hercprsound
Regular Member
imported post
I was harrassed by an Oakland County officer, who said he was well aware of the open carry laws, he claimed that open carry had nothing to do with the ticket, but when I confronted him about this point, he became very defensive, sometimes you know what you can't prove. I sent the following letter to our legislature, and the white house. This letter gives a pretty good description of the event.
Hello, My name is Neil Carpenter.I have discussedseveral issues with some of our police, and they suggested that I bring these up with you.I would like to discuss some issues we are having in the state concerning someof our laws, and describe some of the problems that could be easily cleared up.Quite often, otherwise law abiding, and well meaningcitizensare being caught up in our legal system because of certainweapon free zones, and sometimes with our right to the open carry of a firearm. This right should be vigorously defended. A police friend of mine has told me of a few people he has had to deal with who, while open carrying, have gotten into their cars with the weapon, and have been charged with a crime, because when a person enters a vehicle, the weapon is considered to be legally concealed here in Michigan. Many other states do not pose this dangerous restriction on their citizens. The people we are talking about would otherwise never behave like criminals, this is a waste of our resources, tax dollars, and the valuable time of our police and courts, while putting an undue burden of fines, stress, and time loss by the person accused of such a "crime".
I have a Michigan Concealed Weapons Permit, but I routinely practice open carry, as I want to help people to overcome their fears of the law abiding gun owner, while protecting and promoting ourrights. This practice acts as a deterrent to crime, it allows me to be at an advantage against an attacker, and it helps the police to distinguish between the law abiding, and the criminal. (no criminal is going to carry a firearm on their hip in the open, acting normally, giving up the cloak of secrecy they desire).
I was recently open carrying in Detroit, and this stopped a group of men from doing who knows what to me, I sent all of you a letter describing these events a week or two ago.
Last week I too was caught up in a legal issue (civil infraction) similar to the issue I mentioned above. I was watching some people fly their radio controlled airplanes with my seven year old daughter at a field owned by the Dixie Baptist Church. The problem is, that the church also owns a school. I am fighting this case because I was charged with violating Michigans concealed weapons laws by being on school property while carrying a firearm. The problem is, that the school is owned by the church, and to my knowledge does not own the property in question. Therefore I should not be guilty of breaking the law which says that a person with a CPL may only have a gun in their vehicle while picking up or dropping off their child at a school that the child currently attends. The officer who wrote me the ticket didn't even know the law, he showed up at my home two days after our initial contact to give me the ticket, as he had to research the law to even find out if a law had even been broken.
The idea of not allowing legal permit holders in or on school grounds is a profoundly irresponsible policy to begin with, and should be immediately repealed before we wind up with another Columbine, or Virginia Tech incident of our own. Both the Columbine, and Virginia Tech shootings occurred in weapon free zones.
There is another related issue I have become aware of through this incident. There is no standardisation given to our police concerning how they should deal with permit holder, I havespoken with, several officers about this issue, some while they were investigating meopen carrying.I have spoken with two Royal Oak policemen, two Waterford policemen, one Auburn Hills policemen, one Clarkston policeman,and at least a half dozen Oakland County Sherriffs Deputies, And all but one were respectful of my rights.
The one who wasn't was the investigating officer for Oakland County who gave me the citation mentioned above. As I had arrived at my home, an Oakland County Sherriffs patrol car pulled up to my house, so I turned to greet him. He got out, and ordered me to the front of the car, and told me to put my hands on the hoodof his car, at which point he put me in handcuffs right in front of my 7 year old daughter. This is up to his discretion legally, but his judgement in doing so was incredibly poor, as this utterly terrified my little girl. I expect our officers to have better sense than to pull a stunt like this. He evidently wanted to make an impression on the both of us which he did, negatively. I had my daughter thinking the police were good people until then, now she says she hates cops, and wants to go to court with me to tell the judge about this. The only thing that I could say to my daughter about this, was that most cops are good people, but sometimes you get a badone, and we got a bad cop.His actions speak louder than my words.
He knew that I had not broken any law, becausehe told me the only reason he was there was because someone had seen me get out of my car, and put my gun into my holster. I asked if this was the only reason, and he said it was.He just needed to check the situation out, and if everything was ok, then I would be on my way.
He did let me go after he checked my gun, permit, and other things, only to return to my house TWO DAYS LATER with a ticket! Claiming that I was in violation of our concealed pistol laws because I was on school property. Which I was not! The property in question is owned by a church, not a school. By the way, he made no effort to show off by taking my gun, unload it, and put me in handcuffs again this time, as my daughter wasn't there to witness it this time.
I believe he wanted to put me in cuffs in front of my daughter to discourage me from practicingopen carry, when I brought this up to him he got really defensive about it, saying, "what does open carry have to do with anything" I responded with, "I might ask you the same thing, you didn't have anything you could get me on, so you dig up some technicality. He explained that His job was to enforce the law. I told him that he knew good and well that I was not Scarface and he shouldn't be screwing with me. I told him that the only thing he was doing, was making the police look bad, he said sarcastically, that he would "take it under advisement" ! I was not breaking any law, and he knew it, he had to take two days to dig up something, that isn't even a valid complaint, and I am confident will be thrown out of court. I will be tied up with this for a couple of months, and could be fined $500 dollars, and could have my permit suspended for 6 months over this. I cannot afford an attorney, much less the fine, as I am on a fixed income.
If he would spend as much time fighting crime, as he does "enforcing the law", perhaps we would all be a little better off. If this is how we fight crime these days, I can plainly see why we have so many problems.This isn't crime control, this is typical of gun control, and a complete waste of resources, and tax dollars.
We shouldn't even need a permit to carry a gun to begin with. Our constitution guarantees the right to both keep and to bear arms. It does not say anything at all about "only in the home", or "only in certain areas". If I need a permit, then I do not have a right, I have a privilege which can be suspended, revoked, taxed, or restricted. If a crime is committed with, or without a gun, the law is not in any way impaired from effectively dealing with any given issue. Criminals do not care about permits, gun free zones, or background checks. The criminal is able to use the right to keep and bear arms, while the average citizen has to ask permission for their rights. The criminal can get guns more readily, without permission orbackground checks, they can get guns cheaper, they can get automatics, and can take them anywhere they wish. The average joe, has to pay fees, and jump through hoops, only to be restricted once permission is given to him.
All of my other rights are "portable", for lack of a better term, and I do not have to pay for, or request permission to use them. I have freedom of speech, and I can worship Jesus Christ wherever I go, I can refuse to let a soldier sleep in my house, or even a rented camping area, I have the right to privacy wherever I go, even in my car, I have the right to not incriminate myself, wherever I go, but I have to ask permission to defend myself, and if I do, I could be sued, or charged with a crime! This makes no sense!
Most gun control laws mean well, but end up like what I have described in this letter. They cause more harm than good, and do nothing at all to prevent crime. Some gun laws are good, and do not infringe on the rights of the individual. For example, there is a law in michigan which, one must be able to clearly see an intruder before a shooting is justifiable. This is an example of a really really good law. It makes sense, as it prevents one from accidentally shooting a family member, or a neighbor, or an investigating officer who may be in the area. I simply leave a light on in each room and outside at night to compensate for it.
I sincerely hope that you will think about the things I have written in this letter when you propose, or vote on new legislation, and to remove ineffective, and dangerous laws from our system.
As things are now, I, as a law abiding, permit holding citizen, am more afraid of my government than I am afraid of an armed criminal! This should not be, and I am counting on you to do something about it. I sincerely thank you all for your time.
This type of irresponsible abuse of power is not typical of the Oakland County Sherriffs Department. Usually they are a very professional outfit.
I was harrassed by an Oakland County officer, who said he was well aware of the open carry laws, he claimed that open carry had nothing to do with the ticket, but when I confronted him about this point, he became very defensive, sometimes you know what you can't prove. I sent the following letter to our legislature, and the white house. This letter gives a pretty good description of the event.
Hello, My name is Neil Carpenter.I have discussedseveral issues with some of our police, and they suggested that I bring these up with you.I would like to discuss some issues we are having in the state concerning someof our laws, and describe some of the problems that could be easily cleared up.Quite often, otherwise law abiding, and well meaningcitizensare being caught up in our legal system because of certainweapon free zones, and sometimes with our right to the open carry of a firearm. This right should be vigorously defended. A police friend of mine has told me of a few people he has had to deal with who, while open carrying, have gotten into their cars with the weapon, and have been charged with a crime, because when a person enters a vehicle, the weapon is considered to be legally concealed here in Michigan. Many other states do not pose this dangerous restriction on their citizens. The people we are talking about would otherwise never behave like criminals, this is a waste of our resources, tax dollars, and the valuable time of our police and courts, while putting an undue burden of fines, stress, and time loss by the person accused of such a "crime".
I have a Michigan Concealed Weapons Permit, but I routinely practice open carry, as I want to help people to overcome their fears of the law abiding gun owner, while protecting and promoting ourrights. This practice acts as a deterrent to crime, it allows me to be at an advantage against an attacker, and it helps the police to distinguish between the law abiding, and the criminal. (no criminal is going to carry a firearm on their hip in the open, acting normally, giving up the cloak of secrecy they desire).
I was recently open carrying in Detroit, and this stopped a group of men from doing who knows what to me, I sent all of you a letter describing these events a week or two ago.
Last week I too was caught up in a legal issue (civil infraction) similar to the issue I mentioned above. I was watching some people fly their radio controlled airplanes with my seven year old daughter at a field owned by the Dixie Baptist Church. The problem is, that the church also owns a school. I am fighting this case because I was charged with violating Michigans concealed weapons laws by being on school property while carrying a firearm. The problem is, that the school is owned by the church, and to my knowledge does not own the property in question. Therefore I should not be guilty of breaking the law which says that a person with a CPL may only have a gun in their vehicle while picking up or dropping off their child at a school that the child currently attends. The officer who wrote me the ticket didn't even know the law, he showed up at my home two days after our initial contact to give me the ticket, as he had to research the law to even find out if a law had even been broken.
The idea of not allowing legal permit holders in or on school grounds is a profoundly irresponsible policy to begin with, and should be immediately repealed before we wind up with another Columbine, or Virginia Tech incident of our own. Both the Columbine, and Virginia Tech shootings occurred in weapon free zones.
There is another related issue I have become aware of through this incident. There is no standardisation given to our police concerning how they should deal with permit holder, I havespoken with, several officers about this issue, some while they were investigating meopen carrying.I have spoken with two Royal Oak policemen, two Waterford policemen, one Auburn Hills policemen, one Clarkston policeman,and at least a half dozen Oakland County Sherriffs Deputies, And all but one were respectful of my rights.
The one who wasn't was the investigating officer for Oakland County who gave me the citation mentioned above. As I had arrived at my home, an Oakland County Sherriffs patrol car pulled up to my house, so I turned to greet him. He got out, and ordered me to the front of the car, and told me to put my hands on the hoodof his car, at which point he put me in handcuffs right in front of my 7 year old daughter. This is up to his discretion legally, but his judgement in doing so was incredibly poor, as this utterly terrified my little girl. I expect our officers to have better sense than to pull a stunt like this. He evidently wanted to make an impression on the both of us which he did, negatively. I had my daughter thinking the police were good people until then, now she says she hates cops, and wants to go to court with me to tell the judge about this. The only thing that I could say to my daughter about this, was that most cops are good people, but sometimes you get a badone, and we got a bad cop.His actions speak louder than my words.
He knew that I had not broken any law, becausehe told me the only reason he was there was because someone had seen me get out of my car, and put my gun into my holster. I asked if this was the only reason, and he said it was.He just needed to check the situation out, and if everything was ok, then I would be on my way.
He did let me go after he checked my gun, permit, and other things, only to return to my house TWO DAYS LATER with a ticket! Claiming that I was in violation of our concealed pistol laws because I was on school property. Which I was not! The property in question is owned by a church, not a school. By the way, he made no effort to show off by taking my gun, unload it, and put me in handcuffs again this time, as my daughter wasn't there to witness it this time.
I believe he wanted to put me in cuffs in front of my daughter to discourage me from practicingopen carry, when I brought this up to him he got really defensive about it, saying, "what does open carry have to do with anything" I responded with, "I might ask you the same thing, you didn't have anything you could get me on, so you dig up some technicality. He explained that His job was to enforce the law. I told him that he knew good and well that I was not Scarface and he shouldn't be screwing with me. I told him that the only thing he was doing, was making the police look bad, he said sarcastically, that he would "take it under advisement" ! I was not breaking any law, and he knew it, he had to take two days to dig up something, that isn't even a valid complaint, and I am confident will be thrown out of court. I will be tied up with this for a couple of months, and could be fined $500 dollars, and could have my permit suspended for 6 months over this. I cannot afford an attorney, much less the fine, as I am on a fixed income.
If he would spend as much time fighting crime, as he does "enforcing the law", perhaps we would all be a little better off. If this is how we fight crime these days, I can plainly see why we have so many problems.This isn't crime control, this is typical of gun control, and a complete waste of resources, and tax dollars.
We shouldn't even need a permit to carry a gun to begin with. Our constitution guarantees the right to both keep and to bear arms. It does not say anything at all about "only in the home", or "only in certain areas". If I need a permit, then I do not have a right, I have a privilege which can be suspended, revoked, taxed, or restricted. If a crime is committed with, or without a gun, the law is not in any way impaired from effectively dealing with any given issue. Criminals do not care about permits, gun free zones, or background checks. The criminal is able to use the right to keep and bear arms, while the average citizen has to ask permission for their rights. The criminal can get guns more readily, without permission orbackground checks, they can get guns cheaper, they can get automatics, and can take them anywhere they wish. The average joe, has to pay fees, and jump through hoops, only to be restricted once permission is given to him.
All of my other rights are "portable", for lack of a better term, and I do not have to pay for, or request permission to use them. I have freedom of speech, and I can worship Jesus Christ wherever I go, I can refuse to let a soldier sleep in my house, or even a rented camping area, I have the right to privacy wherever I go, even in my car, I have the right to not incriminate myself, wherever I go, but I have to ask permission to defend myself, and if I do, I could be sued, or charged with a crime! This makes no sense!
Most gun control laws mean well, but end up like what I have described in this letter. They cause more harm than good, and do nothing at all to prevent crime. Some gun laws are good, and do not infringe on the rights of the individual. For example, there is a law in michigan which, one must be able to clearly see an intruder before a shooting is justifiable. This is an example of a really really good law. It makes sense, as it prevents one from accidentally shooting a family member, or a neighbor, or an investigating officer who may be in the area. I simply leave a light on in each room and outside at night to compensate for it.
I sincerely hope that you will think about the things I have written in this letter when you propose, or vote on new legislation, and to remove ineffective, and dangerous laws from our system.
As things are now, I, as a law abiding, permit holding citizen, am more afraid of my government than I am afraid of an armed criminal! This should not be, and I am counting on you to do something about it. I sincerely thank you all for your time.
This type of irresponsible abuse of power is not typical of the Oakland County Sherriffs Department. Usually they are a very professional outfit.
