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Thread: Pueblo Muni Last NIght

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    So, being fairly new to open carry and Colorado laws in general, I've spent the last year or so reading up and studying before jumping in.

    I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it so oc'd to the Pueblo Muni range last night. I walked inside and struck up a conversation with a couple of the members there who were very adamant that carrying a pistol in a holster is concealed, even if it's not covered by a jacket.

    So I guess the question is this, is my reading comprehension THAT bad, or are regular shooters that ignorant of Colorado's oc laws?

    I understand that most people do not oc and that avid gunners just get a cc permit, but as I read it if the firearm is visible from three sides, it's not concealed.

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    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, there is no definition of what exactly constitutes "concealed."

    IANAL, but
    in People ex rel. OR the court found concealed to mean "placed out of sight so as not to be discernible or apparent by ordinary observation." Under this definition, carrying a handgun in a holster that is otherwise not concealed does not constitute CC. A holstered firearm that is worn openly is OC. Denver would certainly view it that way.

    There have been a few discussions on here about exactly how much of the firearm can be covered by the holster itself but there is nothing in the statutes about this. I would think that pretty much any holster is fine except those that cover the entire firearm (like some military holsters). But even this is unclear.

    Generally speaking, an uncovered firearm is OC. A firearm hidden from plain view is CC.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    If you have an OWB holstered firearm that is clearly visible, no police officer is going to think that you're concealing. Doesn't matter what those idiots at the range think.

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    bogidu wrote:
    So, being fairly new to open carry and Colorado laws in general, I've spent the last year or so reading up and studying before jumping in.

    I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it so oc'd to the Pueblo Muni range last night. I walked inside and struck up a conversation with a couple of the members there who were very adamant that carrying a pistol in a holster is concealed, even if it's not covered by a jacket.

    So I guess the question is this, is my reading comprehension THAT bad, or are regular shooters that ignorant of Colorado's oc laws?

    I understand that most people do not oc and that avid gunners just get a cc permit, but as I read it if the firearm is visible from three sides, it's not concealed.
    I find it curious that there would even be an "open carry" - if a holstered pistol is CC. Reason being- What would you be expected to do to open carry? Can't just handle it- that's generally illegal. Haha You may want to ask them, what do they actually consider OC?

    Anyway, like entartet17, I take a common sense approach- If the pistol is visible- it's not concealed. I mean it's black and white, by definition, only grey by perception.

    From my house to my car (or other short trips), sometimes, I employ such lax standards as to simply transport my pistol in my rear jean pocket- leaving the grip and hammer fully visible. One may argue that there could actually be More pistol visible (by percentage) when carried this way as opposed to holstered.

    This may sound reckless, but the pistol is very snug in my back pocket like that. Obviously not the ideal way to carry- but suffices from house to car.

    That being said- we should all note that at the time of encounter- the LEO will be the one deciding what's OC or CC. Basically, it's at the LEOs discretion. If your pistol was OC or CC- is a he said - she said battle, and in court the LEO will probably win that one.


    That's my .02, now worth .01. (inflation)

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    entartet17 wrote:
    Generally speaking, an uncovered firearm is OC.
    You are correct. Some say if you were to wear a NAA belt buckle full in the Open you "may" be charged with concealed carry because it masks the TRUE NATURE of the firearm. The court's "REASONABLE MAN" would think it's a big belt buckle where the rest of us would think its a big belt buckle that hold a nifty little .22 revolver.


    Carry On.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Ian wrote:
    If you have an OWB holstered firearm that is clearly visible, no police officer is going to think that you're concealing. Doesn't matter what those idiots at the range think.
    That checks, as do all the rest of the posts. I just did a very thorough review of CO firearms laws as I recently moved back here, and put simply, "if any portion of a weapon recognizable to the common, rational man as a weapon is visible, then the weapon is not concealed."

    This could be nothing more than a gun butt sticking out of a pocket. However, to be on the safe side, a simple side holster will do.

    As for the range idiots claiming a holstered weapon is "concealed," yep, they're idiots. They may have been confusing range rules with state law. I know for a fact that Dragonman wants everyone to carry their pistols, slides back, to and from their vehicles.

    Well, it's his property....

    Just don't confuse range rules with state or federal law (or allow others to confuse you).
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    A pistol in a holster uncovered is OC, period. A shirt covering the top could be questionable in some places, but get a CCW and don't worry about it. Outside of the PDR of Denver, CO is as gun friendly--especially El Paso County, as anywhere in the country. Even Denver has to follow state law on CC and car carry. Their only exemption is OC.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    entartet17 wrote:
    Generally speaking, an uncovered firearm is OC.
    You are correct. Some say if you were to wear a NAA belt buckle full in the Open you "may" be charged with concealed carry because it masks the TRUE NATURE of the firearm. The court's "REASONABLE MAN" would think it's a big belt buckle where the rest of us would think its a big belt buckle that hold a nifty little .22 revolver.

    Man, that's a pretty cool belt buckle!

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    Thank you all for the responses to this, I thought I'd completely misunderstood all that I had read for several 'seasoned' shooters to so pointedly tell me I was wrong and was breaking the law.

  10. #10
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    Go's to show that even avid shooters are clueless as to the laws. A few people I know who own guns and shoot would never consider CC or OC or even keep a weapon loaded in their home. They just think its a fun activity to do on the weekends like dirt bikes or hiking. I think its sad to see such ignorance among fellow gun owners. Carry on!

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    Gunslinger wrote:
    A pistol in a holster uncovered is OC, period. A shirt covering the top could be questionable in some places, but get a CCW and don't worry about it. Outside of the PDR of Denver, CO is as gun friendly--especially El Paso County, as anywhere in the country. Even Denver has to follow state law on CC and car carry. Their only exemption is OC.
    Good, succinct post.


    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I checked Wikipedia, and found the following Formal Definitions:
    Open carry - the act of publicly carrying a firearm in plain sight.
    Plain sight - broadly defined as not being hidden from common observation; varies somewhat from state to state.
    That said, if I'm wearing a black shirt, black pants, have a black holster and a black gun, it will probably not be seen by most casual observers in a restaurant! But that's "casual observation," not "common observation." Wikipedia didn't define "common observation.

    If you were to ask any rational adult, "is that man carrying a firearm?" and I was within 30 feet of them, the vast majority would be able to spot it.

    However, a "casual" observer would probably spot it at a restaurant.

    So: "Plain sight?" or "Camouflaged?"

    I would argue that when it comes to firearms carry, the term "camouflaged" refers to standard army camouflage, as in BDU's or the newer digital versions, and that simply wearing clothes and using a holster sharing the same color as the weapon is not "camouflaged."

    Agree or disagree? If so, why?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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