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Thread: Harassment in Oakland County

  1. #1
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    I was harrassed by an Oakland County officer, who said he was well aware of the open carry laws, he claimed that open carry had nothing to do with the ticket, but when I confronted him about this point, he became very defensive, sometimes you know what you can't prove. I sent the following letter to our legislature, and the white house. This letter gives a pretty good description of the event.

    Hello, My name is Neil Carpenter.I have discussedseveral issues with some of our police, and they suggested that I bring these up with you.I would like to discuss some issues we are having in the state concerning someof our laws, and describe some of the problems that could be easily cleared up.Quite often, otherwise law abiding, and well meaningcitizensare being caught up in our legal system because of certainweapon free zones, and sometimes with our right to the open carry of a firearm. This right should be vigorously defended. A police friend of mine has told me of a few people he has had to deal with who, while open carrying, have gotten into their cars with the weapon, and have been charged with a crime, because when a person enters a vehicle, the weapon is considered to be legally concealed here in Michigan. Many other states do not pose this dangerous restriction on their citizens. The people we are talking about would otherwise never behave like criminals, this is a waste of our resources, tax dollars, and the valuable time of our police and courts, while putting an undue burden of fines, stress, and time loss by the person accused of such a "crime".

    I have a Michigan Concealed Weapons Permit, but I routinely practice open carry, as I want to help people to overcome their fears of the law abiding gun owner, while protecting and promoting ourrights. This practice acts as a deterrent to crime, it allows me to be at an advantage against an attacker, and it helps the police to distinguish between the law abiding, and the criminal. (no criminal is going to carry a firearm on their hip in the open, acting normally, giving up the cloak of secrecy they desire).

    I was recently open carrying in Detroit, and this stopped a group of men from doing who knows what to me, I sent all of you a letter describing these events a week or two ago.

    Last week I too was caught up in a legal issue (civil infraction) similar to the issue I mentioned above. I was watching some people fly their radio controlled airplanes with my seven year old daughter at a field owned by the Dixie Baptist Church. The problem is, that the church also owns a school. I am fighting this case because I was charged with violating Michigans concealed weapons laws by being on school property while carrying a firearm. The problem is, that the school is owned by the church, and to my knowledge does not own the property in question. Therefore I should not be guilty of breaking the law which says that a person with a CPL may only have a gun in their vehicle while picking up or dropping off their child at a school that the child currently attends. The officer who wrote me the ticket didn't even know the law, he showed up at my home two days after our initial contact to give me the ticket, as he had to research the law to even find out if a law had even been broken.

    The idea of not allowing legal permit holders in or on school grounds is a profoundly irresponsible policy to begin with, and should be immediately repealed before we wind up with another Columbine, or Virginia Tech incident of our own. Both the Columbine, and Virginia Tech shootings occurred in weapon free zones.

    There is another related issue I have become aware of through this incident. There is no standardisation given to our police concerning how they should deal with permit holder, I havespoken with, several officers about this issue, some while they were investigating meopen carrying.I have spoken with two Royal Oak policemen, two Waterford policemen, one Auburn Hills policemen, one Clarkston policeman,and at least a half dozen Oakland County Sherriffs Deputies, And all but one were respectful of my rights.

    The one who wasn't was the investigating officer for Oakland County who gave me the citation mentioned above. As I had arrived at my home, an Oakland County Sherriffs patrol car pulled up to my house, so I turned to greet him. He got out, and ordered me to the front of the car, and told me to put my hands on the hoodof his car, at which point he put me in handcuffs right in front of my 7 year old daughter. This is up to his discretion legally, but his judgement in doing so was incredibly poor, as this utterly terrified my little girl. I expect our officers to have better sense than to pull a stunt like this. He evidently wanted to make an impression on the both of us which he did, negatively. I had my daughter thinking the police were good people until then, now she says she hates cops, and wants to go to court with me to tell the judge about this. The only thing that I could say to my daughter about this, was that most cops are good people, but sometimes you get a badone, and we got a bad cop.His actions speak louder than my words.

    He knew that I had not broken any law, becausehe told me the only reason he was there was because someone had seen me get out of my car, and put my gun into my holster. I asked if this was the only reason, and he said it was.He just needed to check the situation out, and if everything was ok, then I would be on my way.

    He did let me go after he checked my gun, permit, and other things, only to return to my house TWO DAYS LATER with a ticket! Claiming that I was in violation of our concealed pistol laws because I was on school property. Which I was not! The property in question is owned by a church, not a school. By the way, he made no effort to show off by taking my gun, unload it, and put me in handcuffs again this time, as my daughter wasn't there to witness it this time.

    I believe he wanted to put me in cuffs in front of my daughter to discourage me from practicingopen carry, when I brought this up to him he got really defensive about it, saying, "what does open carry have to do with anything" I responded with, "I might ask you the same thing, you didn't have anything you could get me on, so you dig up some technicality. He explained that His job was to enforce the law. I told him that he knew good and well that I was not Scarface and he shouldn't be screwing with me. I told him that the only thing he was doing, was making the police look bad, he said sarcastically, that he would "take it under advisement" ! I was not breaking any law, and he knew it, he had to take two days to dig up something, that isn't even a valid complaint, and I am confident will be thrown out of court. I will be tied up with this for a couple of months, and could be fined $500 dollars, and could have my permit suspended for 6 months over this. I cannot afford an attorney, much less the fine, as I am on a fixed income.

    If he would spend as much time fighting crime, as he does "enforcing the law", perhaps we would all be a little better off. If this is how we fight crime these days, I can plainly see why we have so many problems.This isn't crime control, this is typical of gun control, and a complete waste of resources, and tax dollars.

    We shouldn't even need a permit to carry a gun to begin with. Our constitution guarantees the right to both keep and to bear arms. It does not say anything at all about "only in the home", or "only in certain areas". If I need a permit, then I do not have a right, I have a privilege which can be suspended, revoked, taxed, or restricted. If a crime is committed with, or without a gun, the law is not in any way impaired from effectively dealing with any given issue. Criminals do not care about permits, gun free zones, or background checks. The criminal is able to use the right to keep and bear arms, while the average citizen has to ask permission for their rights. The criminal can get guns more readily, without permission orbackground checks, they can get guns cheaper, they can get automatics, and can take them anywhere they wish. The average joe, has to pay fees, and jump through hoops, only to be restricted once permission is given to him.

    All of my other rights are "portable", for lack of a better term, and I do not have to pay for, or request permission to use them. I have freedom of speech, and I can worship Jesus Christ wherever I go, I can refuse to let a soldier sleep in my house, or even a rented camping area, I have the right to privacy wherever I go, even in my car, I have the right to not incriminate myself, wherever I go, but I have to ask permission to defend myself, and if I do, I could be sued, or charged with a crime! This makes no sense!

    Most gun control laws mean well, but end up like what I have described in this letter. They cause more harm than good, and do nothing at all to prevent crime. Some gun laws are good, and do not infringe on the rights of the individual. For example, there is a law in michigan which, one must be able to clearly see an intruder before a shooting is justifiable. This is an example of a really really good law. It makes sense, as it prevents one from accidentally shooting a family member, or a neighbor, or an investigating officer who may be in the area. I simply leave a light on in each room and outside at night to compensate for it.

    I sincerely hope that you will think about the things I have written in this letter when you propose, or vote on new legislation, and to remove ineffective, and dangerous laws from our system.

    As things are now, I, as a law abiding, permit holding citizen, am more afraid of my government than I am afraid of an armed criminal! This should not be, and I am counting on you to do something about it. I sincerely thank you all for your time.

    This type of irresponsible abuse of power is not typical of the Oakland County Sherriffs Department. Usually they are a very professional outfit.

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    So you were ticketed for openly carrying a pistol with a valid CPL on the grounds of a school?



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    You were not in violation because you did not CONCEAL at the location where you were. Though you didnt state weather or not you were concealing at the church or not.

    The law is VERY specific

    FIREARMS
    Act 372 of 1927

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.

    (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.

    (c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the professional investigator licensure act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.

    (d) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.

    (e) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.

    (f) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a member of a sheriff's posse.

    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.

    (h) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.

    (i) A state court judge or state court retired judge who is licensed under this act. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a state court retired judge to obtain and carry a letter from the judicial tenure commission stating that the state court retired judge is in good standing as authorized under section 30 of article VI of the state constitution of 1963, and rules promulgated under that section, in order to qualify under this subdivision.

    (5) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

    (a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.

    (b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

    (c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

  4. #4
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    What is the exactstatute number he cited you for violating?
    it is very possible he used the wrong staute indentifier and this could be real easy to get tossed on your initial appearance.

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    I was carrying on a property owned by a church, this church also owns a school. There is no signage on the property indicating that the property is owned by the church. There were no students using the feild at the time.

    The numbers on the ticket were : 28.4250 (a)

    : 28.4250 (e)

    What if the officer comes to court and mensions the car as being concealed?

    I must note that the officer told me that the reason he was there, was because the complaintant said they saw me get out of my car, and put my gun into my holster.

    The officer asked me if I knew which violation I had committed, I specifically asked him if the problem was because of the way I had it in the car. He said no, this was not the problem, which led me to believe that having the gun in the car with a permit on church property is perfectly legal. Apparently, it is not legal until I have permission from the church. Is this true? And does this qualify as "entrapment by estoppel"?

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    First of all, DO NOT WORRY about your CPL. My friend Mark Cortis is on the Oakland County gun board, and I believe yourtown is in Oakland. He will not allow it to be suspended if you didn't violate a law.

    Second, call Dean Greenblatt. Even if you can't afford to hire him, he will give you some suggestions. He represented theszerdi for a case of ammo, and he has offered the same to others. Worst case scenario, if you really needed a lawyer at trial, we could probably do an ammo drive if he's willing to do that again.

    Third, we had a nasty encounter with some deputies earlier this year, and Sheriff Bouchard went to great lengths to correct it. I suggest we contact him directly, because he specifically told us to come to him immediately with problems with his department.

    A written complaint about the officer, and a meeting with the Sheriff is the least we should do.

    Oh, and lastly, you'll need to FOIA all the details of this crap, whether the charges get dropped swiftly or not. (They probably will).

    If you'd like, I'd be happy to talk to you about this on the phone. PM me if you're interested.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    im seeing the word concealed alot,nothing about openly....
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    I know Mark, he's a freind of mine too!!! I took his class to get my CPL. He did refer me to Dean, we spoke for a few, and he was very helpful. He mensioned the entrapment by estoppel possibility.

    I cannot afford an attorney, which is too bad, because with his help Ill probably win, without it, Im screwed.

    What's an ammo drive?



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    How do I et in touch with Mr. Bouchard, I tried to call his secratary, so I could speak with him about this, and got no response.



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    hercprsound wrote:
    *I was carrying on a property owned by a church, this church also owns a school. There is no signage on the property indicating that the property is owned by the church. There were no students using the feild at the time.

    The numbers on the ticket were : 28.4250 (a)

    ************************* ************************* * : 28.4250 (e)

    What if the officer comes to court and mensions the car as being concealed?

    I must note that the officer told me that the reason he was there, was because the complaintant said they saw me get out of my car, and put my gun into my holster.

    The officer asked me if I knew which violation I had committed, I specifically asked him if the problem was because of the way I had it in the car. He said no, this was not the problem, which led me to believe that having the gun in the car with a permit on church property is perfectly legal. Apparently, it is not legal until I have permission from the church. Is this true? And does this qualify as "entrapment by estoppel"?
    OK, for one you are allowed to be in the pistol free zones in your vehicle with a CPL. Secondly you were not concealed when you were out on the property.

    28.425 is the law I posted above. You're definitely in the clear but I'd make sure Dean represents you. There is nothing illegal about putting your pistol in your holster nor exiting your vehicle open carrying.

    hercprsound wrote:
    He said no, this was not the problem, which led me to believe that having the gun in the car with a permit on church property is perfectly legal. Apparently, it is not legal until I have permission from the church. Is this true?
    Please READ the law I posted

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

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    Here's a question:

    I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

    So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

    You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?


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    As far as you scenario herc, I'd like to point out a few things you should do if put in this position the next time (hopefully there isn't a next time).

    DO NOT talk to the LEO! It does you no good, in fact it could create problems for you, and you could be admiting to a crime that you never commited. If you are required to disclose you are carrying concealed, then disclose, but do not talk further than that. Everything you say can and will be used AGAINST you in a court of law.

    Sounds like you were within your legal rights/privaliges in your scenario and I hope you get the best possible outcome. I agree, you need to FOIA ALL related materials to ALL of your police encounters from this situation.

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    T Vance wrote:
    Here's a question:

    I'm aware that you can carry concealed at/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

    So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

    You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
    Thats a real good question. It's pretty specific about schools. The below if very specific. You can only conceal in the parking areas is dropping off or picking up only and you are the parent/guardian. It looks like the only way not to violate that is to OC on foot.

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

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    So it sounds like in MY scenario that a person that does that is in fact violating a PFZ rule.

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    T Vance wrote:
    So it sounds like in MY scenario that a person that does that is in fact violating a PFZ rule.
    Hold on. I need to dig in to this -> used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

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    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.

    (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

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    T Vance wrote:
    Here's a question:

    I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

    So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

    You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
    In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    Here's a question:

    I'm aware that you can carry concealed*at/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

    So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

    You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
    In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos).* So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED.* OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
    Where is that? I would like to look it up but I've been unable to find it.

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    @ mike quote :

    c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

    So, this could mean anywhere ??? I. E. a feild trip? So, technicxally, the property in question, although owned by the church, NOT the shool, is considered "school property" ?

    If this is true, then couldn't anywhere the school goes with the kids be then considered "school property", such as the Detriot Zoo, or another locationduring a feild trip??? If so, how are we as gun owners supposed to know this?

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    When you cc you are more restricted at schools. If you are OC'ing you are able to roam the out side and inside with a cpl.
    As far as school goes, a private school falls under Private property law, which states private property over rules all state laws on possession. This of course would rely on a person gaining permission, first.

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    conservative85 wrote:
    * When you cc you are more restricted at schools. If you are OC'ing you are able to roam the out side and inside with a cpl.*
    * As far as school goes, a private school falls under Private property law, which states private property over rules all state laws on possession. This of course would rely on a person gaining permission, first.
    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.

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    I understand the definition of school list private along with public but, as venator has pointed out churches, and private, as well as some public schools have the discretion to allow oc, and cc.

    As some one once posted...Law does not have to make sense. It is easy to get definitions confused with law. Definitions define words, but law defines illegal actions!

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Not on this website, USA
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    2,482

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    Here's a question:

    I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

    So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

    You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
    In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
    Just one more thing I have learned from the valuable minds at MOC. Thanks V!

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
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    Post imported post

    T Vance wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    Here's a question:

    I'm aware that you can carry concealed*at/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

    So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

    You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
    In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos).* So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED.* OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
    Just one more thing I have learned from the valuable minds at MOC. Thanks V!
    I still cannot find anything out there about this exception. I'd like to see a cited.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    mikestilly wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    Here's a question:

    I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

    So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

    You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
    In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
    Just one more thing I have learned from the valuable minds at MOC. Thanks V!
    I still cannot find anything out there about this exception. I'd like to see a cited.
    For parking lot exemption scoll down to Subsection (3).

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cgv...me=mcl-28-425o



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