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Thread: oc in glasgow or tompkinsville?

  1. #1
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    i was just wondering if anyone has oc in glasgow or tompkinsville?, i carry around my home area but i live in a rual area of monroe countyand seeing a gun here is no biggie. i was told by tompkinsville police that anywhere public was ok or any buisness that didn't care. however my sister inlaw who lives in glasgow said they don't allow it, i told her they can't stop me in public. i called the police and had a interesting talk with them, they said if i carried and someone complained that it bothered them that i would get one chance to put my gun in the glove box of my car. if i refused then they could arrest me for disturbing the peace. can they do that?, i didn't think acity could stop open carry. now it was the lady that answered the phone who told me this, as all officers were out at the moment. so has anyone carried in these towns? just wondering how it went. not to bothered about tompkinsville after the nice talk with their police but still wondering if anyone has carried there, i'm only about 20 minutes away from them. i'm about 40 minutes away from glasgow, and with my wife's family there i would like to know if glasgow would really try and stop open carry. thanks for any help.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    This is not legal advice, and I do not give any. This is my personal opinion.

    Search for "Disorderly Conduct" on these forums, under Kentucky only.

    The woman is wrong about "disturbing the peace", period. First off, "disturbing the peace" does not exist Kentucky Revised Statutes, to the best of my knowledge. It may exist in other states, but not in Kentucky. The only thing that would apply here is "Disorderly Conduct", as shown below.

    Secondly, I have not heard of any precedent for "disorderly conduct" for just open carrying. What you do while open carrying, however, could make the difference between no charge, or a "disorderly conduct" charge. Example: If you walk around with your hand on the holstered gun, then that could be perceived as "threatening behavior".

    However, a charge of disorderly conduct for simply open carrying is not justified. I've been told that getting such a charge dropped in court for open carrying would be quite easy, although I don't know what that process is.

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/525-00/055.PDF

    525.055 Disorderly conduct in the first degree.

    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the first degree when he or she:
    (a) In a public place and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly creating a risk thereof:
    1. Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    2. Makes unreasonable noise; or
    3. Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose; and

    I believe the police, and any prosecutor would first need to prove that you had "intent" to cause alarm, or anything stated in (a) above. #1 probably does not apply here, unless your behavior is somehow threatening. Open carrying does not fit that criteria, since it is a protected right, and is a "legitimate purpose", as self defense.

    The simple act of carrying a holstered gun openly is a recognized right supported by court precedent (Search for Holland vs Commonwealth in the Kentucky forum here ).

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/525-00/060.PDF

    525.060 Disorderly conduct in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the second degree when in a public place and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly creating a risk thereof, he:
    (a) Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    (b) Makes unreasonable noise;
    (c) Refuses to obey an official order to disperse issued to maintain public safety in dangerous proximity to a fire, hazard, or other emergency; or
    (d) Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    boomer92266 wrote:
    i was just wondering if anyone has oc in glasgow or tompkinsville?, i carry around my home area but i live in a rual area of monroe countyand seeing a gun here is no biggie. i was told by tompkinsville police that anywhere public was ok or any buisness that didn't care. however my sister inlaw who lives in glasgow said they don't allow it, i told her they can't stop me in public. i called the police and had a interesting talk with them, they said if i carried and someone complained that it bothered them that i would get one chance to put my gun in the glove box of my car. if i refused then they could arrest me for disturbing the peace. can they do that?, i didn't think acity could stop open carry. now it was the lady that answered the phone who told me this, as all officers were out at the moment. so has anyone carried in these towns? just wondering how it went. not to bothered about tompkinsville after the nice talk with their police but still wondering if anyone has carried there, i'm only about 20 minutes away from them. i'm about 40 minutes away from glasgow, and with my wife's family there i would like to know if glasgow would really try and stop open carry. thanks for any help.
    Also, it's not up to the police whether or not they will "allow" it, or not. That mentality is just disturbing. Only the Kentucky state legislature and the Federal government, regulates gun laws in Kentucky. Police are to only enforce the laws.

    You may or may not be harassed by police departments in your area. It's your job to know your rights. Police don't always know the laws that pertain to any given situation. That's what the courts are for. I think they only learn what they need to know, according to some departmental policy at the time.

    Again, I don't believe there is a "disturbing the peace" statute, only "disorderly conduct". I've been told repeatedly here that it does not apply in the case of open carrying, since it is a constitutionally protected right in Kentucky.

    Due to state preemption laws, cities cannot pass ordinances that are in conflict with state law, regarding gun laws. I cannot find the statute at the moment. Maybe someone else can post it here.

    While I generally recommend doing what police ask of you, it's up to the individual to stand up for, and defend their rights in court if needed. If such a case occurred, and you choose not to put the gun in the glovebox, per their demands, I believe you could be detained or arrested. The demand to put the gun in the glovebox could also be a bluff on their part. The woman you spoke to doesn't know any different, as she is only citing the policy she knows. That policy may or may not be lawful. It's your responsibility to know your rights, and they are aware that most people do not. Many unethical LEOs use this to their advantage, and bully people around. Do not argue with them, and most importantly do not resist.

    The court could find that the arrest or detainment was illegal, and the city may be liable for civil pentalties, payable directly to you for violation of your rights.

    Again, I am not a lawyer, and this is NOT legal advice. Perhaps others can contribute to the answer here. I know of one other case where someone was asked to put their openly carried gun in the glovebox, or face arrest. He chose to comply, so we don't know what would have happened if he had refused.

    IMPORTANT: Lookup "Flex your rights" and "Don't talk to the police" on youtube, and watch those videos. Purchase them, and watch them over and over until you are well versed in handling police encounters. Until then, I would avoid open carrying in areas you suspect police will harass you.

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    US Code Title 42 Chapter 21 Subchapter I 1983 Civil action for deprivation of rights
    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

    DEFINITION FOR UNDER COLOR OF STATUTE - Covers not only acts done by an official under a State law, but also acts done by an official under any ordinance of a county or municipality of the State, as well as acts done under any regulation issued by any State or County or Municipal official, and even acts done by an official under color of some State or local custom.To act "under color of statute" means to act beyond the bounds of lawful authority, but in such a manner that the unlawful acts were done while the official was purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his official duties. In other words, the unlawful acts must consist of an abuse or misuse of power which is possessed by the official only because he is an official.A person may be found guilty even though he was not an official or employee of the State, or of any county, city, or other governmental unit if the essential elements of the offense charged have been established and the person was a willful participant with the state or its agents in the doing of such acts.

    "Misuse of power, possessed by virtue of state law and made possible only because the wrongdoer is clothed with the authority of state law, is action taken `under color of' statute." United States v. Classic, 313 U.S. 299, 326 (1941)

    KRS 65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
    No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.
    Effective: July 13, 1984
    History: Created 1984 Ky. Acts ch. 42, sec. 1, effective July 13, 1984.

    Some popular charges (I've heard), that police like to use to justify an arrest for open carry.

    KRS 525.040 Inciting to riot.
    (1) A person is guilty of inciting to riot when he incites or urges five (5) or more persons to create or engage in a riot.
    (2) Inciting to riot is a Class A misdemeanor.
    Effective: January 1, 1975
    History: Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 214, effective January 1, 1975.

    KRS 525.020 Riot in the first degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of riot in the first degree when:
    (a) He knowingly participates in a riot; and
    (b) In the course of and as a result of such riot a person other than one (1) of the participants suffers physical injury or substantial property damage occurs.
    (2) Riot in the first degree is a Class D felony.
    Effective: January 1, 1975
    History: Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 212, effective January 1, 1975.

    KRS 525.030 Riot in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of riot in the second degree when he knowingly participates in a riot.
    (2) Riot in the second degree is a Class A misdemeanor.
    Effective: January 1, 1975
    History: Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 213, effective January 1, 1975.

    KRS 525.055 Disorderly conduct in the first degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the first degree when he or she:
    (a) In a public place and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly creating a risk thereof:
    1. Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    2. Makes unreasonable noise; or
    3. Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose; and
    (b) Acts in a way described in paragraph (a) of this subsection within three hundred (300) feet of a:
    1. Cemetery during a funeral or burial;
    2. Funeral home during the viewing of a deceased person;
    3. Funeral procession;
    4. Funeral or memorial service; or
    5. Building in which a funeral or memorial service is being conducted; and
    (c) Acts in a way described in paragraph (a) of this subsection at any point in time between one (1) hour prior to the commencement of an event specified in paragraph (b) of this subsection and one (1) hour following its conclusion; and
    (d) Knows that he or she is within three hundred (300) feet of an occasion described in paragraph (b) of this subsection.
    (2) Disorderly conduct in the first degree is a Class A misdemeanor.
    Effective: June 26, 2007
    History: Amended 2007 Ky. Acts ch. 107, sec. 2, effective June 26, 2007. -- Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 50, sec. 1, effective March 27, 2006; and ch. 51, sec. 1, effective March 27, 2006.
    Legislative Research Commission Note (3/27/2006). This section was created by 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 50, sec. 1, and 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 51, sec. 1, which are substantially identical and have been codified together.

    KRS 525.060 Disorderly conduct in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the second degree when in a public place and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly creating a risk thereof, he:
    (a) Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    (b) Makes unreasonable noise;
    (c) Refuses to obey an official order to disperse issued to maintain public safety in dangerous proximity to a fire, hazard, or other emergency; or
    (d) Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose.
    (2) Disorderly conduct in the second degree is a Class B misdemeanor.
    Effective: March 27, 2006
    History: Amended 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 50, sec. 2, effective March 27, 2006; and ch. 51, sec. 2, effective March 27, 2006. -- Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 216, effective January 1, 1975.
    Legislative Research Commission Note (3/27/2006). This section was amended by 2006 Ky. Acts chs. 50 and 51, which are identical and have been codified together.

    None of the above applies when your just going about normal everyday activities

    Kentucky Constitution Section 1
    Rights of life, liberty, worship, pursuit of safety and happiness, free speech, acquiring and protecting property, peaceable assembly, redress of grievances, bearing arms.

    All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned:

    First: The right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties.

    Second: The right of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences.

    Third: The right of seeking and pursuing their safety and happiness.

    Fourth: The right of freely communicating their thoughts and opinions.

    Fifth: The right of acquiring and protecting property.

    Sixth: The right of assembling together in a peaceable manner for their common good, and of applying to those invested with the power of government for redress of grievances or other proper purposes, by petition, address or remonstrance.

    Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

    Text as Ratified on: August 3, 1891, and revised September 28, 1891.
    History: Not yet amended.

    Hope that helps, keep in mind a police officer may arrest you at any time for any reason he THINKS is within the discharge of his duties, even if he's an idiot. Except for reasons defined in

    KRS 503.085 Justification and criminal and civil immunity for use of permitted force --
    Exceptions.

    (1) A person who uses force as permitted in KRS 503.050, 503.055, 503.070, and
    503.080 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution
    and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom the force
    was used is a peace officer, as defined in KRS 446.010, who was acting in the
    performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself
    in accordance with any applicable law, or the person using force knew or reasonably
    should have known that the person was a peace officer. As used in this subsection,
    the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and
    charging or prosecuting the defendant.




    Other than those reasons, they can arrest you even if they are wrong, however when it comes to court the charges will not stick and you can then file a civil action against the police officer and his/her department. Most importantly if you are having a bad encounter, DO NOT loose your cool and start yelling at the police officer. The dispatcher doesn't know what she's talking about, ignore her.

    Feel free to questions about the material that your unsure of the meaning. We want you to exercise your rights confidently.

    Here's a link you'll find helpful for learning, although the search engine is the worst I've ever seen.


    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statrev/frontpg.htm



  5. #5
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    Good catch Statesman, I forgot about the Holland vs Commonwealth case law.

    Personally, if a LEO asked me to put my gun in my glove box, I would refuse to do so. They CANNOT deprive you of your rights even if it makes someone else feel uncomfortable. I would kindly inform the LEO of such and at that point ask if I'm being detained or arrested and would continue to respond with the same statement to any response he had after that. Because at that point you have established with the LEO that you know your rights and that alone can be enough to get them to back off. Asking the LEO if your being detained or arrested is basically warning the LEO, in non-aggressive terms that they are coming close to breaking the law themselves. Now he might go on a power trip and arrest me, but in court I would win.

    IMO, if your scared of being arrested for exercising your rights, you don't deserve to have them. A night in jail will not kill you even if it goes that far, a LEO unsure of the validity of their actions will radio their superiors to ask and it only takes one to stand up and set the local LE straight.



  6. #6
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    It would be interesting to have access to some sort of class that formally instructs people as to their rights in Kentucky, and how to handle police encounters like the OP described. Open Carry 101.

  7. #7
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    Right on Statesman! I'd go to that class!!!

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