Department that harassment of people engaged in lawful Open Carry will not be tolerated by the citizens of our fair state, and will be met with appropriate legal action. I am sure that the City Council and local Law Enforcement Officers know that it is a federal crime under Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 for anyone acting under “color of law” willfully to deprive or conspire to deprive a person of a right protected by the Constitution or U.S. law.

    Harassment includes stops and searches without Probable Cause, nonconsensual searches of the person, nonconsensual or warrantless searches of a vehicle, seizing of personal property including firearms, and demanding or requiring the producing of identification documents or a Concealed Handgun Permit while open carrying on foot. XXXXXXXXX has no “stop-and-identify statute”, and unless a person is operating a motor vehicle, the producing of identification documents is not required. Also, under NCGC § 14-415.11, informing a Law Enforcement officer of the carrying of a firearm and the requirement to produce ID and a CHP is only required while carrying concealed, and cannot be required if a person is open carrying. But I am sure that you already know that.

    Furthermore, under NC case law, derived from “State v. Robert S. Huntley”, the mere carrying of a firearm in public constitutes no offense. I quote from the Huntley ruling, “It is to be remembered that the carrying of a gun, per se, constitutes no offense. For any lawful purpose-either of business or amusement-the citizen is at perfect liberty to carry his gun.”

    Again, I am taking this opportunity to advise the City Council and local Law Enforcement that I will be Open Carrying in XXXXXXXXX, and I am confident that as a citizen of the United States, and of the state of XX, I will be left to exercise my right to do so whenever and wherever it is legal under XX Statutes, unharassed, unmolested, and without fear of violation of my civil rights.

    If the Chief of Police wishes to perform a background check on me at this time, so that it may also be entered into the public record, I consent to that.

    Thank you for your time.
    That's pretty impressive.

    What's up, though, with the permission/consent to a background check?

    And do we have to give the date of birth?

    I do understand having to give a home address at council meetings.

    Do you think the comment "But I am sure that you already know that;" is a bit smug?

    I also believe that in urban areas, even County Commissioner meetings could benefit from this as well, what do you think? The less urbanized counties I am sure are already used to people openly carrying firearms.

  20. #20
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    tekshogun wrote:
    That's pretty impressive.

    What's up, though, with the permission/consent to a background check?

    And do we have to give the date of birth?

    I do understand having to give a home address at council meetings.

    Do you think the comment "But I am sure that you already know that;" is a bit smug?

    I also believe that in urban areas, even County Commissioner meetings could benefit from this as well, what do you think? The less urbanized counties I am sure are already used to people openly carrying firearms.
    OK, I knew I would get asked about this so here is my justification on the above issues:

    I give the permission to do a background check for 2 reasons: 1-it puts it on the public record that I gave them the opportunity to do it, and proves I have nothing to hide, and 2-if they want to be pissy about it, THEY will have to pay the fees for the check, because it's not being done at my request, or for any sort of permit or license.

    I give DOB and address to establish that I'm a legal NC resident, and a regular, middle-aged guy. It's that simple.

    You are right, Tek, that comment might be contrued as a little smug. Maybe I'll take that out...

    The way I see it, I'm making this announcement to show the local LEAs that I'm willing to "play the game" by their rules, and capable of using their "rules" to enter the "field of play" knowing that I've already won any "battle" they may think they can start.

    I'm just letting them know that I know the rules, and now that I've told them, THEY know the rules, and because this notification is being done as a matter of pubic record, there will be NO excuses for them to misbehave, abuse my rights, or attempt to act under "color of law" in the matter of OC.

    And in case anyone decided to start a big discussion about potential GAttToTP charges, I've got a folder full of NC case law and Federal case law to shut that down REAL fast as well, that I will be MORe than happy to enter into the record as well.

    The fact is that the NC GAttTotP charge is COMPLETELY invalid, because it stems from a British Common Law first codified by Edward III in the 1300's. On 1 Jan. 1838, the NC General Assembly's Revised Statutes officially declared that ALL British laws were thereafter invalid in the Commonwealth of NC, thereby striking this common law offense (and many others as well!) from the rolls of NC legal precedence. For some strange reason, however, the NC DOJ seems to think it can still bring US citizens up on a charge that was part of the British Common Law rolls. It boggles the mind...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    We do have case law after 1830 that establishes the charge, so I don't think one will get very far arguing that the common law is not valid in North Carolina. State v. Robert S. Huntley establishes the case law:

    The argument is, that the offence of riding or going about armed with unusual and dangerous weapons, to the terror of the people, was created by the statute of Northampton, 2 Edward III, ch. 3, and that, whether this statute was or was not formerly in force in this State, it certainly has not been since the first of January, 1838, at which day it is declared in the Revised Statutes, ch. 1, sec. 2, that the statutes of England or Great Britain shall cease to be of force and effect here.We have been accustomed to believe, that the statute referred to did not create this offence, but provided only special penalties and modes of proceeding for its more effectual suppression, and of the correctness of this belief we can see no reason to doubt. All the elementary writers, who give us any information on the subject, concur in this representation, nor is there to be found in them, as far as we are aware of, a dictum or intimation to the contrary.
    Indeed, if those acts be deemed by the common law crimes and misdemeanors, which are in violation of the public rights and of the duties owing to the community in its social capacity, it is difficult to imagine any which more unequivocally deserve to be so considered than the acts charged upon this defendant. They attack directly that public order and sense of security, which it is one of the first objects of the common (p.422)law, and ought to be of the law of all regulated societies to preserve inviolate--and they lead almost necessarily to actual violence. Nor can it for a moment be supposed that such acts are less mischievous here or less the proper subjects of legal reprehension, than they were in the country of our ancestors.
    I would personally leave out the case law all together. I say just inform them of your intent and the legality of it and leave it at that. You aren't required to prove that you are correct, they are required to prove you wrong.

  22. #22
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    CarryOpen,

    I understand your position, but I think it's time that we, as 2A activists, stop being on the "defensive" with our government, and start approaching this situation in a more proactive way.

    Why sit around, waiting to become a "test case"? Sure, we know we're right, but a lot of citizens and LEO's either don't know or don't care about the law. The way I see it, using the Public Forum to enter this "Educational Material" into the public record serves multiple purposes:

    1) it lets local government and LEA's know that we KNOW our rights and the law, and we are NOT willing to let them infringe upon our rights, and are willing and prepared to use the "force of law" to back up our position,

    2) Other citizens, who attend such meetings or read the minutes of these meetings will see the TRUTH of the law, and that only helps us out,

    3) it puts local governments and LEA's in a situation where any sort of harassment of lawful OC is legally INEXCUSABLE because they have, in their own records, proof of who I am, what I'm lawfully intending to do, and the case law, and State and Federal Statutes that protect this activity against harassment. In other words, they have been put "on notice", and WILL be held accountable if they breech my rights, or ignore their oaths to "uphold the law"...

    *****-footing around the issue isn't going to accomplish anything except to draw attention to an activity that some LEO's would LOVE to have the chance to harass someone about. By giving them a mountain of information that supports our position, they are put in a position that makes any sort of "color of law" harassment completely inexcusable, and undeniably actionable on the Federal level...

    We need to stop thinking that our government and LEA's are genuinely interested in preserving our freedoms, and start meeting them on their own turf, with reams and reams of paperwork. The only thing bureaucracies understand is "the bottom line", and once they realise that unlawful harassment of OC will negatively impact their coffers through Federal Civil Rights suits, things might begin to change.

    Look at every other "civil rights" movement of the last 100 years in the USA. The suffrage movement, civil rights for minorities, etc., all started to REALLY get traction when the government realised that continued denial of rights to these groups would put them in the position where they had to pay out settlements and damages. Money talks with these people, and the LAST thing they want it to hear the sound of "their" money saying "bye bye" as it gets handed over to someone in a situation these officials could have avoided by simply following their own laws.

    We need to SERIOUSLY reconsider how we are engaging the system. The anti's are EXPERT at this--they know how to manipulate the law and "interpretations" of the law to achieve their goals. We need to start approaching 2A rights in a similar manner. If we understand the Law, and our system of government, it's not difficult to use it to our advantage. It just takes a little research, some charismatic persuasion, and the irrefutable documentation as provided by our State and Federal Statutes and Case Law.

    I simply want to move our position off the defensive, and put the government and LEA's on the defensive. They are public SERVANTS, and we need to remind them of that fact occasionally. We need to let them know that there are specific laws that govern their actions as well as ours, and that we, as law-abiding, vigilant citizens WILL hold them accountable for their actions, and WILL hold them to proper and lawful standards of conduct.

    If they want to try and make excuses for their continued unlawful actions and attitudes, then let THAT be a matter of public record as well. I welcome any public official to state on the public record that they fully INTEND to violate my rights for a lawful action on my part. That's just one more staple in a potential Federal Civil Rights case against them, if it ever comes to that...

    I'm just taking a more proactive stance. I am a strong believer in preemptive preparation. If we set up the situation to where we NEVER have to actually engage the "opponent" in the first place, we've already won, and decisively.

    I don't want to be a "test case". But if some local government wants to volunteer to be a "test case" by violating my rights AFTER they've been put on notice, I'll be more than happy to testify against them for the Federal Prosecutors when the Civil Rights trial comes up--on their dime, of course...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  23. #23
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    CarryOpen,

    Actually the Huntley ruling established that Open Carry is COMPLETELY LAWFUL. It did NOT support the GAttTotP common law violation. To quote "Huntley" in support of GAttTotP is like quoting "Heller" in support of a handgun ban...

    You left out the most important part of the Huntley ruling which is it's "conclusion":
    But although a gun is an "unusual weapon," it is to be remembered that the carrying of a gun, per se, constitutes no offence. For any lawful purpose--either of business or amusement--the citizen is at perfect liberty to carry his gun.
    The parts you referenced were actually from the prosecutors argument. Huntley won this case, not the State. Therefore, the argument of the Prosecution, although based in centuries of "common law" was ruled to NOT be applicable in instances of lawful Open Carry. The whole idea of "terrifying the public", under the Huntley ruling, is predicated on the intent of criminal activity or purposeful intimidation. The ruling clearly states that lawful carry, in and of itself, DOES NOT constitute an offense against case law, statutory law, or even "civil peace"...

    If you're going to "cherry pick", you should pick from the branch that won the case...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer, i would have to say if there were more politicians and LEO'slike you on the job, the world would be a much better place for us OCer's. I admire your wisdom and levelheadness, and i hope to gain that level of knowledge in my coming years. It's always a joy to read your posts brother. OORAH! and i need to find more OCer's in jacksonville to accompany me to the meetingand show a strong presence.

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    I'm not trying to say that Huntley takes anything away from OC, but it fully supports the charge when one goes about terrorizing. The decision comes after the 1838 declaration. You're going to have a hard time showing that the 1838 declaration nullifies the charge when there has been case precedent after the fact.

    It is the wicked purpose, and the mischievous result, which essentially constitute the crime. He shall not carry about this or any other weapon of death to terrify and alarm, and in such manner as naturally will terrify and alarm a peaceful people.

    Huntley is not saying that GAttTotP is not valid, it merely sets the precedent for when it is.

    I'm not pussyfooting around either, I just don't see that statement being any more helpful to you than simply stating "I intend to lawfully carry openly in this town and county". That is indeed standing up for yourself, everything else is just superfluous in my opinion. I don't know if I could even keep people listening after the first paragraph, but you may be a better public speaker than I am.

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