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Thread: Must conceal or be scorned

  1. #1
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    Just some background. I got my first .22 rifle when was 9. We always had guns in my childhoodhome. I played cowboys and indians, cops and robbers when I was a kid. I got an FID card when I turned 18. We've had my old rifes and a Mossberg500 locked up in a gun case in my family house for the last10 years, but never used themas we live in the city now. I'm 42. Irecently got my LTC in MAand bought a S&W 442andran into a big problem with carrying. My 5 year-old son, like most boys I consider normal, likes to play guns and bad guys. He always did even before my LTC. He always provides toy guns for his friends. He bought a $1 toy rifle at the Dollar store for his best friend so he would stop taking away his gun. His friend's mother told my wife no to the gun. She wants the gun play to end. She said it is not normal. Sooooo, my wife, who never grew up around guns andis terrified of them, really lambasted me for open carrying in the house and my son's gun play. She said it teaches my son badbehavior (playing guns and bad guys)whichcauses other parents to avoid my son. Now, if these people knew I carried, that would end many of my son's friendships. Forget about open carrying. I can't even concieve of that and the social consequences for my wife and son. I don't care what people say or think about me personally. The people in my neighborhood wouldnever let their kids near our house if they knew I carried. So, not only do I have to conceal in public, but I also have to conceal from my family. I never thought my son and wife would lose friends as a consequence of my carrying a handgun. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated, just don't suggest I hand out flyers orinfo cards to my neighbors. Remember, I live in MA. You can't change these people.

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    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    I don't know what suggestion I could offer. It seems that you have already made up your mind to CC. You state that you could loose friends and upset family. So really it's all about what you choose.

    I will say this. Don't think I'm harping on you because I'm not. For me this isa personal choice.

    I do not let my children play with toy guns. I teach them to respect firearms. I am teaching them firearm safety. Telling a child to not play with guns and then handing them a toy rifle or pistol to go play with defeats the purpose in my mind.

    My children are four and three. We practice shooting a BB rifle. I teach them and make them follow the same safety rules as if it were a .308.

    I let my kids touch hold my carry pistol when they ask. (unloaded of course). We go over the various parts of the pistol and the don'ts of safety.

    They know that they do not touch any type of firearm without my permission. I've tested them a few times by leaving an unloaded firearm where they are sure to find it. I point the video camera at where the firearm is and wait for them to come tell me that there is a gun at X location. I then look at the tape to see if they messed with it. Not once have they touched it. As soon as they see it they come to get me.

    How many kids that are allowed to play with toy guns and have no interaction with real guns do you think would produce the same result?
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
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    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    yea its a hippie dominated world we live in these days... unfortunately people are happier in there safe little peace thoughts than actually trying to understand what is happening in this world and how to prevent bad things from happening. just conceal dude what else can you do? me personally, if i had my whole block against me for liking guns i sure as hell wouldnt be helping them in their time of crisis. thats what the police are for right

    just mind your own, no big deal. let the sheeple live in their fantasy world while you keep your family safe

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    Since I am not an east-coast person, and I have never even visited that area of the country I have no idea what you mean by "I live in MA, you can't change these people.
    The closest I have seen to someone from MA is the current police chief in the city of Milwaukee WI. And he is an anti-2A ***** that ordered the uniformed officers (that he called "His troops") to violently violate peoples rights by drawing a firearm on Open-Carriers and "forcing them to the ground to disarm them so they could figure out f they had rights"

    (I wonder what you and the wife had in common to decide to spend the rest of your lives together if you were not aware of her hoplophobia when you got married).

    Maybe you need to teach a little history to your family in a passive manner by framing a copy of the US constitution and hanging it on the wall of your home? get her a subscription to the NRA publication "American freedoms", she may have an epiphany reading the "Armed Citizen" section. Teach her to shoot, get her a handgun to protect herself and your son, help her through the permitting process in your state so she can carry when you are not available to act as sole protector.

    Have you taught your child to respect guns, and explained that he is never ever to touch your gun without your direct permission and supervision, and laid out that it is not a toy and what can andwhat will happen if he uses it as a toy.
    Maybe some quality time at a shooting range with a small-caliber rifle or shotgun may make him understand the situation a little better. In the world of video games, they just need to hit the reset button and averyone comes alive again, make sure he knows that does not happen in real life/
    I had the difficult task of trying to get my GF's mentally retarded son to understand that guns are not toys. You think a normal child is going to be tough, try doing it with someone with an IQ less than 55 points that just does not understand simple concepts no matter how much you try to pound it into their head!
    I took him to the range, I helped him hold and aim my 12GA with a 1-ounce brenneke slug and turkey loadsand helped him shoot a few items so the destructionthe shotscaused was unmistakable. (make sure the gun is not tight to his shoulder so there is a little pain involved too, trust me, it helps get the point across better)



    I would teach the kid proper respect for firearms, and just plan to become "That Family down the road that lets their kid play with toy guns" To hell with what others may think! What is more important to you, holding up outward appearances, or being able to protect your family from harm?



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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    You have to do what you have to do, but I would not change my carry habits to satisfy people who would not be convinced to my point of view pro or con. Frankly, you and you kid might be better off if he doesn't associate with some of your neighbors or their spawn.

    I'm just saying.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Nutczak wrote:
    Since I am not an east-coast person, and I have never even visited that area of the country I have no idea what you mean by "I live in MA, you can't change these people.
    They had the same senator for 46 years...if that tells you anything... :P
    States donĺt have rights. People do.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    mrjam2jab wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:
    Since I am not an east-coast person, and I have never even visited that area of the country I have no idea what you mean by "I live in MA, you can't change these people.
    They had the same senator for 46 years...if that tells you anything... :P
    No, they had the same ANTI RIGHTS senator for 46 years ... and that tells most of us a lot. He couldn't drive or swim, and did not know CPR either. In fact he has killed more people with his car than most firearms owners have with their sidearm.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Thanks to all for your comments.

    I have educated and continue to educate my son about gun safety. This is something I learned and pass down. I just have not let him touch my guns. I let him look and watch, but make that a privledge to be earned with age and maturity. Maybe I'm wrong there. I don't want him to feel it is okay to touch a gun at 5 years old.

    I will not change my carrying habits. What I will change is that Iwill do my bestsonobody will know I carry, not even my son. I will not carry in the house. I will open carry myM&P in the backyard and clean all of my guns on the picnic tableto piss off the looney liberal neighbor nextdoor.The gunis for my and my family's protection. I will leave my neighbors to the police, since that is their choice.

    I will continue to let my son play cops and robbers. I don't see any harm to that. That's what boys do. He always plays the good guy.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Dr. CCW wrote:
    T...SNIP
    I will open carry my┬*M&P in the backyard and clean all of my guns on the picnic table┬*to piss off the looney liberal neighbor next┬*door.┬*┬*The gun┬*is for my and my family's protection.┬* I will leave my neighbors to the police, since that is their choice.
    SNIP...
    Since your neighbor insists on living under the umbrella of safety you provide around you and your family, I suggest you provide him with a sign for him to hang prominently on his front door where it can be read from the street.

    To Whit -
    "There are NO firearms in this house!"

    If he won't hang it, then he is only worried about YOU having a firearm, and that should piss you off.
    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    who cares what people think about you???

    i have lots of piercings and tattoos that scare of alot of people. you know what i say??? it weeds out the @#$%s right from the getgo.

    if you are to high and mighty to to talk to me because you "judge a book by it's cover", then you might very well be to close minded to associate with anyways.

    i want people to accept ME for WHO I AM. if i have to dress a certain way, or look a certain way for you to accept me, then you are NOT accepting ME. so then why would i want you around for such FAKE friendship???


    in my opinion the same applies here. If your neighbors knew you and liked you, they would like you regardless.




    one thing i can suggest that has helped me "educate" people that i am just a normal person (under the tattoos and piercings) is to just walk over and talk with them, offer them a drink, or if i see they need help with something, i go over and offer them help.

    lets say your neighbors start seeing that "the guy that always carries a gun on his hip" is helping the old folks next door shovel the snow off their property, or whatever good deeds you can come up with, then they might start to see YOU, and not the gun.



    just don't sink to far into azzkissing. in the end my first sentence still applies.




    oh and regarding your wife. you may have to attempt to lure the true answer out of her. it may take several attempts over weeks/months, and you may have to try several different ways of wording your questions.

    my wife liked the idea of homedefense, and of self defense. but at the same time never wanted guns around. but she did tolerate the fact that after being burglarized 2x, i was keeping them in the house regardless. after many many attempts of talking to her (generally she would shoot down the subject and not talk about it anymore) about carrying and guns, she finally admitted that she was afraid of handguns because she had never held or fired a handgun. she ONLY knew the M-16 that she was trained with in the military, and was ONLY comfortable with it. after taking her to the range with my handgun and shotgun, she became more comfortable with it, wants to go back to the range to try their "rent a gun case" to see what she feels comfortable with, AND....................today is the 2nd time she's coming with me to a gun show to see if she sees anything she likes.

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    I know what you mean about not being able to change some people. My next door neighbors moved in from the Bay Area in Ca. They are scared to death of the "gun guy" next door to them. The funny thing is, if they would just relax and say "Hi" once in a while, they would learn that I'm not only a decent guy, but that I am more than happy to share.

    I love taking newbies to the range. There'ssomething wonderful about the look on a persons face when they realize just how fun shooting can be.:celebrate

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    scorpio_vette wrote:
    i have lots of piercings and tattoos that scare of alot of people. you know what i say??? it weeds out the @#$%s right from the getgo.
    Thanks for the info.

    FYI, it ain't fear ("that scare alot[sic]"), it is loathing and disgust.

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    From MY perspective, being shunned by imbeciles is a GOOD thing and I'm always on the lookout for better ways to achieve that. The sorts of people who would avoid me because they knew I owned and carried firearms are not the sorts of people I want anything to do with anyway. Overwhelmingly, they have feelings instead of thoughts, are narcissistic passive-aggressive bullies, and are frequently crude bigots, and not just about firearms ownership.

    I do realize that some people want to be liked, and not necessarily for who they really are.

    It's a matter of choice. Do you want to deceive people who don't give a damn about you in the first place into "liking" you, or do you want a lot fewer real FRIENDS? You have a right to make either choice. Long ago, I chose the latter and feel a lot better about myself than if I'd chosen differently.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Dr. CCW wrote:
    Thanks to all for your comments.

    I have educated and continue to educate my son about gun safety. This is something I learned and pass down. I just have not let him touch my guns. I let him look and watch, but make that a privledge to be earned with age and maturity. Maybe I'm wrong there. I don't want him to feel it is okay to touch a gun at 5 years old. I think that is a personal choice for you to make, whether or not you think your son is ready to handle a firearm. I shot my first gun, a Beretta .22 at 5 years old.

    I will not change my carrying habits. What I will change is that Iwill do my bestsonobody will know I carry, not even my son. I will not carry in the house. In your first post didn't you say that you carry in your house? So you actually will be changing your carrying habits, right? P.S. a lot of bad stuff can happen in your house when you are home. Carrying in your house isn't as crazy as people make it out to be. Maybe you could show your wife some of the S.D. stories involving people getting attacked in their homes. I will open carry myM&P in the backyard and clean all of my guns on the picnic tableto piss off the looney liberal neighbor nextdoor.The gunis for my and my family's protection. I will leave my neighbors to the police, since that is their choice.

    I will continue to let my son play cops and robbers. I don't see any harm to that. That's what boys do. He always plays to good guy.

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    Scorpio, Thanks for your input. I agree with all you said.

    Here's a little clarification. I've been in the same house for 6 years, same neighborhood for 8. Longer than everyone around. Everyone knows me from before and they never had any issues. I now carry a gun. That info is VERY slowly trickling out. I'm finding that people are shocked. They want to know why. Did I lose a screw? Was I attacked? Meanwhile, here's a quick rundown of the police log since I've been here:

    Guy beaten with a shovel during robbery as he stepped out of his car 4 houses away.

    Guy smashed in the face with a brick and robbedwhile walking down the sidewalk

    Corrections officer stabbed to death on the sidewalkat the bar 2 blocks away

    Teenage heroin addict jumps my backyard wall and comes at mebecause "I'm looking at him" on it

    Young lady robbed at knife point in her doorway 4 houses in the other direction

    Home invasions by guys pretending to be utility workers

    3 banks in town, 2 blocks away get robbed at least once a year

    Convenient store 2 blocks away gets robbed at least 4 times a year

    They think I have a loose screw? Hawkflyer had it right. I live with people who voted in an anti-rights senator for 46 years.Sheep.

    The unanticipated problem I ran into is some people think it is unsafe to let their kid play with my kid because I carry and have guns in the house. I don't care what people think about me, never did, never will. The problem is, I don't want people to scorn my wife and kid.Carrying may negatively affect the friendships my kid and wife have had for years. My wife wants the gun out of sight and never talked about.

    I will hopefully be moving out of this state someday unless things change. We have a republican, Scott Brown running for Teddy Kennedy's seat. Hopefully every registered republican will go out and vote and all the complacent Obamites will say at home. The problem is epidemic here.

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    scorpio_vette wrote:
    i have lots of piercings and tattoos that scare of alot of people. you know what i say??? it weeds out the @#$%s right from the getgo.
    Thanks for the info.

    FYI, it ain't fear ("that scare alot[sic]"), it is loathing and disgust.
    I'm not sure if that is entirely true. There are many people who are absolutely terrified of the 'counter culture' type of people. I would say it's a bit of both. I'm not covered in tattoos, but I have plenty, and I have seen reactions of all types that include both fear and loathing/disgust. Many of them are the same sheeple who we speak of daily. Their ignorance is very well rounded.

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    Dr. CCW wrote:
    Thanks to all for your comments.

    I have educated and continue to educate my son about gun safety. This is something I learned and pass down. I just have not let him touch my guns. I let him look and watch, but make that a privledge to be earned with age and maturity. Maybe I'm wrong there. I don't want him to feel it is okay to touch a gun at 5 years old.

    I will not change my carrying habits. What I will change is that Iwill do my bestsonobody will know I carry, not even my son. I will not carry in the house. I will open carry myM&P in the backyard and clean all of my guns on the picnic tableto piss off the looney liberal neighbor nextdoor.The gunis for my and my family's protection. I will leave my neighbors to the police, since that is their choice.

    I will continue to let my son play cops and robbers. I don't see any harm to that. That's what boys do. He always plays to good guy.
    I would suggest this. Don't go out of your way, or design ways, to deliberately irritate your family members or neighbors. Just go about your business as though what you are doing is perfectly normal and in your opinion, acceptable. Be respectful, polite, and friendly, but also firm in your convictions. You do not owe anything to neighbors who may disagree with your method, but you also do not want to alienate them any more than necessary because you might find you need them some day. In the final assessment, it really boils down to this.

    The man who concerns himself with what others think of and/or about him lives in a shell and is less of a man.

    Don't let others dictate to you, your rights.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  18. #18
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Dr. CCW;

    Now I am the last person to make your life miserable by chastising you, saying you're less of a man because you won't tell your pissant neighbors to go crap in their hats. Really, I would never do that. So with that in mind, consider this little interesting tidbit.

    You will notice that I live in Virginia. From your description I have to tell you that down here, there is a WORLD of difference in the sort of attitudes and behavior which you have reported. You have no idea. It's almost like another country. Some day, if you get a chance, take a trip down here and see what I'm talking about. Virginia is not only by far the best fiscally managed state in the nation, but just amazing for those who chose to carry.. open or concealed.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    I know. I've been there. My dad lives in GA and that seems like a completely different country. A simple thing like reading the paper, opens your eyes. Our media here, paper, radio, and tv is so liberal it can brain wash you. No wonder the weaker of mind here is so easily programmed.

    Didn't your state go Democrat in 2008? What the hell happened? Oh, just wait till the next round. I hope all thoseturncoats are regretfull.

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    Dr. CCW, what i'm about to say is VERY HARSH and VERY DISRESPECTFUL but at the same time TRUE. so please don't take offense.


    you don't necessarily want to go and "push the topic", and make things worse, but at the same time, if you CONTINUE to go about your business as usual WITH your gun on you. that way 1) they don't win and take away your rights, and 2) if they see that nothing changed, then eventually they will find something else to complain about. it's like dogs. if you react, then they continue what they are doing. but if you completely ignore them, they'll get bored and move to other things.


    now as far as your wife wanting it "out of sight and never talked about". ask your wife this (it may start a fight. just let it go after she answers. no need to get into an argument over it.): so if a guy breaks in and wants to rape you, i should just let him instead of protecting you, since YOU WANT THE GUN OUT OF SIGHT AND NEVER TALKED ABOUT. (if she thinks guns are dangerous or doesn't like them, then throw that bit in at the end).



    yes it's a VERY VERY DISTURBING example, but it is true. i used rape examples when discussing guns with my wife, because not only is it one of the most horrific crimes in my opinion, but our sons god-mother was raped in a public park not even 1/2 mile from our house. in my opinion the rape topic generally really strikes home with woman.


    also when talking to your wife, do not describe the gun or discuss it as a weapon or something to kill with. describe it as a TOOL (use whatever hobbies you have as an example. a mechanic can't work without sockets, a woodworker can't work without saws, etc..etc..and not all tools are FREQUENT use tools. i had mechanic tools that were only used ones every blue moon. but when i did need them, it was usually an emergency.). and also make sure you use the phrase.

    better to HAVE IT and NOT NEED IT, then NEED IT and NOT HAVE IT.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Dr. CCW wrote:
    I know.┬* I've been there.┬* My dad lives in GA and that seems like a completely different country.┬* SNIP...
    Of course it seems like a different country.
    IT WAS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FROM 1860-1865!

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    No, they had the same ANTI RIGHTS senator for 46 years ... and that tells most of us a lot. He couldn't drive or swim, and did not know CPR either.
    Hey, give Ted SOME credit.... he's been sober for four months now!

  23. #23
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Dr. CCW wrote:
    I know. I've been there. My dad lives in GA and that seems like a completely different country. SNIP...
    Of course it seems like a different country.
    IT WAS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FROM 1860-1865!

    Regards
    Yes it was and that is why what is generally referred to as the "Civil War" was not a civil war at all. But try telling that to non-Southerners and they get all bent out of shape. I avoid it when possible.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    zoom6zoom wrote:
    No, they had the same ANTI RIGHTS senator for 46 years ... and that tells most of us a lot. He couldn't drive or swim, and did not know CPR either.
    Hey, give Ted SOME credit.... he's been sober for four months now!
    Now that is funny right there ... I don't care who you are that is funny!

    ROTF, LMAO

    Oh my ... Please lord forgive me for laughing at the dead drunk joke ... and please help the little pigmy people....
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Dr. CCW,

    I can sympathize with your situation. I currently live in NC (grew up in WV, and lived in Northern VA for 15 years), so my history is full of living in 2A-friendly states....

    My stepdaughters (and new granddaughter) lives in MD. Whe I go to visit them, I have to CONSTANTLY remind myself not to "strap on" every time I leave the house. I have to remember that the majority of the law-abiding citisens here are brain-washed anti-gunners who follow the lead of a corrupt, tyrannical government (anyone want to send some gift cards to the Mayor of Baltimore for Christmas this year?!?) I have to be ever vigilant to "properly stow and unload" every time I cross the border. And I have to be REALLY careful when Im driving on the Beltway that I don't take a wrong turn while I've got something in the car and end up in DC...

    I ALWAYS bring at least one gun with me. My wife is a "traveling nurse" and is living in MD for a few months, to technically, we have a "secondary residence" in MD, so I'm covered. But I can't OC or CC in my car even though I have a NC CHP (whic is recognized by over 30 other states!) I can't OC or CC when we're out and about in MD. Visiting MD is like visiting a small dictatorial "banana repubic"...

    But you can believe that when I visit friends in VA up here, I stop as SOON as I cross teh border, and arm up...

    The funny thing is, when I cross that border, I DO NOT automatically transform into some sort of raving maniac. I DO NOT morph into some psycho racist mass murderer. I DO NOT change into a gang-banger, burgler, stick-up artist, or car jacker. I'm still just me--a law-abiding citizen exercising my rights. Imagine that...

    There is NO WAY you are going to change the minds of your friends, neighbors and family if they are anti-2A. They have undergone decades of VERY subtle and pervasive psychological conditioning and are deeply traumatized with regards to firearms. The have essentially been given deeply wounding cases of PTSD by the media and their political leaders. So you need to know that there is NOTHING you can do in a conversation, or even in a few weeks of carrying that will snap them out of their zombie-lie stupor. They are damaged goods, and the only way out of it for them is a LOT of professional help from a properly trained psychologist...

    But what you can do is keep exercising your rights. As a US citizen, and a CCW permit holder in your state, you have become one of those "annointed ones" who the STATE has deemed is trustworthy to own and carry. If they get in your face, just stand there with a sweet smile, and using a non threatening gesture, pull out your permit, show it to them, and tell them that the STATE has CERTIFIED you do carry. Say no more...

    The Gun Control mentality is based on fear, trauma, and psychological conditioning that is VERY similar to the conditioning that was used inthe Soviet Union to keep the populace in fear of their government. People who have been exposed tom and bought into this line of thought are deeply traumatized, and suffer from a similar mental condition to POW's who have been tortured and brainwashed.

    We should pity them. We should love them. We should watch over them. We should stand up to them when they regurgitate lies, not because THEY will be effected by the truth, but so that others they are spewing lies to will then have the opportunity to see how terrible and dangerous their lies are.

    But you CAN'T reason with them...

    You CAN, however, carry, and with that comes the responsibility of keeping yourself and your loved ones safe from violent criminals.

    And THAT--the idea that individuals have PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY--is what these people are really afraid of...

    It's sad, really.

    But we claim that responsibility when we decide to exercise our 2A rights.

    You should be PROUD that you have chosen to get the training, spend the time, and spend the money to become a more RESPONSIBLE citizen.

    And if anyone can fault you for volunteering to become a more responsible citizen, and beig ever vigilant and prepared to defend the lives and safety of yourself and your family, then you KNOW they are truly psychotic.

    Welcome to the world of OC/CC.

    I hope you never have to "clear leather".

    But isn't it good to know that if you NEEDED to, you could?...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionŚand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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