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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Just wondering if anybody here is part of the EHB due to age limitations, and what are your thoughts on it and WHAT can we do? Even if you are now currently legally carrying, were you part of the EHB before and how did you feel?


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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Although I'm WELL over the legal age to legally OC, I often go "empty holster" when I'm carrying and have to go inside somewhere that doesn't allow me to carry, like government buildings or banks. Rather than take of my holster AND gun, I just secure the gun in my vehicle, and wear an empty holster, to let them know were I stand on my 2A rights. (plus it's a pain to take the holster on and off...)

    The holster I most often use is a Serpa CQC in "coyote tan" for a full-size 1911 with a matching magazine carrier, so there's NO mistake as to what that thing hanging on my belt, empty, is...
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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Do you also take other classes for self defense, for times when you are without your sidearm? I am thinking about joining the EHB, but I don't even have a handgun, mostly because I think it would be useless since I can't carry it around legally. I guess I could just pick up any holster I want then.


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    Spyder Tattoo was part of the "empty Holster" bunch at the WAC show, and I had to loan him a holster so he could do that.

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    Do you also take other classes for self defense
    Yes

    for times when you are without your sidearm
    Well, it's not just for then, but also:
    • To have a greater spectrum of responses available, rather than just lethal force
    • To train in weapons retention and disarming an armed assailant
    • To be prepared in the event of a situational-awareness failure, an incident that unavoidably starts hands-on (even though you did have ok awareness), a firearm malfunction, etc...
    The fellow I train with is an associate of Kelly Worden's and has been an instructor along with Worden at Ft Lewis for the Special Forces and Stryker Brigades at various times; he also does private training in the Tacoma area.



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    When I was 18 and 19 Idetested it and feltnaked without some form of self defensebut felt like I had no means to get it changed so I focused on other things. I was also unaware of open carry; I thought the options were get a CPL and concealor don't carry. When I was 20, it had mostly left my mind because if I thought about it too much I worried about the"what ifs."

    All is well now that I'm 21.

    ******
    My girlfriend, however, is not 21 and she hates, hates, hates that she cannot legally carry. At times she can because of the law allowing a hunting tag or fishing license to act like a CPL but besides that it's basically hope for the best. Her dad doesn't like it at all, either. He has pulled me aside before and sincerely thanked me for "packing heat" all the time and has commended me for it in front of others as well.
    That is some serious encouragement right there. You can bet I'll never show up with his daughter on my arm and my gun not on my hip after that!

    Anyways, yes; she is part of the empty holster brigade and actually wears an empty holster on certain occasions, such as the recent OC meet in Bellingham. I would say both she and I feel that there is little we can do about it except take advantage of the exceptions within the law and employ other means of defense. Short of concealing illegally (which as far as I know has not garnered a prosecution when usedto save a life)what can be done? She conceals a large folder 90% of the time and her purse contains OC spray. She wants an ASP baton but who knows if she'll get one because it's yet another thing she would need training to make the most of.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    kito109654

    I am glad to hear you take care of your GF. I always worry about mine, which is why I don't leave until she walks through her door, and the most I can carry is an ASP, which I gladly OC due to knowing it isn't illegal. I been sort of wondering recently. My life is very important then me, even after I been screwed up by a car accident, I been thinking about carrying anyways, just because according to RCW 9.41.050, it would be a misdemeanor. My life is more important than a misdemeanor. I always wonder why would you have to be 21 to carry a handgun, when you can own one at 18....


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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Poo, have you tried to get it reversed or expunged, rights restored, etc? Seems like there should be some way to get things back on track for you... or did i miss understand and it was age related?
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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    It is age related. I am 18. My record is very clean. I intend to keep it that way. But if I am in a life threatening situation, and I have been in some real crappy ones, getting in trouble for possessing a handgun underage would be the least of my worries.


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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Good to hear it's age related, And i can relate well to your predicament, I was a hardcore firearms history buff when i was 11. At 12 had received pro-marksman in boyscouts, and by 13 had read 3 or 4 of Ian V. Hogg's books cover to cover and was seriously getting into Masad Ayoob readings. My wait was torture, but luckily my mom bought me a 1860 cap and ball revolver, it was my first. At 15 I had a couple WWII Rifles and at 18 built a vintage 60's Semi-Auto M16A1. - They all stayed in the house <cry> I 100% know how hard it is to wait for carrying.

    - I personally recommend studying several other weapon techniques too, knife, short stick, etc. and realise that you are surrounded by weapons 24/7 even if no gun is available. One could potentially kill a man with a spatula or tooth pic. I got into swords, both European and Japanese, and still keep a high quality Katana on a stand above the TV, and one would have better chance to survive a round from my .45 than being dealt blows with the clayforged blade.... Just something to consider since i hate to see anyone get into trouble where firearms are related, though i fully understand that it is better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six.

    - So, i am proud to see a fellow early starter, knowledge gatherer, and i feel your in good company and presence of many like minded individuals here.

    Bat
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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Wow Bat, you had a great start. I practiced a mix of boxing, wrestling, and was currently in TKD, until my car accident, which has left me not so good. I figured, since I can't do as much before then I might as well get a gun. Second day I was 18, I went down to the gunstore, with so many questions. Apparently, gunstores are not very good for gathering information, the clerk, didn't give a **** what was what, he just wanted to sell me something, anything at all. For now, I carry my ASP baton, and my smith & wesson knife. I've come out of a lot of situations unharmed, using my brain, which could be a better weapon in most cases. I am here to learn, and I have learned a great deal, and even helped some others look at the gun community, get that "gun license" myth out of their head.

    I like it here on OCDO. :celebrate


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    Poosharker wrote:
    I been thinking about carrying anyways, just because according to RCW 9.41.050, it would be a misdemeanor. My life is more important than a misdemeanor.
    All I can say is "wink."

    I always wonder why would you have to be 21 to carry a handgun, when you can own one at 18....
    You're no the only one, my friend.

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Spyder Tattoo was part of the "empty Holster" bunch at the WAC show, and I had to loan him a holster so he could do that.
    LOL, YOU JERK!!! You just have to rub it in on yet another thread don't you.

    . ( your comment mad me laugh so hard TriggerDr. )
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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    I'm actually very glad that we can give each other some friendly ribbing, these boards have been a real drag lately.


    Certified Glock Armorer

    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

    A 1911 that works properly is as rare as a Glock that doesn't.

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    SpyderTattoo wrote:
    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Spyder Tattoo was part of the "empty Holster" bunch at the WAC show, and I had to loan him a holster so he could do that.
    LOL, YOU JERK!!! You just have to rub it in on yet another thread don't you.

    . ( your comment mad me laugh so hard TriggerDr. )
    but you made it look as good as it could...you rocked the empty holster like a pro.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Kooks come and go on this forum but the better guys usually stick around.

    I empty holster carried twice into court.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    I have a question. If I were to empty holster, wouldn't that give an LEO a reason to try to search me, by saying "Oh well, you have a holster for a gun, where do you have the gun hidden, blah blah"?

    Edited to add:

    And yeah let's say I don't give consent to search, blah blah, but they do a RIP anyway, and find I have an illegal knife or whatever. And then they take it. Aren't I at a disadvantage here? Giving them a reason to search?


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Poosharker wrote:
    I have a question. If I were to empty holster, wouldn't that give an LEO a reason to try to search me, by saying "Oh well, you have a holster for a gun, where do you have the gun hidden, blah blah"?

    Edited to add:

    And yeah let's say I don't give consent to search, blah blah, but they do a RIP anyway, and find I have an illegal knife or whatever. And then they take it. Aren't I at a disadvantage here? Giving them a reason to search?
    Nope it is not illegal for you to have a gun. Only if he identifies you runs your name and finds out you have a CPL. Don't consent to illegal police searches.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  19. #19
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Yes it is, I am 18, I cannot carry.

    I understand to not consent to illegal searches, but I had a great Sheriffs deputy resource officer at my high school, that told me about illegal "Rips" where they just do it anyway and if they do find something, they can't really use it in court but you don't get it back either.

    And I sure as hell ain't going to physically resist a search legal or not, but I will make sure to verbally refuse to cover my ass.


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Poosharker wrote:
    Yes it is, I am 18, I cannot carry.

    I understand to not consent to illegal searches, but I had a great Sheriffs deputy resource officer at my high school, that told me about illegal "Rips" where they just do it anyway and if they do find something, they can't really use it in court but you don't get it back either.

    And I sure as hell ain't going to physically resist a search legal or not, but I will make sure to verbally refuse to cover my ass.
    Yep that is key make sure you don't consist, but resisting can lead to a whole differant set of problems.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    I have never understood why an eighteen year old can carry a gun in the defense of his/her country, but can't carry a gun in Washington State in defense of him/herself or the state. Where is the sense in that?

  22. #22
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    So in theory;

    I could carry around openly, and since I don't have to identify myself, they wouldn't know my true age, unless of course I committed a crime or traffic violation or whatever, and there could be no possible way for them to know I wouldn't be able to carry due to age? I am sure I read somewhere that officers can't do something just because they have a "hunch".

    Is that correct or would I run into another problem?


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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    I have never understood why an eighteen year old can carry a gun in the defense of his/her country, but can't carry a gun in Washington State in defense of him/herself or the state. Where is the sense in that?
    Because apparently individuals don't matter, your country does though!

    Ever heard of dying for your country?

    I never heard of "dying for yourself".


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    I didnt own a handgun at 18, but got my XD .45 at 19 years old and probably carried more than your average CPL holder from that point on. Never had any reason or desire to carry an empty holster when I didnt have my XD on me though.

    About the only time I didnt carry it was at work and when I was on my motorcycle. It was always with me if I was driving somewhere or on foot though. No one ever saw it. No close calls with the police. Drive within the limits, and avoid situations where you're more likely to have a run in with an officer who doesn't care about your rights.

    I've only been 21 for 2.5 months and Ive had my CPL all but 10 of those days and Ive still yet to have an encounter with any form of law enforcement. Granted Ive only OCed on about 20 occasions, but its just something to maybe help put your mind at ease if you decide to "jump the gun" a bit. I was always worrying; what if the stores anti-theft alarm inadvertently goes off as I'm leaving? What if the guy in front of me in line tries to rob the place? What if Im actually threatened enough that I need to draw and/or use my weapon? What if Im rendered unconscious in an car accident? Well none of those situations arose. Nor did I ever need my weapon though.

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    Poosharker wrote:
    So in theory;

    I could carry around openly, and since I don't have to identify myself, they wouldn't know my true age, unless of course I committed a crime or traffic violation or whatever, and there could be no possible way for them to know I wouldn't be able to carry due to age? I am sure I read somewhere that officers can't do something just because they have a "hunch".

    Is that correct or would I run into another problem?
    I never had the stones to try this. Thought about it a lot though. Leave any form of ID behind and its really pretty bulletproof IMO.

    All that ever worried me about it was running into that one cop who doesnt feel he needs to follow the book in regards to detaining or arresting people.

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