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Thread: Charged With Going Armed to the Terror of the People and carrying a concealed weapon

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    As some of you may know, I was detained, arrested, and then charged with Going Armed to the Terror of the People and carrying a concealed weapon on August 15 2009.

    The incident began in Navy Federal. I was open carrying a Glock 26 on a serpa paddle holster. I also happened to have a semi-automatic rifle in the trunk at the time. It was a Saturday and they were closing but I simply wished to pick up the paper work for a used car loan. The door was locked but a teller was letting someone out so I asked if I could pick up the paper work. She took my ID from me to look up to see if they in fact had the paper work I was inquiring about. After verifying they did have it. They said that they wanted to go over it with me. I agreed and was let into the facility, however at this point they noticed that I was armed. They were operating under the assumption that this was in fact illegal. They wanted me to exit the facility and re enter disarmed. I asked if I could speak with the manager. They eventually gave me back my ID and I left without getting the paper work since they wouldn't hand it over without looking over it with me.

    I was in the parking lot and called the Navy Federal Phone number to complain. They got me in touch with the manager who said I was wrong and that it is against Navy Federal Policy and they were now closed and I would have to come back Monday to pick up the loan paper work. I told her that I was no longer interested in doing business with them in the future.

    I then was across the street at Marine Federal trying to call them, but their website's phone numbers are not accurate. At this point I was quite frustrated at my attempts to deal with financial institutions. I was about to head home when two police cars pulled behind me. They put their lights on and honked at me. so I pulled over into a nearby parking lot.

    At this point I was surrounded by at least 4 or 5 different units with guns drawn on me.
    They ordered me out of my vehicle at gun point and proceeded to handcuff me and search my vehicle. I refused to say anything at the scene while handcuffed other than that I was complying but not consenting to a detainment and would be invoking my right to silence. They informed me that my consent was unimportant. After they unloaded my Glock 26 and its magazine. they opened my trunk where they found my WZ-88 tantal rifle. Both firearms were seized at this point.

    At the Jacksonville Station they were finding it most difficult to find charges to put on me. After what seemed like at least 45 minutes of processing which mostly involved me sitting there, they were content with charging me with Going Armed to the Terror of the People and for the unlawful concealed weapon because of the rifle in my trunk.

    Finally after one continuance my trial came on December 14 2009. The Navy Federal Clerks were brought in by my defense as was the arresting officer. The District Attorney apparently knew that the charges were worthless and would be dismissed so the JPD attempted to intimidate me into accepting a plea for the concealed weapon charge. They then wanted me to accept community service and deferred prosecution. They threatened that they would re-arrest me on different charges and try to get a federal case out of it.

    Basically the deal at the end was, do 48 hours community service and listen to the arresting officers opinion on gun rights, after which I will get my seized property returned to me. Or, if I defied their will, they would arrest me for a violation of concealed carry permit terms(carrying in the financial institution, even though my permit is not recognized by North Carolina) and a window tinting violation.

    I chose not to accept their deal. At which point the charges were dropped by the DA but my property has yet to be returned to me.

    I don't know when the JPD will strike again, but they apparently have me on their list.

    It would seem that the Police are quite upset that I walked into a bank with a gun and that I own a Crown Victoria Police Interceptor. I don't know if they are against open carry in general or if they are just against me in particular but I feel like they won't just let this go, so I think Pro Second Amendment people in the Local Area need to stand in solidarity against the Jacksonville Police Department trying to make up laws as they please and harass and intimidate supporters of Open Carry.

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    I'm glad the charges against you were dropped. If you can, I would have a lawyer send a letter to the Jacksonville Police Department demanding the return of your property. Get a court order if you have to. Unless they are charging you with anything, they are retaining your property for unnecessary reasons and for an unnecessary amount of time. Go to the police department and speak with someone about getting your property back.

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    Have you talked to your lawyer about civil action????

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    As to the best of my knowledge they are able to keep the weapons as evidence, because they are still keeping the case open to push other charges. (I'm shocked this is legal.)

    Also if any one knows a pro liberty lawyer who would want to sue the Jacksonville Police Department, I'm all for it.

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    ComradeV wrote:
    I chose not to accept their deal. At which point the charges were dropped by the DA but my property has yet to be returned to me.
    OK, so have you contacted a civil rights attorney to ask about bringinga civil action in federal court for violation of your due process rights? Have you benn given notice and an opportunity to be heard by the agency regarding this deprivatuion of rights? if not, there's potentially an avenue of attack for you.

    A lot of people think they have to sue to get the gun back.

    Not necessarily - let them keep it for a while & read your Complaint and Motion for Summary Judgement.

    You can sue to make them provide you due process, and may be able to recoup atty fees and costs in te process ubnder Section 1983.

    The indirect approach is sometimes better than the up the middle approach.

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    How do I find a civil rights lawyer?

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    ComradeV wrote:
    How do I find a civil rights lawyer?
    Try your state bar - they may have an atty referral service.

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot Mike!

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    Out of curiosity, do you feel you were completely in the right here? You might be able to cite a law, lack of a law, or a technicality to justify everything you were doing that day, I'm not a lawyer. But look at it from an outside perspective: You were trying to get into a bank after hours with a gun. After you were told by the bank staff they would not allow you inside while armed, you stayed in the vicinity and pressed the issue with what they probably felt were less than pleasant phone calls. Keep in mind, they are closing and want to go home, but there is "a guy with a gun in the parking lot" causing a stink. Then they see you drive across the street to another bank. Police are called and find you also have a rifle in the trunk. Not just a hunting rifle, but what the average American would describe as an "assault rifle". During questioning you start talking about rights and non-consent yada yada. After all this, did you think they would just give you back your guns and say have a nice day?

    I'm not trying to bust your chops, I really hope that your issue is completely resolved with nothing on your record and you get your guns back. I just want to bring these points up so some suggestible person curious about OC doesn't read this and think this whole situation was normal and above reproach.

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    ComradeV wrote:
    How do I find a civil rights lawyer?
    I would try the ACLU. Even if they don't help you, they may be happy to refer you. And before anyone blasts me or the ACLU, they have a history of helping gun rights but also a history of playing middle of the road (in some cases stating that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right).

    My point is, they can either tell you "No we will not help you or; Yes we will help you."

    http://www.acluofnorthcarolina.org/

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    Dragon88 wrote:
    Out of curiosity, do you feel you were completely in the right here? You might be able to cite a law, lack of a law, or a technicality to justify everything you were doing that day, I'm not a lawyer. But look at it from an outside perspective: You were trying to get into a bank after hours with a gun. After you were told by the bank staff they would not allow you inside while armed, you stayed in the vicinity and pressed the issue with what they probably felt were less than pleasant phone calls. Keep in mind, they are closing and want to go home, but there is "a guy with a gun in the parking lot" causing a stink. Then they see you drive across the street to another bank. Police are called and find you also have a rifle in the trunk. Not just a hunting rifle, but what the average American would describe as an "assault rifle". During questioning you start talking about rights and non-consent yada yada. After all this, did you think they would just give you back your guns and say have a nice day?

    I'm not trying to bust your chops, I really hope that your issue is completely resolved with nothing on your record and you get your guns back. I just want to bring these points up so some suggestible person curious about OC doesn't read this and think this whole situation was normal and above reproach.
    I have to respectfully disagree with you on certain points.

    For one, they allowed me access upon recognizing that I was indeed a bonafide member of the credit union. And then they pressed the issue of having to keep me in their facility longer than I wanted to by insisting that someone looked over the paperwork with me before they would hand over the papers, despite knowing they were indeed for me. Thus when they handed me back my ID they refused me my paperwork, which gave me the incentive to call the customer service line, as at the time I was still hoping to do business with them.

    As for the police issue. There was no questioning. They merely handcuffed me and stated it was illegal to have a firearm in a bank. They're only inquiry was "You know it is illegal to have a firearm in a bank, right?" instead of dignifying such a loaded question I politely declined to continue this line of inquiry which was clearly intended to work a case against me.

    And Further more, we must be on some disagreement on the utility of assault rifles, as I find them perfectly comfortable weapons to keep and bear as far as arms go.

    Certainly, as retrospectively inquiry goes, I would've much rather not been arrested and had so many a undue hardship, for what was a wrongful arrest, brought to me and my family. While I can be held responsible for my actions, I cannot always predict the reactions of others.


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    ComradeV wrote:
    They merely handcuffed me and stated it was illegal to have a firearm in a bank. They're only inquiry was "You know it is illegal to have a firearm in a bank, right?"
    Um, but in North Carolina it is illegal to have a CONCEALED handgun in a bank, right?

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    It is beyond a doubt illegal for a NC CCW holder to conceal a hand gun in a financial institution.

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    ComradeV wrote:
    It is beyond a doubt illegal for a NC CCW holder to conceal a hand gun in a financial institution.
    Yes, but it is only a CONCEALED handgun that is illegal. There is no law that makes it illegal to be inpossession of a firearm in a financial institution. So in a nut shell, you HAVE to open carry in the bank.

    I've been over this with local PDs and a few banks. I'm a member of Navy Fed as well. Some employees have had no issue, but I had one manager give me crap for it. I then had a long phone conversation with NavyFCU's "Head of Security" where he told me he didn't care if it was legal, their policy said no. So I asked for the policy in writing, but never got it. He was full of crap.

    On the other hand, an armed man driving a wanna-be cop car was "harassing" bank employees after hours. You gotta remember, your knowledge, personality, and intent mean nothing to others. Perception is everything.

    All in all that's a crappy situation. I hope it works out best for you.

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    Yep...only says concealed.

    § 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
    (a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law. The person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer. In addition to these requirements, a military permittee whose permit has expired during deployment may carry a concealed handgun during the 90 days following the end of deployment and before the permit is renewed provided the permittee also displays proof of deployment to any law enforcement officer.
    (b) The sheriff shall issue a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S. 14‑415.12. The permit shall be valid throughout the State for a period of five years from the date of issuance.
    (c) A permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun in the areas prohibited by G.S. 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, and 14‑277.2, in an area prohibited by rule adopted under G.S. 120‑32.1, in any area prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 922 or any other federal law, in a law enforcement or correctional facility, in a building housing only State or federal offices, in an office of the State or federal government that is not located in a building exclusively occupied by the State or federal government, a financial institution, or on any other premises, except state‑owned rest areas or state‑owned rest stops along the highways, where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises. It shall be unlawful for a person, with or without a permit, to carry a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol or at any time while the person has remaining in his body any alcohol or in his blood a controlled substance previously consumed, but a person does not violate this condition if a controlled substance in his blood was lawfully obtained and taken in therapeutically appropriate amounts.
    (d) A person who is issued a permit shall notify the sheriff who issued the permit of any change in the person's permanent address within 30 days after the change of address. If a permit is lost or destroyed, the person to whom the permit was issued shall notify the sheriff who issued the permit of the loss or destruction of the permit. A person may obtain a duplicate permit by submitting to the sheriff a notarized statement that the permit was lost or destroyed and paying the required duplicate permit fee. (1995, c. 398, s. 1; c. 507, s. 22.1(c); c. 509, s. 135.3(e); 1997, c. 238, s. 6; 2000‑140, s. 103; 2000‑191, s. 5; 2005‑232, s. 3.)
    States dont have rights. People do.

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    ComradeV wrote:
    It is beyond a doubt illegal for a NC CCW holder to conceal a hand gun in a financial institution.
    OK, I see you were open carrying now from re-reading your post.

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    Actually, long guns ARE covered under NC concealed carry laws...

    However, having a rifle locked in your trunk is NOT considered per se, a violation of the concealed carry law in NC. In fact, transporting a rifle in your trunk is specifically enumerated as being one of the ACCEPTABLE ways to transport a long gun in NC.

    Excerpt from "North Carolina Firearms Laws", the PDF downloaded from the NC AG website:
    "While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback, of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual's purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer's and the vehicle's occupants' safety. Another obvious drawback is that a valuable weapon may be in plain view for potential thieves to see. The prohibition to carrying concealed weapons applies not only to handguns and other weapons commonly thought of as being easily hidden, but also to "long guns" as well. Therefore, shotguns and rifles concealed behind the seat of pickup trucks, and elsewhere in other vehicles, could similarly violate North Carolina law. As to those vehicles with no easily discernible trunk area (i.e., vans, etc.), the question arises on a factual determination of when the weapon is within ready and easy access to an occupant of the vehicle. If the weapon is concealed near, in close proximity to, or within the convenient control and access of an occupant, which would allow him/her to use the weapon quickly, then a fair probability exists that the occupant is in violation of the law.

    Therefore, care must be exercised by any occupant of any vehicle to ensure that weapons are securely locked away in as remote an area as possible, in relation to the passenger compartment of the vehicle. It is important to emphasize that these prohibitions apply to passengers, as well as drivers of any vehicle."
    Locked in your trunk is perhaps the safest, most legal way to transport ANY firearm under NC law. The LEO's in this situation were COMPLETELY wrong about the status of this rifle, and should be, at the very least, re-educated as to NC statutes, or perhaps sanctioned under Federal Civil Rights law, for having wrongfully arrested the OP under color of law.

    The OP never said whether it was loaded or not, but under NC law it doesn't matter. There are no laws in NC that specifically prohibit transporting a loaded firearm, whether concealed or openly carried. So whether this rifle was loaded or not is immaterial to the case.

    He also didn't say whether or not this particular bank had "no guns" signs posted on their doors on at the entrance to their parking lot. That would make a big difference to the case as well.

    Under NC law, OC in a bank is legal, unless the bank is posted. And I have been told by the legal council of the NC AG office that even if a bank IS posted, CC and OC are legal in the drive-through if you remain inside your vehicle.

    I think this whole incident REALLY gets down to the time of day. Had the OP just driven away when they told him at the drive-through he had to come in, but it was closing time, and had he just come back the next day, during NORMAL business hours, this would have most likely been a non-event.

    But the fact that he hung around, insisted on dealing with his business RIGHT NOW, and then went across the street and was messing around at another bank, puts him is a rather dodgy position. Well-intentioned or not, it's ALL about perception. And he was perceived as being a trouble-maker.

    I hope this gets sorted out, and the OP gets his firearms returned. He was charged with bogus charges, and to be honest, he shoudl get a lawyer and file a federal civil rights suit against the arresting LEA, because they clearly violated his rights under color of law.

    But I also hope this incident teaches the OP some patience, better time-management skills, and he learns to use a much sweeter disposition with the public while OCing.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Heh, that brings up a point of people with no discernable trunk, such as me. I drive an HHR, and I don't have a concealed carry permit yet so carrying ANY long gun in my car no matter where it means taking a chance. Of course, i try to put it in the rear hatch area, unloaded. If I know someone is going to be riding in the back seat, that means it is accessible to them, so in that case, I would again make sure the long gun is unloaded and then use a gun lock. I also try to use a case or bag of some type as well.

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    Tek,

    I also drive an HHR...

    When I transport my long guns, I always make sure they are unloaded, put a cable lock through the action (if possible) and keep them in a padlocked hard-shell case. In the case of my shotgun, I usually take the barrel off too, rendering it "disassembled"... I have an inexpensive Plano hardshell case ($25 at a local store), and it fits PERFECTLY across the back of my cargo area, behind the rear seat, riding on top of the floor panel if I put it in the "raised shelf" position. I usually cover it with a blanket too, so it's not obvious to passers-by that it's a gun case.

    But then again, I have a NC CHP, so that makes things a LOT easier...

    I also have one of those small "GunVault" safes with a cable-lock attached, and I keep it in the cargo area, cabled to one ob my tie-downs with a padlock. That way, when I am going into a place that won't let me carry (government building, restaurant, Maryland) I can lock it up securely, and be within the law just about ANYWHERE with regards to transport.

    If you have an SUV, Van, or other vehicle that doesn't have a separate, lockable trunk, and you do a lot of interstate travel, getting a small, lockable mini-safe with a cable lock is just good sense. I got mine at Big Lots for a SERIOUS discount about 2 years ago.

    Locked containers are good. Locked containers with cable locks that you can attach to your cargo tie-downs are even better. But getting your CHP just makes life a whole lot simpler--ESPECIALLY if you do a lot of interstate travel. The NC CHP is recognized in over 30 states, and with the exceptions of MD, DC, NJ and NY, (and who REALLY wants to go to any of those places anyway?) it pretty much covers the whole East Coast...

    If you are a gun owner, and intend to carry, and ESPECIALLY if you do a lot of interstate travel, there is simply NO logical excuse to NOT have a CHP...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    ComradeV wrote
    I have to respectfully disagree with you on certain points.

    For one, they allowed me access upon recognizing that I was indeed a bonafide member of the credit union. And then they pressed the issue of having to keep me in their facility longer than I wanted to by insisting that someone looked over the paperwork with me before they would hand over the papers, despite knowing they were indeed for me. Thus when they handed me back my ID they refused me my paperwork, which gave me the incentive to call the customer service line, as at the time I was still hoping to do business with them.

    As for the police issue. There was no questioning. They merely handcuffed me and stated it was illegal to have a firearm in a bank. They're only inquiry was "You know it is illegal to have a firearm in a bank, right?" instead of dignifying such a loaded question I politely declined to continue this line of inquiry which was clearly intended to work a case against me.

    And Further more, we must be on some disagreement on the utility of assault rifles, as I find them perfectly comfortable weapons to keep and bear as far as arms go.

    Certainly, as retrospectively inquiry goes, I would've much rather not been arrested and had so many a undue hardship, for what was a wrongful arrest, brought to me and my family. While I can be held responsible for my actions, I cannot always predict the reactions of others.
    I'm sure you've mulled over the details of this every day since it happened. I was not there and I'm not in a position to judge anyone, though I appreciate you putting your story out there so we know what might happen when we OC/CC, which I do daily. I hope this is all resolved quickly and positively for you.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Tek,

    I also drive an HHR...

    When I transport my long guns, I always make sure they are unloaded, put a cable lock through the action (if possible) and keep them in a padlocked hard-shell case. In the case of my shotgun, I usually take the barrel off too, rendering it "disassembled"... I have an inexpensive Plano hardshell case ($25 at a local store), and it fits PERFECTLY across the back of my cargo area, behind the rear seat, riding on top of the floor panel if I put it in the "raised shelf" position. I usually cover it with a blanket too, so it's not obvious to passers-by that it's a gun case.

    But then again, I have a NC CHP, so that makes things a LOT easier...

    I also have one of those small "GunVault" safes with a cable-lock attached, and I keep it in the cargo area, cabled to one ob my tie-downs with a padlock. That way, when I am going into a place that won't let me carry (government building, restaurant, Maryland) I can lock it up securely, and be within the law just about ANYWHERE with regards to transport.

    If you have an SUV, Van, or other vehicle that doesn't have a separate, lockable trunk, and you do a lot of interstate travel, getting a small, lockable mini-safe with a cable lock is just good sense. I got mine at Big Lots for a SERIOUS discount about 2 years ago.

    Locked containers are good. Locked containers with cable locks that you can attach to your cargo tie-downs are even better. But getting your CHP just makes life a whole lot simpler--ESPECIALLY if you do a lot of interstate travel. The NC CHP is recognized in over 30 states, and with the exceptions of MD, DC, NJ and NY, (and who REALLY wants to go to any of those places anyway?) it pretty much covers the whole East Coast...

    If you are a gun owner, and intend to carry, and ESPECIALLY if you do a lot of interstate travel, there is simply NO logical excuse to NOT have a CHP...
    Good info indeed. Thanks. I usually keep my shelf in the floor position because I keep communications equipment back there and I don't want anything striking my radios, but if I get a proper hard case, that may not be an issue. I can figure something out. Thanks again.

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    One point to clarify that was brought up.

    The Navy Federal hadn't posted signs the entire time since I was arrested in August into December. It seems that the JPD and Navy Federal believe that you are not allowed to carry at a financial institution at all.


    I actually find the topic of the lock box very informative and am glad someone brought it up, as the JPD thought they were going to get away with calling my rifle a concealed weapon.

    at this point in time the JPD has shown itself as hostile to me and I don't recommend anyone consider collaborating or cooperating with them in the future.


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    Is Jacksonville City Hall a "no firearms zone"?

    I'm thinking that perhaps we need to get some OCers to attend some upcoming City Council meetings, and let the city officials down there know that WE know the law, and we will NOT tolerate harassment under color of law. It seems that Jacksonville is sort of a "hot spot" for OC harassment in NC, and perhaps if we could get together a group of a dozen or so folks to have a regularly-schedules dinner-meetup, or make monthly treks to the City Council meetings to voice our concerns, it might persuade them to think twice in the future about harassing OCers and filing all these bogus charges to intimidate us...

    I'd be up for the drive...

    Next J-ville City Council meetings are on the 5th and the 19th of January at 7:00 PM in the Council Chambers of Jacksonville City Hall, 815 New Bridge Street.

    If J-ville City Hall is a "no carry zone", then I think this might be a good opportunity for an "empty holster" contingent to show up and offer some commentary for the record...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Is Jacksonville City Hall a "no firearms zone"?

    I'm thinking that perhaps we need to get some OCers to attend some upcoming City Council meetings, and let the city officials down there know that WE know the law, and we will NOT tolerate harassment under color of law. It seems that Jacksonville is sort of a "hot spot" for OC harassment in NC, and perhaps if we could get together a group of a dozen or so folks to have a regularly-schedules dinner-meetup, or make monthly treks to the City Council meetings to voice our concerns, it might persuade them to think twice in the future about harassing OCers and filing all these bogus charges to intimidate us...

    I'd be up for the drive...

    Next J-ville City Council meetings are on the 5th and the 19th of January at 7:00 PM in the Council Chambers of Jacksonville City Hall, 815 New Bridge Street.

    If J-ville City Hall is a "no carry zone", then I think this might be a good opportunity for an "empty holster" contingent to show up and offer some commentary for the record...
    I'm 100% for this sort of engagement with this local government.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Sep 2009
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    See the thread I've already started about this "operation" in other cities and states...

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum6/35237.html

    Check back, this idea is gaining momentum...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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