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Thread: You think we have some tough times?

  1. #1
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    OK, I might rather live in Chicago than, say England.

    Millionaire who fought off a knife-wielding burglar is jailed (while the intruder is let off)


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235782/Millionaire-Munir-Hussain-fought-knife-wielding-burglar-jailed-intruder-let-off.html#ixzz0ZsX6LmHt


    A millionaire businessman who fought back against a knife-wielding burglar was jailed for two-and-a-half years yesterday. But his attacker has been spared prison.

    Munir Hussain, 53, and his family were tied up and told to lie on the floor by career criminal Waled Salem, who burst into his home with two other masked men.

    Mr Hussain escaped and attacked Salem with a metal pole and a cricket bat. But yesterday it was the businessman who was starting a prison sentence for his 'very violent revenge'.

    Jailing him, Judge John Reddihough said some members of the public would think that 56-year-old Salem 'deserved what happened to him' and that Mr Hussain 'should not have been prosecuted'.

    But had he spared Mr Hussain jail, the judge said, the 'rule of law' would collapse.

    He said: 'If persons were permitted to take the law into their own hands and inflict their own instant and violent punishment on an apprehended offender rather than letting the criminal justice system take its course, then the rule of law and our system of criminal justice, which are hallmarks of a civilised society, would collapse.'

    Salem, who has previous convictions, has already been given a non-custodial sentence despite carrying out what the judge called a 'serious and wicked' attack.

    Mr Hussain's nightmare began on September 3 last year when he, his wife, 18-year-old daughter and two sons aged 18 and 15 returned from their mosque during Ramadan to find three intruders in their home in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire.

    They were tied up and told to get on the floor if they did not want to be killed. One of Mr Hussain's sons managed to escape and alerted Mr Hussain's younger brother Tokeer, 35, who lived a few doors away.

    Mr Hussain made a break for freedom by throwing a coffee table at his attackers. He and Tokeer chased the gang and brought Salem to the ground in a front garden.

    Reading Crown Court heard how Mr Hussain and his brother then beat Salem while he lay on the ground, using a cricket bat, a pole and a hockey stick - leaving him with a fractured skull and brain damage following the 'sustained' attack.

    Salem's condition meant he was unable to enter a plea to false imprisonment. He was given a non-custodial sentence-in October.

    Salem, of Borehamwood, Hertfordshire, did not give evidence at Mr Hussain's trial. Michael Wolkind, QC, representing Mr Hussain, who runs a soundproofing company, said his client's actions were 'taken in the agony of the moment' and that his 'calm judgment was not available'.

    'If there was a call to arms it was down to the extreme moment of stress,' he said. Mr Wolkind said Mr Hussain, a devout Muslim, blamed himself for the attack and felt guilty for not protecting his family properly. 'It will take him a number of years to recover,' he said.

    The court also heard from psychiatrist Dr Phillip Joseph who said Mr Hussain was a calm person who kept himself in control, but that his body had chosen the 'fight rather than flight' option.

    During mitigation a number of letters from Daily Mail readers who had supported a campaign against the businessman's conviction were read to the judge.

    The court heard that Mr Hussain's wife Shahwen has had a mini stroke since the attack.

    Judge Reddihough sentenced Munir Hussain to 30 months in jail for grievous bodily harm with intent. Tokeer was given 39 months because the judge said he had not faced as much provocation as his brother.

    The judge added: 'The prosecution rightly made it plain that there was no allegation against you, Munir Hussain, in respect of the force you used against Salem in defending your own home and family or of the force used by either of you in apprehending Salem.

    'However, the attack which then occurred was totally unnecessary and amounted to a very violent revenge attack on a defenceless man.

    'It may be that some members of the public or media commentators will assert that Salem deserved what happened to him, and that you should not have been prosecuted and need not be punished.

    'The courts must make it clear that such conduct is criminal and unacceptable.'

    Razi Shah, Mr Hussain's solicitor, said his family were devastated but hoped the conviction could be overturned at appeal.

    Last night an MP condemned the decision to jail Mr Hussain as 'perverse'. Philip Davies, Tory MP for Shipley, said: 'It's absolutely disgraceful. The public are sick to the back teeth of this kind of decision.

    'Whatever the rights and wrongs, the starting point should be that this man's home was violated. He must have been absolutely petrified.

    'A person who inflicts this kind of misery is free to go out and do it again somewhere. It's always the same, the real criminals get away scot free.'

    The 2008 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act sets out the terms on which people might 'use no more force than absolutely necessary' against criminals.

    Victims or those who intervene to stop a criminal have the backing of the law if they act instinctively, if they fear for their safety and act accordingly, if they act to prevent a criminal escaping, or if their use of force is neither 'excessive nor disproportionate'.

    ********

    From a sidebar so the citizens can understand what they areallowed to do:

    What is the law on defending your home?

    If you use force which is 'not excessive' against burglars then the law is on your side.

    Last year's Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill contained clauses to protect people from prosecution if they act instinctively and out of fear for their safety.

    Justice Secretary Jack Straw said:

    "'Law-abiding citizens should not be put off tackling criminals by fear of excessive investigation.

    'For a passer-by witnessing a street crime or a householder faced with a burglar, we are reassuring them that if they use force which is not excessive or disproportionate, the law really is behind them.'






  2. #2
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    This is dissappointing since we have judges (ex-lawyers) looking into foreign law for precendence in this country. Did they forget we rejected Briton's rule and government?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
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    The headline is a little misleading. The assailants were counter-attacked after Mr. Hussein freed himself, Mr. Hussein then chased them through the streets, catching one and beating him nearly to death.

    Even here in American, in states with strong 'stand your ground' laws, chasing down an assailant after he has fled, and beating him nearly to death will get you jail time.


    Also, it appears the assailant was 'let off' because he is brain damaged and unable to even appear in court. He did get his justice, it was just 'street justice'.

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    The headline is BS. All seems fine with this story.

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    Wow, just wow

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    Perhaps, then again his family (including children) was tied up and threatened with death. I also don't see anything about being "chased down the street" it says in his "front garden" is where they caught him. So, they were still on his property by my reading. Then there are the other two criminals who apparently got away to parts unknown. Where were they during this phase and what went through the man's mindas he was driving this one off his property?

    Even the Brits, both citizens and politicians,find this a raw deal. The sheep are restless.

    As for the brain damaged criminal with a previous record he gets away clean for an attack the court considers "serious and wicked", well, TS. He chose his line of work. Now he can eat jello and try not to dribble soup down his shirt front for the rest of his life.

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    Regular Member Hendu024's Avatar
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    I threw up in my mouth a little after reading that article. I'm sure as s%#t glad I don't live there.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    One more time: handle business yourself, NEVER dial 911, even AFTER the dust settles.
    Yeah, you're just gonna have to explain the bodies eventually... but that is funny.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Actually, in England, you would dial "999" in an emergency.

    I know what would happen if I came home to find someone in my house. My first "call" would be for assistance from Ms. Para and Mr. Hydra-Shok.

    The USA may be messed up, but at least we still have the RKBA. In Great Britian, they are actually trying to ban Airsoft guns now. Pretty soon, the People of England will be back to the longbow and the trebuchet as their only options...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Pretty soon, the People of England will be back to the longbow and the trebuchet as their only options...
    That reminds me of a quote I wish I could claim as my own: "We once had a world without guns. It was ruled by the strongest and most violent men using swords and clubs. We call it the Dark Ages."
    (Some anonymous USENET poster from back in the day.)


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    They were working on banning knives too.

    What next? Rocks, Longbows, Crossbows, Pointy Sticks, who knows?

    Actually, a couple of those are probably already illegal over there.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Actually, in England, you would dial "999" in an emergency.

    I know what would happen if I came home to find someone in my house. My first "call" would be for assistance from Ms. Para and Mr. Hydra-Shok.

    The USA may be messed up, but at least we still have the RKBA. In Great Britian, they are actually trying to ban Airsoft guns now. Pretty soon, the People of England will be back to the longbow and the trebuchet as their only options...
    I've always wanted a trebuchet!

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    ecocks wrote:
    They were working on banning knives too.

    What next? Rocks, Longbows, Crossbows, Pointy Sticks, who knows?

    Actually, a couple of those are probably already illegal over there.
    Actually you are not that far off, The UK government mandated that pint glasses used in pubs must be made of plastic, or a tempered, or specially treatedglass that will shatter into tiny pieces when broken so it cannot be used as a weapon.
    I was told that some glasses have a plastic laminate on them so there are no sharp shards , and others are tempered.
    They have also mandated that kitchen knives used in the home must have blunt tips so you cannot stab someone with it.


    I belong to a web forum based out of the UK, and I have been busting their chops about that for a few weeks now.

    Maybe the UK government will goafter sharp sticks next?
    or maybe they will start adding slatpetre to the dinking water so nothing is harder than foam rubber.

    If it wasn't so sad, and if our own legislators weren't looking for ideas there, it would almost be comical.


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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    kito109654 wrote:
    The headline is BS. All seems fine with this story.
    +1. You actually read all the way through. They chased him, bashed his skull in. He went free because they made him retarded, and no longer culpable for his actions(not exactly free...). Big no-no.


    This is why you don't hit people on the ground repeatedly in the head. You hit them repeatedly on the shoulders/back/legs as you can justify an attempt to stop him from struggling because if he were to get free you would be in great danger.

    I have posted before, however, about the effects of the fight or flight reaction. I would not be easily swayed on a jury to say these guys were culpable for the perp's injuries. I would be inclined that the perp's own actions triggered the Fight or Flight response, and he and his accomplices are therefor liable for his injuries. I would have to hear the doctors info though because I was personally able to override this in a few seconds and this looks like it took time. I could be swayed because of this, depending on testimonies.

    BTW gun-free Britain has a high rate of home invasion. See www.gunfacts.info for citation.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    I see tyranny in Britain is "alive and well". There was a reason we separated ourselves from them in the 1700's.

    The creten got less than society deserved for him to get as they (society) must now pay to continue his worthless life for only god knows how long.

    The victorious defenders of their homes, families, and lives are the victims, again, of a system that much as ours, give more rights to the criminal than the victim. The criminal invader forfeits all rights upon the first step onto anothers property with the intent to commit crime. That the criminal specifically threatened the lives of the victims only serves to highlight the fact that they were in obvious threat of loss of life or limb and had every right to deny the bas....rd any opportunity to ever place another law abiding member of society in threat.

    The saddest thing is that we, here in America, are not far behind this tyranny. How many Americans, after sucessfully defending their lives from such a threat find themselves financially ruined from the cost of defending their actions in court even when the incident occured on within their own homes and was instigated by an invading criminal with a substantial record of trips through the revolving doors of our criminal "justice" system?

    We must, as a society, stand up to our own broken system and use JURY NULLIFICATION when our law abiding citizens are dragged before the courts for defending themselves from criminals and then finding themselves arrested for any number of "crimes" which they never would have contemplated had they not been placed in the situation in the first place by the slime ball mouth breather whom they then stand accused of violating.

    I say enough is enough. It is time for the people to demand "Castle doctrine" and immunity from prosecution for "wrongs" against criminals who drive them to extraordinary acts which they would never have contemplated in the abscense of the criminals actions against them.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    all I can say is,,,GEEZ what next. Well maybe they did use excessive force, maybe they went a little too far. BUT the BG threatened to kill not only the homeowner, but his children. IN my way of thinking, he provided me with HIS death sentence. I would not be his judge, not his jury, just his executioner.
    Keep your powder dry!
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    simmonsjoe wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    The headline is BS. All seems fine with this story.
    +1. You actually read all the way through. They chased him, bashed his skull in. He went free because they made him retarded, and no longer culpable for his actions(not exactly free...). Big no-no.e invasion. See http://www.gunfacts.info for citation.
    Well, somebody had to do it.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    The biggest mistake England has made is in pretending they are still a homogenous society and culture, as they largely were right up to the 1960s. Such a culture can be understood as a big - REALLY BIG - and (mostly) happy family. There was once upon a time a tradition that the police would be armed only with truncheons and that criminals would not use firearms, and for the most part it - we have to admit - worked out.

    But now England is especially in its major metro areas as cosmopolitan as, say, Washington DC or New York City. The criminal element among the newcomers scoff at the "no guns" traditions and have armed themselves. The Brits have responded by doubling down on the old ways.

    For almost 300 years these United States have been taking in new people from every culture on earth and allowing them to sink or swim in the donnybrook of a totally free society. The alloy forged in this "melting pot" and hammered out by circumstance and luck and determination is still - despite all efforts to the contrary - the greatest nation that ever was or will be (excuse my rabid nationalism).

    England is new at this sort of thing, and boy are they being flummoxed. They still believe in their old social traditions but they have also been infected with the virus of "multiculturalism" worse than we have, and they have not only no Second Amendment to secure their right to defense, but also no First Amendment; so that the right to speak out against foolishness might be (and has been) curtailed for reasons that would be hooted out of any court in this blessed land. They are in big, big trouble because of it.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I really don't think its multi-cultrilism as the culprit. It is allowing that to trump, what is culturally accepted, or what is right. And the double standard of catering to the "sensitivities" of other cultures, while being able to bash or demonize the prevailing culture. I.E. many "ethnic" comedians, news, T.V. programs and now our government.

    I personally enjoy the company and freindship of folks from many cultures, but if you are in thepublic and are offended by something I said or did because of your "culture" I don't care.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I really don't think its multi-cultrilism as the culprit. It is allowing that to trump, what is culturally accepted, or what is right. And the double standard of catering to the "sensitivities" of other cultures, while being able to bash or demonize the prevailing culture. I.E. many "ethnic" comedians, news, T.V. programs and now our government.

    I personally enjoy the company and freindship of folks from many cultures, but if you are in thepublic and are offended by something I said or did because of your "culture" I don't care.
    Yes, and that is precisely the error the Brits have been committing and what is being attepted to foist upon us. The lack of protection of free speech in England however means that observing this detail can be classified as somehow being "hate speech" and crininally punished. The closest the Left has been able to get over here has been "Hate Crimes" AKA "murder and mayhem for the wrong reason" (as if there is a correct reason for murder and mayhem). But we are still free to question this and we cannot be forced to ****.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I really don't think its multi-cultrilism as the culprit. It is allowing that to trump, what is culturally accepted, or what is right. And the double standard of catering to the "sensitivities" of other cultures, while being able to bash or demonize the prevailing culture. I.E. many "ethnic" comedians, news, T.V. programs and now our government.

    I personally enjoy the company and freindship of folks from many cultures, but if you are in thepublic and are offended by something I said or did because of your "culture" I don't care.
    Yes, and that is precisely the error the Brits have been committing and what is being attepted to foist upon us. The lack of protection of free speech in England however means that observing this detail can be classified as somehow being "hate speech" and crininally punished. The closest the Left has been able to get over here has been "Hate Crimes" AKA "murder and mayhem for the wrong reason" (as if there is a correct reason for murder and mayhem). But we are still free to question this and we cannot be forced to ****.
    Don't forget that they label you as a hate monger for speaking out on this issue too, I.E. Rush, Hannity, Beck. I have yet to hear anything remotely racist or hateful toward other cultures from them, yet that is how they are portrayed.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Well now you see, thaat is the way the statist scumballs roll. Disagree with the "historic first black 'president'" and you are racist. Portray a conservative lady and the former chancellor of Stanford University; an accomplished concert pianist and an member of a famous church bombed by racists and who lost several playmates in that loathsome act in the vilest and foulest anti-black stereotypes and the Left hails you. Congratulate an elderly former Senator who used to be a racist on the old man's birthday and the llefties will holler for your head; but be a 90+ year-old former Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan and spout whatever the statist left feeds you and bask in their praise, even after repeatedly (and recently) using the N-word on the very Floor of the Senate.

    Vile accusations against Clarence Thomas, while Charlie Rangel gets a pass for what any Republican would be facing a criminal investigation for. The black chairman of the Republican Party gets Oreos thrown at him in public, and was denounced for using "vile references" by Harry Reid for saying that the DemonRatz are doing exactly what they are doing ie; "flipping the American People the bird".

    And let's not even mention, if you are not useful to the Left and you forget to declare ten bucks worth of income you will be pilloried and harrassed, but if you are nominated to be Seceratary of the Treasury and fail to pay ANY TAXES FOR YEARS you will be given a pass (if you will be useful) because your "expertise is sorely needed" even though you tell the Congress - and on the record at that - that the reason you did not pay was because you were such a dumbass you couldn't figure out TurboTax.

    This little game has been played for decades and mostly it has worked. But now, instead of using the game to shore up their sneaky ways; it has become an essential part of it. As such it is much more apparrent, and people both black and white are noticing it. I could go in and on and on, but there isn't enough bndwidth on this site.

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