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Thread: OK to LUCC on one's person while walking around in public?

  1. #1
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    Hey guys, great website with a huge wealth of info that has really helped me navigate these crazy CA laws. I have read all the penal codes and am confident that I am compliant but I just have a couple questions and want to verify that I am correct in my methods. Let me lay it out for you and please tell me if am I wrong about anything here.

    I plan to carry my handgun in my car at all times. I am not required to be going to, or from, any specific place. So basically, I can always have it in the car. I keep it unloaded and fully-enclosed in a soft pistol case. The zipper on the case is locked to a d-ring with a key lock. I know its probablya gray areato leave the key in the lock so lets not worry about that for now. The gun is unloaded but the magazine is full and is kept inside the same pistol case, right next to the gun. The mag isnot inserted into the mag well, its just loose and sitting by the gun.I can then put the case anywhere in my car: under the seat, on my lap, behind the seat, etc. Sound good?

    Now....here is where I couldnt find any info yet. Am I alright to put the handgun in a backpack, or something similar, and walk around with it out in public? What if the wife wants to throw hers in her purse as she shops? The gun is technically concealed and I do not have a CCW, but it is still unloaded and locked securely in a fully-enclosed soft case with the full mag sitting next to it (not in the mag well). Samelaws apply here as if when transporting?

    Thanks!!

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    You have correctly identified the 'gray area' of LUCC.

    The longer discussion of this topic at the CalGuns forum seems to be a 50/50 split with regard to this conundrum.

    I don't personally have a decision on where I stand for this yet...

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Oh, and welcome to OCDO!

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    tonyoverthere wrote:
    Hey guys, great website with a huge wealth of info that has really helped me navigate these crazy CA laws. I have read all the penal codes and am confident that I am compliant but I just have a couple questions and want to verify that I am correct in my methods. Let me lay it out for you and please tell me if am I wrong about anything here.

    I plan to carry my handgun in my car at all times. I am not required to be going to, or from, any specific place. So basically, I can always have it in the car. I keep it unloaded and fully-enclosed in a soft pistol case. The zipper on the case is locked to a d-ring with a key lock. I know its probablya gray areato leave the key in the lock so lets not worry about that for now. The gun is unloaded but the magazine is full and is kept inside the same pistol case, right next to the gun. The mag isnot inserted into the mag well, its just loose and sitting by the gun.I can then put the case anywhere in my car: under the seat, on my lap, behind the seat, etc. Sound good?

    Now....here is where I couldnt find any info yet. Am I alright to put the handgun in a backpack, or something similar, and walk around with it out in public? What if the wife wants to throw hers in her purse as she shops? The gun is technically concealed and I do not have a CCW, but it is still unloaded and locked securely in a fully-enclosed soft case with the full mag sitting next to it (not in the mag well). Samelaws apply here as if when transporting?

    Thanks!!
    12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
    citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
    is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
    or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
    firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
    firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
    the following applies to the firearm:
    (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
    vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
    the utility or glove compartment.
    (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
    motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
    the firearm is contained within a locked container.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    12026.1 Covers Concealed Vehicle Carry exemptions

    12026.2 Covers Other Concealed exemptions



    Sadly, those sections aren't as clear cut as I would like them to be.

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    Gundude wrote:
    tonyoverthere wrote:
    Hey guys, great website with a huge wealth of info that has really helped me navigate these crazy CA laws. I have read all the penal codes and am confident that I am compliant but I just have a couple questions and want to verify that I am correct in my methods. Let me lay it out for you and please tell me if am I wrong about anything here.

    I plan to carry my handgun in my car at all times. I am not required to be going to, or from, any specific place. So basically, I can always have it in the car. I keep it unloaded and fully-enclosed in a soft pistol case. The zipper on the case is locked to a d-ring with a key lock. I know its probablya gray areato leave the key in the lock so lets not worry about that for now. The gun is unloaded but the magazine is full and is kept inside the same pistol case, right next to the gun. The mag isnot inserted into the mag well, its just loose and sitting by the gun.I can then put the case anywhere in my car: under the seat, on my lap, behind the seat, etc. Sound good?

    Now....here is where I couldnt find any info yet. Am I alright to put the handgun in a backpack, or something similar, and walk around with it out in public? What if the wife wants to throw hers in her purse as she shops? The gun is technically concealed and I do not have a CCW, but it is still unloaded and locked securely in a fully-enclosed soft case with the full mag sitting next to it (not in the mag well). Samelaws apply here as if when transporting?

    Thanks!!
    12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
    citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
    is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
    or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
    firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
    firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
    the following applies to the firearm:
    (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
    vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
    the utility or glove compartment.
    (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
    motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
    the firearm is contained within a locked container.


    So does that mean while not "carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle"... say such as walking down the street from your house... is not legal??


    edit: or how about a motorcycle? or a bicycle?



  7. #7
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    So, for non vehicle...



    12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
    following:
    (4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
    12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.


    12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
    of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
    resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
    the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
    code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
    who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
    s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
    private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
    resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
    concealed upon the person.


    This chain shows that LUCC is ok if directly traveling directly between the bolded places above.

    That's my cursory take on the issue, but I know there are arguments otherwise.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    So does that mean while not "carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle"... say such as walking down the street from your house... is not legal??


    edit: or how about a motorcycle? or a bicycle?

    12026.1 Covers Concealed Vehicle Carry exemptions

    12026.2 Covers 'Other' Concealed exemptions



    I think a motorcycle would be a "motor vehicle" per 12026.1(a)(1) The sticky part here is that it proscribes "within" ... So does that mean a permanently mounted saddle bagwould be ok? but not a backpack? or maybe only under the seat?

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    Gundude wrote:
    12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
    citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
    is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
    or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
    firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
    firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
    the following applies to the firearm:
    (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
    vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
    the utility or glove compartment.
    (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
    motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
    the firearm is contained within a locked container.
    I take this to mean that it doesnt matter where I am going or coming from, as long as its in the car. But I can only carry it on my person when walking to or from the vehicle for a lawful purpose....and lawful purpose probably doesnt mean while grocery shopping or walking around downtown? What u think?

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    tonyoverthere wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
    citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
    is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
    or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
    firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
    firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
    the following applies to the firearm:
    (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
    vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
    the utility or glove compartment.
    (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
    motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
    the firearm is contained within a locked container.
    I take this to mean that it doesnt matter where I am going or coming from, as long as its in the car. But I can only carry it on my person when walking to or from the vehicle for a lawful purpose....and lawful purpose probably doesnt mean while grocery shopping or walking around downtown? What u think?
    Maybe grocery shopping is not a lawful purpose if your stealing them. I always grocery shop lawfully.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Gundude wrote:
    tonyoverthere wrote:
    Gundude wrote:
    12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
    citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
    is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
    or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
    firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
    firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
    the following applies to the firearm:
    (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
    vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
    the utility or glove compartment.
    (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
    motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
    the firearm is contained within a locked container.
    I take this to mean that it doesnt matter where I am going or coming from, as long as its in the car. But I can only carry it on my person when walking to or from the vehicle for a lawful purpose....and lawful purpose probably doesnt mean while grocery shopping or walking around downtown? What u think?
    Maybe grocery shopping is not a lawful purpose if your stealing them. I always grocery shop lawfully.
    Hahaha thats what I was originally thinking but I figured it couldnt have been that simple. I guess Ideducted that"lawful purpose" meant walking to or from a shooting range, campsite, private property, residence, etc.

    So as long as Im not out breaking the law or intending to do so, I believe it can be LUCC on my person,in a backpack, or purse, etc. Thanks!

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Ahhh, I knew someone would jog my memory...lawful purposes to/from car

    If your mode of transportation is a motor vehicle LUCC is fine to/from that vehicle for any lawful purpose.

    So, Home to Car to Grocery Store to Car to Home = OK

    But,

    Home to Car to Grocery Store to Dry Cleaner to Car to Home = BAD (didn't go to the car between stores)

    So, if I remember the CalGuns discussion correctly, this is why "the right people" said not to LUCC at a shopping mall - because you could/would have multiple stops between trips to the car.

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    This is pure insanity.

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    Rusty wrote:
    This is pure insanity.
    Definition of CA Gun Laws?

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    I wonder if it'd be easier if we all just got up and moved to NV or AZ. :/

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    mjones wrote:
    Ahhh, I knew someone would jog my memory...lawful purposes to/from car

    If your mode of transportation is a motor vehicle LUCC is fine to/from that vehicle for any lawful purpose.

    So, Home to Car to Grocery Store to Car to Home = OK

    But,

    Home to Car to Grocery Store to Dry Cleaner to Car to Home = BAD (didn't go to the car between stores)

    So, if I remember the CalGuns discussion correctly, this is why "the right people" said not to LUCC at a shopping mall - because you could/would have multiple stops between trips to the car.
    That makes no sense. I would like the person to come to that deduction to explain. Any lawful purpose... I have a purpose to shop at a shopping mall. Why would this not be supported by that definition? I fail to see the argument. I could see if the law said..

    "directly to or from any motor vehicle for any (ONE) lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container."

    Or is the argumentbecause the word is not "purposes"?

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    No, lawful purpose means going about your business without committing any crimes. Basically, that law says, as long as the firearm is in a locked container, you can take it wherever you want. To me, its that simple.

    mjones, as for 12026, i never read that before. I didn't realize that I could have been carrying concealed from my home to my place of work. I was locking it up, putting it in the car, taking it to work, then taking it out and holstering at work.

    Or am I reading that wrong?

    Also, Its slightly confusing wording. Does the place of business also have to be owned by the same person? or is it just your place of work?

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    J.A.G. wrote:
    mjones, as for 12026, i never read that before. I didn't realize that I could have been carrying concealed from my home to my place of work. I was locking it up, putting it in the car, taking it to work, then taking it out and holstering at work.

    Or am I reading that wrong?
    Yuppers, you are reading it wrong. Since the original discussion was in the context of locked container carry, I ommitted the following:



    12026.2 (b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
    while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
    unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d)...

    12026.2 (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
    container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
    combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
    container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
    motor vehicle.


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    J.A.G. wrote:
    No, lawful purpose means going about your business without committing any crimes. Basically, that law says, as long as the firearm is in a locked container, you can take it wherever you want. To me, its that simple.
    Thats the way I am reading it now. One can basically drive anywhere or walk anywhere as long as its lawful, under the circumstances I have been referring to.

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    Lawful purpose list:

    Feel free to add your purpose.

    1: Trip to gun store for ammo

    2: trip to Love Tools store

    3: trip to Hot Time Motel to meet wife's sister

    4: trip to Hot Time Motel to meet husband's brother

    5:
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    mjones wrote:
    But,

    Home to Car to Grocery Store to Dry Cleaner to Car to Home = BAD (didn't go to the car between stores)

    So, if I remember the CalGuns discussion correctly, this is why "the right people" said not to LUCC at a shopping mall - because you could/would have multiple stops between trips to the car.
    That makes no sense. I would like the person to come to that deduction to explain. Any lawful purpose... I have a purpose to shop at a shopping mall. Why would this not be supported by that definition? I fail to see the argument. I could see if the law said..

    "directly to or from any motor vehicle for any (ONE) lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container."

    Or is the argumentbecause the word is not "purposes"?
    Ican't say that I really have a clear understanding of the really fine points of LUCC either pro or con. I'm just doing my best to help

    I personally don't do it as I am exempt according to 12027(j)

    12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
    following:
    (j) The carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
    of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to
    carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Article 3
    (commencing with Section 12050).


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    J.A.G. wrote:
    No, lawful purpose means going about your business without committing any crimes. Basically, that law says, as long as the firearm is in a locked container, you can take it wherever you want. To me, its that simple.

    mjones, as for 12026, i never read that before. I didn't realize that I could have been carrying concealed from my home to my place of work. I was locking it up, putting it in the car, taking it to work, then taking it out and holstering at work.

    Or am I reading that wrong?

    Also, Its slightly confusing wording. Does the place of business also have to be owned by the same person? or is it just your place of work?
    PullNshoot can we get you or your brother's help on this one? Thanks

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    ACMeesot wrote:
    I wonder if it'd be easier if we all just got up and moved to NV or AZ. :/
    Yes, it would... but where's the fun in that?

    Seriously though, beyond the fight we're putting on here, there's an even larger war going on. Liberty is on the line, and there are people who are fighting another good fight on yet another battlefield.

    While I have a great deal of admiration and respect for those who refuse to leave their home territory, I must express equal respect and admiration for those willing to take the fight on the road.

    If you're like me, and have little attachment to this geographic location, then I encourage you to consider joining another battle.

    www.freestateproject.org
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


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    Ok lawful manner means that if I carry my gun in a backpack to my college where guns are not allowed, that is not lawful? Or does that particular piece of law exempt locked in a container?

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    Lawful purpose list:

    Feel free to add your purpose.

    1: Trip to gun store for ammo

    2: trip to Love Tools store

    3: trip to Hot Time Motel to meet wife's sister

    4: trip to Hot Time Motel to meet husband's brother

    5: trip to Hot Time Motel to meet wife's brother?


    But in all seriousness now.

    I don't see an exception for carrying LUCC when you are not going to a vehicle.

    12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
    he or she does any of the following:
    (1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
    control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
    of being concealed upon the person.
    (2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
    or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

    (3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
    or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
    of being concealed upon the person.
    I see exemptions in 12026.1 for how to carry in a vehicle, and transporting to and from a vehicle, but nothing about just walking around that way.

    So my read of this (in relation to the original post) is

    You are guilty of CCW if you carry concealed upon the person [PC 12025(a)(2)] unless:

    1. The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.

    or

    2. The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

    [PC 12026.1(a)(1-2)]

    So if you were walking down the street with a firearm, unloaded, in a locked container, 12026.1(a)(1) does not apply, as the firearm is not in a vehicle. and 12026.1(a)(2) does not apply because you must be going to or from a motor vehicle.

    therefore, if you meet neither exception, then you are CCW.

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