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Thread: 2 questions on buying a gun

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    So I have two questions about buying a gun. If I remember correctly you need to forms of ID. Will a hunting license work for the second one?

    The other question I had is do you have to put your social security number on the form? Seems like I read this was optional but I wanted to double check. Is there any reason not to put it on there?

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    Yes, you can use your hunting license (I used mine).

    I believe the SSN is optional, but it's been so long since I've bought a gun, I don't remember for sure.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    hometheaterman wrote:
    So I have two questions about buying a gun. If I remember correctly you need to forms of ID. Will a hunting license work for the second one?

    The other question I had is do you have to put your social security number on the form? Seems like I read this was optional but I wanted to double check. Is there any reason not to put it on there?
    Replace "social security number" with "bank account number", re-ask yourself the same question, and use the same answer you come up with.

    TFred


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    hometheaterman wrote:
    do you have to put your social security number on the form? Is there any reason not to put it on there?
    No. Many write "not disclosed, if any" in the SSN space to convey that it is an intentional omission.

    One reason for not putting it on the 4473 or state form is to hinder, in a small way, pervasive Government attempts to document individual possessions, beliefs, and behavior that could be used against oneself in a foreseeable future.

    Another is that one does not know who will see the forms, and what use they might make of the information within. There is sufficient power in knowledge of an individual's DOB, place of birth, SSN, and home address so as to make identify theft trivial.

    edit: spelling

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    hometheaterman wrote:
    So I have two questions about buying a gun. If I remember correctly you need to forms of ID. Will a hunting license work for the second one?

    The other question I had is do you have to put your social security number on the form? Seems like I read this was optional but I wanted to double check. Is there any reason not to put it on there?
    You can refuse to provide a social security number and a government agency cannot refuse to provide you a service of benefit.


    Privacy Act (P.L. 93-579) enacted effective September 27, 1975 to limit governmental use of the SSN:

    Provided that no State or local government agency may withhold a benefit from a person simply because the individual refuses to furnish his or her SSN.

    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    One other question. If you buy one from someone out of state I'm aware you have to go through a FFL dealer. However, do they get a copy of the paperwork will all your info on it or does just the dealer get that?

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Form 4473 would be filled out at the dealer in your state by you when the FFL dealer does your background check. The person you bought the firearm fromdoes not see it. The person you bought the firearm from would only have the information you gave them.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    There are two requirements as to ID. First, that you can identify who you are and what your name is. Secondly that you can establish residency. For the second purpose, almost anything that's passed through the hands of a bureaucrat will do (including a postmarked letter that's been delivered to you at your home address). Utility bills and property tax receipts will work. So the answer is, "yes."

    Next, the answer is, "no." The Virginia and U.S. privacy acts require a governmental agency to make it really clear when the SSN is required, and then they have to tell you why, what they're going to use it for, etc. The forms you fill out to buy a gun have a privacy act notice, in fact, explaining that the use of the SSN is optional. I never use it for identification. You can just leave that field blank.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    I've been told on more than one occasion by more than one dealer that a Virginia NICS will take significantly longer if the SSN is not provided.

    I have almost felt coerced into giving it up, as if not providing it would so increase the search time that it would be a great inconvenience to me.

    And yet it's taken at least 24 hours for them to clear me each time anyhow. I have NEVER seen anyone get "instantly" checked. Not once. It's one heck of a misnomer, if you ask me.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    wylde007 wrote:
    I've been told on more than one occasion by more than one dealer that a Virginia NICS will take significantly longer if the SSN is not provided.

    I have almost felt coerced into giving it up, as if not providing it would so increase the search time that it would be a great inconvenience to me.

    And yet it's taken at least 24 hours for them to clear me each time anyhow. I have NEVER seen anyone get "instantly" checked. Not once. It's one heck of a misnomer, if you ask me.
    I've never given my SSN when buying a firearm, and have always been instantly approved (within 2 minutes).
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    2a4all wrote:
    I've never given my SSN when buying a firearm, and have always been instantly approved (within 2 minutes).
    Like I said, I've never seen it and I have been delayed every time.

    Perhaps it has just been coincidence or I have a very common name... as well as everyone else in the room at the time.:?

    Meh. Glad your experience has been less inconvenient than mine.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    2a4all must have an uncommon name and whomever it IS common with in the state isn't a criminal.

    I've never had mine approved in less than an hour in VA. Had one in Texas done instantly, but never in VA...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    hometheaterman wrote:
    Will a hunting license work for the second one?
    Interesting you ask - I attempted to buy a single shot 22-250 @ the Dicks on Columbia Pike in Arlington, and the manager refused to process me using any of the following combination:

    Valid VA DL
    Valid VA Hunting License
    Utah Concealed Carry Permit

    All three had matching names & addresses, but he would only accept a "Document issued by the state of VA" and insisted that the hunting license was not acceptable because it was issued by Wal Mart.

    Regarding checks - I always put my SSN on it (i know, bad citizen) and my check goes through in 5 minutes or less.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Hunting License? Issued by Wal Mart?:?

    I wonder what the DGIF would have to say about that?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    wylde007 wrote:
    Hunting License? Issued by Wal Mart?:?

    I wonder what the DGIF would have to say about that?
    Agreed - they are acting as an agent of the state.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    From the VSP website:

    Primary Identification

    The primary form of identification shall consist of a valid photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or of the prospective purchaser’s home state that denotes the purchaser’s name, sex, date of birth, and address. Where the primary form of identification is a photo-identification issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles, the date of issuance must exceed sixty (60) days from the date of new issue or duplicate issue unless the prospective purchaser also presents a copy of his/her Department of Motor Vehicles driver's record showing that the original date of issue exceeds sixty (60) days.

    A State Department Driver’s License is an acceptable primary form of identification: a photo-identification issued by a [Federal] governmental agency which indicates the individual’s name, address, race, sex, and date of birth.

    Social security cards and birth certificates ARE NOT acceptable forms of identification.

    Secondary Identification

    The secondary form of identification, for Virginia residents and residents of other states, must show an address identical to that shown on the primary form of identification. Some acceptable forms of secondary ID are:

    • a current lease
    • evidence of currently paid personal property tax or real estate tax
    • a current utility or telephone bill
    • a current voter registration card
    • a current bank check
    • a current passport
    • a current automobile registration
    • a current hunting or fishing license


    James Reynolds

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    VaLiberty wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:*
    Will a hunting license work for the second one?
    Interesting you ask - I attempted to buy a single shot 22-250 @ the Dicks on Columbia Pike in Arlington, and the manager refused to process me using any of the following combination:

    Valid VA DL
    Valid VA Hunting License
    Utah Concealed Carry Permit

    All three had matching names & addresses, but he would only accept a "Document issued by the state of VA" and insisted that the hunting license was not acceptable because it was issued by Wal Mart.

    Regarding checks - I always put my SSN on it (i know, bad citizen) and my check goes through in 5 minutes or less.
    What nonsense! When WalMart sells you a hunting license, that's not WalMart issuing the license; they're acting as the agent for the Commonwealth; it's the Commonwealth of Virginia that issues hunting licenses. That guy clearly has had no training. Anytime someone gives you crap like that, ask them to call their local BATFE agent - dealers are issued contact information just for them so they can do that when they've got questions, so don't let them tell you they can't. If you've got the cash, and you're eligible, tell them so and offer to pay the money. Unreasonable refusal to sell the goods as advertised is a violation of the Virginia Consumer Protection Act, section 59.1-200 paragraph 8, I think. That's good for five hundred dollars, minimum, plus attorneys' fees and costs, even if you didn't lose any money over it. Failure to receive the merchandise is "damages", and tender of payment IS payment in Virginia (if you've offered the cash, and they refuse, they've given you a gift, but they can't say they didn't get paid).
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    From the VSP website:

    Primary Identification

    The primary form of identification shall consist of a valid photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or of the prospective purchaser’s home state that denotes the purchaser’s name, sex, date of birth, and address. Where the primary form of identification is a photo-identification issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles, the date of issuance must exceed sixty (60) days from the date of new issue or duplicate issue unless the prospective purchaser also presents a copy of his/her Department of Motor Vehicles driver's record showing that the original date of issue exceeds sixty (60) days.

    A State Department Driver’s License is an acceptable primary form of identification: a photo-identification issued by a [Federal] governmental agency which indicates the individual’s name, address, race, sex, and date of birth.

    Social security cards and birth certificates ARE NOT acceptable forms of identification.

    Secondary Identification

    The secondary form of identification, for Virginia residents and residents of other states, must show an address identical to that shown on the primary form of identification. Some acceptable forms of secondary ID are:
    • a current lease
    • evidence of currently paid personal property tax or real estate tax
    • a current utility or telephone bill
    • a current voter registration card
    • a current bank check
    • a current passport
    • a current automobile registration
    • a current hunting or fishing license
    The passport option always amazes me, since it has no residency information on it whatsoever (other than what you pencil in yourself!)

    TFred


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    Has the part you have to fill out about your place of birth always been on the form? I just didn't remember that.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    What amazes me is the recently paid utility bill, lease, or bank check. These are all private documents completely unregulated by the state. Yet the guy thinks a hunting license isn't acceptable?? Even if it was issued by wal-mart(which I understand it isn') doesn't make it any less than the others.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    I use a drivers license and hunting license no problem. A couple months ago when I bought my pistol it took about 30 secs to get cleared but I also have a security clearance which expedites the process

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    driveramsII wrote:
    I use a drivers license and hunting license no problem. A couple months ago when I bought my pistol it took about 30 secs to get cleared but I also have a security clearance which expedites the process
    I don't believe that's true.

    Starting about 5 yrs ago, I get delayed every time. 10 minutes sometimes, an hour or more sometimes. I've had a clearance for about a decade.





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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    FWIW: Normally it takes minutes for me to get approved. The longest I had to wait was an hour or two, when the Website was down. I put my SSN on the form (they say it will help avoid confusion) but I know it is optional. I figure if the gubbermant really wants to screw me they will whether or not my SSN is on the form.

    Travis, you always have to wait longer because you are on "The LIST". You shouldn't be so damn patriotic!

    I have a friend with a very common name in NC. He had to wait over six months for his NC version of CHP because they were checking every variation of his name and all felonies across the state.

    When I bought my Sig556 I had to show a birth certificate because it had magazines that held over 20 rounds (normal 30 rounders). I complained but the gun store said it was an ATF requirement. I had bought 30-round 45acp magazines before and never had to show a BC!!!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    FWIW: Normally it takes minutes for me to get approved. The longest I had to wait was an hour or two, when the Website was down. I put my SSN on the form (they say it will help avoid confusion) but I know it is optional. I figure if the gubbermant really wants to screw me they will whether or not my SSN is on the form.

    Travis, you always have to wait longer because you are on "The LIST". You shouldn't be so damn patriotic!

    I have a friend with a very common name in NC. He had to wait over six months for his NC version of CHP because they were checking every variation of his name and all felonies across the state.

    When I bought my Sig556 I had to show a birth certificate because it had magazines that held over 20 rounds (normal 30 rounders). I complained but the gun store said it was an ATF requirement. I had bought 30-round 45acp magazines before and never had to show a BC!!!
    I wouldn't pay too much attention to what some FFL's say.
    This is a post from an FFL that basically was trying to steal the gun.

    this is a note for all
    I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
    I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
    This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with


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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Same here, as others have said: quick checks for me, if not instant. I do not provide my SSN. The only time it's taken longer is at gun shows, and that's because there's a line of forms for them to process before they get to mine. Even then it's only a few minutes.

    I've never found another person in the country that has the same name as me, either.

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