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Harassment in Oakland County

mikestilly

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conservative85 wrote:
  When you cc you are more restricted at schools. If you are OC'ing you are able to roam the out side and inside with a cpl. 
  As far as school goes, a private school falls under Private property law, which states private property over rules all state laws on possession. This of course would rely on a person gaining permission, first.

(b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.
 

conservative85

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I understand the definition of school list private along with public but, as venator has pointed out churches, and private, as well as some public schools have the discretion to allow oc, and cc.

As some one once posted...Law does not have to make sense. It is easy to get definitions confused with law. Definitions define words, but law defines illegal actions!
 

T Vance

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Venator wrote:
T Vance wrote:
Here's a question:

I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
Just one more thing I have learned from the valuable minds at MOC. Thanks V!
 

mikestilly

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T Vance wrote:
Venator wrote:
T Vance wrote:
Here's a question:

I'm aware that you can carry concealed at/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos).  So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED.  OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
Just one more thing I have learned from the valuable minds at MOC. Thanks V!

I still cannot find anything out there about this exception. I'd like to see a cited.
 

SpringerXDacp

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mikestilly wrote:
T Vance wrote:
Venator wrote:
T Vance wrote:
Here's a question:

I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.
Just one more thing I have learned from the valuable minds at MOC. Thanks V!

I still cannot find anything out there about this exception. I'd like to see a cited.

For parking lot exemption scoll down to Subsection (3).

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cgvmkvevwkvh4o55kqpbyial))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425o
 

hercprsound

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Thanks for pointing this out. This may be just what I need if He tries to give me a problem about the car as being concealed while on church property without prior authorisation.
 

SpringerXDacp

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hercprsound wrote:
Thanks for pointing this out. This may be just what I need if He tries to give me a problem about the car as being concealed while on church property without prior authorisation.


Also, per 28.425o:

(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

This means public or private. If a person has a CPL and is carrying concealed, said person is exempt for all parking lots under Subsection (1) of28.425o. Said person is also exempt to casino parking lots--you can not carry CC or OC in the building.

If said person has a CPL and is OC, said person can carry in all the otherwise prohibited places listed under Subsection (1) of 28.425o and Subsection (1) of 750.234d.

If said person does not have a CPL and is OC, said person can carry in the otherwise prohibited places listed under Subsection (1) of 750.234d with permission of the owner or agent.

Herc, MSP and Oakland County Sheriff's Department are fully aware of this (legal OC in CPZ's). I know that Sheriff Bouchard is quite busy--being Sheriff and running for Governor--but try to setup an appointment with him to discuss your situation.
 

ghostrider

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hercprsound wrote:
I was carrying on a property owned by a church, this church also owns a school. There is no signage on the property indicating that the property is owned by the church. There were no students using the feild at the time.

The numbers on the ticket were : 28.4250 (a)

: 28.4250 (e)

What if the officer comes to court and mensions the car as being concealed?

I must note that the officer told me that the reason he was there, was because the complaintant said they saw me get out of my car, and put my gun into my holster.

The officer asked me if I knew which violation I had committed, I specifically asked him if the problem was because of the way I had it in the car. He said no, this was not the problem, which led me to believe that having the gun in the car with a permit on church property is perfectly legal. Apparently, it is not legal until I have permission from the church. Is this true? And does this qualify as "entrapment by estoppel"?
If you were open carrying (and have a current CPL), then these are bogus charges. You really need to speak with a lawyer about this. Too often, people want to tell their side of the story. That's what LEO count on to hang people up. Don't go in trying to explain yourself. Make them build a case against you rather than help them do it.

If you were not concealing, and your lawyer can get the officer to admit it in court, then you should be in the clear since he ticketed you for conceal carry.
 

Nutczak

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it looks like you were acting legally.

The only problem I am seeing is your dialogue with the cop, You are going to need to see the notes he wrote on the citation and his written report to know how to handle this further.

This really plays into the "DO NOT TALK TO POLICE" advice given over and over in almost every thread.
By keeping your mouth shut, you are giving the police no chance of twisting your words into something that can be used against you.
This particular cop is obviously suffering from a case of "Cranial Rectalitis" and has a stiffy for people that O-C, and it looks like he got to stickit toyou.
 

Mike

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hercprsound wrote:
I sent the following letter to our legislature, and the white house. This letter gives a pretty good description of the event.
Why send this letter to the White House?

And no the letter is not helpful or desriptive - way too long.

Please take the time to write shorter letters and posts.
 

T Vance

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What about this Federal Law that says you can't be within 1000 ft of a school with a firearm?

"Title 18 U.S.C Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 922(q) known as the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995. This federal law, which is currently on the books, effectively bans all concealed carry reciprocity agreements between States, by making it illegal for any person to have a functional firearm within 1000 Feet of the property line of any Elementary or High School in our country, with very few exceptions.."
 

T Vance

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T Vance wrote:
What about this Federal Law that says you can't be within 1000 ft of a school with a firearm?

"Title 18 U.S.C Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 922(q) known as the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995. This federal law, which is currently on the books, effectively bans all concealed carry reciprocity agreements between States, by making it illegal for any person to have a functional firearm within 1000 Feet of the property line of any Elementary or High School in our country, with very few exceptions.."
NEVERMIND FOUND THIS

A third exception, is if the person possessing the firearm has a concealed carry permit issued by the State in which the school zone is located. This means that as the law is written, and as it has been interpreted by BATFE, if a person with a concealed carry permit is in any State other than the State that physically issued their permit, and they drive within 1000 feet of any K-12 school (which is impossible to avoid) with an unlocked gun, they are committing a federal crime. Violation of this law is punishable by up to five (5) years in federal prison and a conviction will bar a person from owning firearms for life
 

Nutczak

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T Vance wrote:
T Vance wrote:
What about this Federal Law that says you can't be within 1000 ft of a school with a firearm?

"Title 18 U.S.C Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 922(q) known as the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995. This federal law, which is currently on the books, effectively bans all concealed carry reciprocity agreements between States, by making it illegal for any person to have a functional firearm within 1000 Feet of the property line of any Elementary or High School in our country, with very few exceptions.."
NEVERMIND FOUND THIS

A third exception, is if the person possessing the firearm has a concealed carry permit issued by the State in which the school zone is located. This means that as the law is written, and as it has been interpreted by BATFE, if a person with a concealed carry permit is in any State other than the State that physically issued their permit, and they drive within 1000 feet of any K-12 school (which is impossible to avoid) with an unlocked gun, they are committing a federal crime. Violation of this law is punishable by up to five (5) years in federal prison and a conviction will bar a person from owning firearms for life
I was under the impression that the federal GFSZ was found to be unconstitutional, and only 2 states currently enforce the law (WI & CA) under state statutes.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
 

joshuaeberly

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Venator wrote:
T Vance wrote:
Here's a question:

I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.


not to sound like a nitpicker, but ..... where in the law does it say that permission is required to OC with a CPL on either premises?

you don't have to have "permission", you just have to avoid getting asked to leave :)
 

hercprsound

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We are forced to place such concern on these laws when real criminals dont give a flying f*** about them. This is crap.

If the politicians are so worried about following laws, we shouldn't be asking permission for anything, the state and federal constitutions are both clear, to keep and bear arms, and shall not be infringed. Whether OC, or CC, the constitution is law, and the lawmakers are not following the law, while, and by demanding we have to dick around like this.

Just look up the A2, then look up the definition of "rights", and then look up the definition of "piveleges", why can't these lawmakers put any of this togeth Sh** my seven year old knows better than this.

I just hope I can present my points in court, being a layman, and then hope the court will at least uphold enough of the law to toss this out. Otherwise, Ill be going to jail, basically for trying to be a good dad. I was trying to protect her by being armed, trying to set a good exsample by both being armed, and in being open with the LEO's and by finding something top do with her like watching these little planes fly around on a nice fall afternoon. If I get a fine, I can't pay it, Im on a fixed income, so there will be a bench warrant, and probably more fines accordingly, not being able to pay could get me locked up, which is crazy when soomeone with means could just buy their way out of it.

If this is how we fight crime inm this country, I can see why we have so much of it.

:cuss::banghead:

I'll get off my soapbox for now, but I reserve the right to get back on it at any time.
 

Venator

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xd-40 wrote:
Venator wrote:
T Vance wrote:
Here's a question:

I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.


not to sound like a nitpicker, but ..... where in the law does it say that permission is required to OC with a CPL on either premises?

you don't have to have "permission", you just have to avoid getting asked to leave :)
I meant "and" as alsoas in another option to OC. Not that you had to have it. Not much is know about this case, but my point was if the guy had permission he would be allowed to OC or CC on the property (with a CPL). Hence my argument that a LEO needs more RAS than someone having a gun in a banned place.
 

Nutczak

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hercprsound wrote:
We are forced to place such concern on these laws when real criminals don't give a flying f*** about them. This is crap.

If the politicians are so worried about following laws, we shouldn't be asking permission for anything, the state and federal constitutions are both clear, to keep and bear arms, and shall not be infringed. Whether OC, or CC, the constitution is law, and the lawmakers are not following the law, while, and by demanding we have to dick around like this.

Just look up the A2, then look up the definition of "rights", and then look up the definition of "privileges", why can't these lawmakers put any of this together Sh** my seven year old knows better than this.

Otherwise, Ill be going to jail, basically for trying to be a good dad. I was trying to protect her by being armed, trying to set a good example by both being armed, and in being open with the LEO's and by finding something top do with her like watching these little planes fly around on a nice fall afternoon. , not being able to pay could get me locked up, which is crazy when someone with means could just buy their way out of it.

If this is how we fight crime in this country, I can see why we have so much of it.

:cuss::banghead:

I'll get off my soapbox for now, but I reserve the right to get back on it at any time.

I removed a few sentences from you post which is quoted above, and keptothers.


You may want to write down what you posted, and hold on to it, Because it sounds like one hell of a greatopening argument to me!!
 
G

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Venator wrote:
xd-40 wrote:
Venator wrote:
T Vance wrote:
Here's a question:

I'm aware that you can carry concealedat/on "Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian", and that you may OC on school grounds with a CPL.

So what if you are not "dropping off" but are just on the property to use the facilities? Let me explain a little deeper...

You pull onto school grounds, and are not dropping off a student. You are carrying in your holster in your car with a CPL (technically CC). You park, get out, now you are OCing. You use their facilities (such as a track, baseball field, soccer field, etc). You go back to your car, get in (now back to CC), and drive away. I know this isn't hercprsounds scenario, but in the scenario I just described do you think in what I described you are technically breaking a rule of your CPL?
In 2003 they preempted the parking lot of the places listed as a no no for CC (except casinos). So CC in a parking lot of a school is ALLOWED. OC is allowed for OC and if he had permission from the school or church he's allowed.


not to sound like a nitpicker, but ..... where in the law does it say that permission is required to OC with a CPL on either premises?

you don't have to have "permission", you just have to avoid getting asked to leave :)
I meant "and" as alsoas in another option to OC. Not that you had to have it. Not much is know about this case, but my point was if the guy had permission he would be allowed to OC or CC on the property (with a CPL). Hence my argument that a LEO needs more RAS than someone having a gun in a banned place.
Not so fast there.

Possession of a concealed pistol is RAS.

Federal judge rules concealed carry is probable cause of criminal activity

http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atlanta-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m12d15-Federal-judge-rules-concealed-carry-is-probable-cause-of-criminal-activity?cid=exrss-Atlanta-Gun-Rights-Examiner
 
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