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Thread: Process for changing County Codes for Fairfax

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    http://library1.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew

    Section 30-3-6. Physical facilities, equipment and operation.

    ...(k)Firearms shall be stored unloaded and apart from ammunition. Firearms and ammunition shall be stored in a locked area with keys out of reach of children.

    It has come to my attention that FFC FD isn't always performing inspections in a uniform way. Someone I know recently was made aware of being out of compliance with this code. I understand the intent especially with a safe that has a primary securing method of keys only. Newer safes utilize spinning combination dials, keypads, or finger print recognition. I would like to try and get this section of code modified for this person to either have it re-worded or include an exception that firearms may be loaded as long as a keyless storage container is used.

    Feedback?


    Edit - I am in the process of asking the county for assistance but I didn't know if anyone here had tried to do this in the past.

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    bohdi wrote:
    http://library1.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew

    Section 30-3-6. Physical facilities, equipment and operation.

    ...(k)Firearms shall be stored unloaded and apart from ammunition. Firearms and ammunition shall be stored in a locked area with keys out of reach of children.

    It has come to my attention that FFC FD isn't always performing inspections in a uniform way. Someone I know recently was made aware of being out of compliance with this code. I understand the intent especially with a safe that has a primary securing method of keys only. Newer safes utilize spinning combination dials, keypads, or finger print recognition. I would like to try and get this section of code modified for this person to either have it re-worded or include an exception that firearms may be loaded as long as a keyless storage container is used.

    Feedback?


    Edit - I am in the process of asking the county for assistance but I didn't know if anyone here had tried to do this in the past.
    How is this entire section (k) not invalidated by preemption?

    ...governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute.
    Sounds to me like your efforts should be redirected.

    TFred

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    TFred wrote:
    bohdi wrote:
    http://library1.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew

    Section 30-3-6. Physical facilities, equipment and operation.

    ...(k)Firearms shall be stored unloaded and apart from ammunition. Firearms and ammunition shall be stored in a locked area with keys out of reach of children.

    It has come to my attention that FFC FD isn't always performing inspections in a uniform way. Someone I know recently was made aware of being out of compliance with this code. I understand the intent especially with a safe that has a primary securing method of keys only. Newer safes utilize spinning combination dials, keypads, or finger print recognition. I would like to try and get this section of code modified for this person to either have it re-worded or include an exception that firearms may be loaded as long as a keyless storage container is used.

    Feedback?


    Edit - I am in the process of asking the county for assistance but I didn't know if anyone here had tried to do this in the past.
    How is this entire section (k) not invalidated by preemption?

    ...governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute.
    Sounds to me like your efforts should be redirected.

    TFred
    My thought exactly. Preemption covers storage. Don't change itRemove it!
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    I sort of thought that myself but am not sure how that applies to a person operating a daycare business out of their house, which is what this section of the County Code applies to. If you run that type of business, you may be inspected at anytime by the Firemarshall. This section of code is part of that inspection.

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    The way i read § 15.2-915 it seems pretty clear that the code in question can not legally be enforced. I agree with TFred, it should be removed from the books.

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    bohdi wrote:
    I sort of thought that myself but am not sure how that applies to a person operating a daycare business out of their house, which is what this section of the County Code applies to. If you run that type of business, you may be inspected at anytime by the Firemarshall. This section of code is part of that inspection.
    Sure... but the preemption code doesn't say "except if you are being inspected by the fire marshall."

    Etc.

    Now I don't have a problem at all if the fire marshall wants to recommend that operators of daycare centers store their firearms safely. I would hope that operators of daycare centers would already be doing that. But it appears that any local fire codes mandating any type of firearm storage are simply illegal.

    TFred


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    Yeah, I'm not a lawyer but I'd have to agree with that. Especially considering the county codes were written in 1976. Thanks for the feed back.

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    bohdi wrote:
    I sort of thought that myself but am not sure how that applies to a person operating a daycare business out of their house, which is what this section of the County Code applies to. If you run that type of business, you may be inspected at anytime by the Firemarshall. This section of code is part of that inspection.
    I think you can safely ignore the county code. You have an absolute defense at trial if anyone were ever dumb enough to charge you with a violation of that ordinance.

    Besides, it's a crime in Virginia to have guns that are not secured when children under the age of fourteen are present.

    § 18.2-56.2. Allowing access to firearms by children; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to recklessly leave a loaded, unsecured firearm in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of any child under the age of fourteen. Any person violating the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor. ...
    Besides, the word "key" can be interpreted pretty loosely - the combination of a combination lock is the "key", and if it's stored only in your head, that satisfies the ordinance.

    Get whatever kind of safe seems best for you, especially given the nature of your business, and use that.
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    § 18.2-56.2. Allowing access to firearms by children; penalty.


    So is this like a delay of game, or the 15 yard personal foul variety?

    Safe is already in place for this person. I am helping them ghost write a request to the county FD and work with the county department regulating home child care businesses.

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    I'm still working this issue and came across the county org chart. I am posting it here because at least on paper, it shows someone, somewhere, at sometime understood who they worked for

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    TFred wrote:
    bohdi wrote:
    I sort of thought that myself but am not sure how that applies to a person operating a daycare business out of their house, which is what this section of the County Code applies to. If you run that type of business, you may be inspected at anytime by the Firemarshall. This section of code is part of that inspection.
    Sure... but the preemption code doesn't say "except if you are being inspected by the fire marshall."

    Etc.

    Now I don't have a problem at all if the fire marshall wants to recommend that operators of daycare centers store their firearms safely. I would hope that operators of daycare centers would already be doing that. But it appears that any local fire codes mandating any type of firearm storage are simply illegal.

    TFred
    Let us be careful here. Does the fire marshall have state authority or local?
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    County

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    Then **** that law.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    I've received word that the county attorney is now looking into the matter. I guess that is what happens when you shotgun it to the entire chain from the Fire Chief all the way up to each of the Board of Supervisors

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    This question might require a different thread - but I just noticed this

    How does this section of state code

    "§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization."

    Not over ride this section of state code

    § 18.2-56.2. Allowing access to firearms by children; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to recklessly leave a loaded, unsecured firearm in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of any child under the age of fourteen. Any person violating the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor. ...


    Is it due to the construction or enumeration of the statues? Meaning because 18 comes later 15 doesn't apply?

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    bohdi wrote:
    This question might require a different thread - but I just noticed this

    How does this section of state code

    "§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization."

    Not over ride this section of state code

    § 18.2-56.2. Allowing access to firearms by children; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to recklessly leave a loaded, unsecured firearm in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of any child under the age of fourteen. Any person violating the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor. ...


    Is it due to the construction or enumeration of the statues? Meaning because 18 comes later 15 doesn't apply?
    It's much simpler than that, but in order to see it, you highlighted the wrong part. See what I highlighted and you will understand. 56.2 is "other than those expressly authorized by statute".

    TFred


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    bohdi wrote:
    This question might require a different thread - but I just noticed this

    How does this section of state code

    "§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization."

    Not over ride this section of state code

    § 18.2-56.2. Allowing access to firearms by children; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to recklessly leave a loaded, unsecured firearm in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of any child under the age of fourteen. Any person violating the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor. ...


    Is it due to the construction or enumeration of the statues? Meaning because 18 comes later 15 doesn't apply?
    The order in which statutes appeaar in the Code of Virginia has nothing to do with ahigher number "overriding" a lower numbered statute.

    18.2-56.2 criminalizes the act of recklessly endangering a minor child under the age of 14by leaving an unsecured firearm that the minor child under 14 did in fact access and endanger said child's life or limb - in other words the kid got the gun and either waved it about or shot himself or anyone else.

    The county should have no business telling you how to go about preventing yourself from becoming a criminal by storing your gun any specific way -- unless the county is willing to assume all liability if something happens even though you stored the gun in accordance with their rule. Since we know that will never happen, the rule is, besides a violation of 18.2-915, merely "feel-good" legislation.

    Hopefully the County Attorney will see the county code violates preemption and recommend the rule to repealed. If not, a lawsuit may be needed.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

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    TFred - Got it, thanks. That makes sense.

    Skid - you had me confused with your response, and that is probably my fault. I had bolded the section for a different reason - highlighting the state statute to show the difference between FFC code and VA State. Both of what I posted in the "new question" were state statues.

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    +1
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    Please note § 18.2-56.2 Doesn't list any way you must secure it. It only tells you what you cannot do. It doesn't say you have to unload your firearm, where you must store it, or anything else.

    If your firearm is loaded and in a proper holster, that is secure in any reasonable persons eyes.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Right, and again, the whole issue revolves around two parts:

    1) Fairfax County Code has this in it

    2) These twoparts from theFairfax County Code is in the Fire Marshalls checklist as bullet points for day care providers - Health and Safety inspection sheet.

    Not all Fire Marshalls will fail a day care provider, a HOME day care provider. Some will ignore it, some won't. It's that inconsistency that is part of the problem. If the wording on the check list were removed, no problem. However, if one is going to raise a stink that far, one ought to go all the way for the cause right?

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    IANAL, but it would seem to me that the only thing the Fairfax County code could say and still be in compliance with § 15.2-915 would have to be directly traceable back to § 18.2-56.2.

    So instead of the current: (k) Firearms shall be stored unloaded and apart from ammunition. Firearms and ammunition shall be stored in a locked area with keys out of reach of children.

    it would need to be worded something like: (k) Firearms shall not be recklessly left loaded and unsecured in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of any child under the age of fourteen.

    That wording is directly traceable to the state code.

    Who knows what "recklessly" means though?

    The interesting thing about this is that it prohibits any specific requirement for a storage device, and so it removes the whole requirement from the purview of a building inspector, unless they just happen to notice a firearm "recklessly left loaded and unsecured".

    TFred


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    TFred - sounds like changing it would be the correct answer to reflect what the statue says.

    They question is asked, and if affirmative, an inspection of where the firearms are located/stored is done. "Are there any firearms in the house?" to make sure the storage is in compliance with county code.

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    I'm late to the conversation and can't contribute much. But, I would like to chip in one thought.

    This is one of those subjects that can give the anti-gunners an opening. For example, "Omigod! Those open carry guys want to get rid of the ordinance protecting daycare kids from guns!!!!!"

    While we certainly don't want children injured by an unsafely stored firearm; the anti-gunners aren't going to credit that attitude to us.

    I'm of the opinion that public discussion, or discussion with the county, should include commentary to closedoors on anti-gunners twisting our purpose. For example, an express declaration of our stance that we are not about recklessly exposing children to guns.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Citizen wrote:
    I'm late to the conversation and can't contribute much. But, I would like to chip in one thought.

    This is one of those subjects that can give the anti-gunners an opening. For example, "Omigod! Those open carry guys want to get rid of the ordinance protecting daycare kids from guns!!!!!"

    While we certainly don't want children injured by an unsafely stored firearm; the anti-gunners aren't going to credit that attitude to us.

    I'm of the opinion that public discussion, or discussion with the county, should include commentary to closedoors on anti-gunners twisting our purpose. For example, an express declaration of our stance that we are not about recklessly exposing children to guns.
    I think that's always a good idea.

    I have not had the opportunity to engage any public body for such a reason, but if I were to do so, I would simply write a letter to the body as a whole (I assume the staff would provide copies to each individual member), pointing out that their current code is in contradiction with state code, which exposes them to litigation that they would almost certainly lose, and in doing so, be further exposed to liability for court costs and all reasonable attorney fees incurred by the plaintiffs in such a case.

    For this one, I would probably even suggest the change in wording, traceable back to the section we've just been talking about.

    Most of these folks do not intend to break laws, this one is probably an oversight, left from before 915 came about.

    Now if they tell you to go suck an egg... well then it's time to take the gloves off.

    TFred


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