Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: OC allowed with a CPL

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    Im certain this has been covered, but I can't seem to find it anywhere, my apologies.

    I understand that there are places I can OC, only with a CPL, but Im not sure about this. Is there something I can print to show a LEO who doesn't know the law either? I have a permit.



  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    stainless1911 wrote:
    Im certain this has been covered, but I can't seem to find it anywhere, my apologies.

    I understand that there are places I can OC, only with a CPL, but Im not sure about this. Is there something I can print to show a LEO who doesn't know the law either? I have a permit.
    Just look at the laws themselves.

    First we have 750.234d http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    Clearly here, CPL holders are exempt.

    Then we have 28.425o http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o in part:

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927


    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    Which, as you can see, is clearly ONLY talking about carrying concealed, and thus does not apply to open carry.

    Will that work for you?

  3. #3
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    This basically says that you can't possess a firearm at all in any of these places, either concealed or open, unless you have a CPL. And the CPL PFZs only apply to CC.



    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

    EDIT: Damn, Zig. You beat me to it.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    zigziggityzoo wrote:

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    Several places listed I omited them here for the sake of redundancy

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


    .
    Clearly here, CPL holders are exempt.




    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    Several places listed....... I omited them here for thre sake of redundancy
    Which, as you can see, is clearly ONLY talking about carrying concealed, and thus does not apply to open carry.
    This is why Im so confused, The back of my license says I cant carry in these places, then I see this law, that reads

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.



    And I do not see that the restrictions on Concealed carry (places on the back of the permit) applying to open carry.What I see here,isa contradiction, one thing says I can carry in those places, and another thing says I cannot, with the permit,therefore ImCONFUSED. Then theres open carry, which adds to the confusion.

    This confusion is one reason they wrote "shall not be infringed" into the second amendment. That, I understand clearly, yet it doesnt mean di** in court. Which is also confusing.

    Anyways, could someone please set me straight on all this?

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Monroe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    77

    Post imported post

    I'm trying to set my friend straight on this too, but, he, like you, doesn't understand the laws.

    I spoke with an officer tonight (a friend, newbie) he clearly knew "some" of the laws, but didn't know that you HAD to carry open in PFZ's if you had your CPL. After I told him about the laws he finally agreed with me.

    Although he is a new officer, I was pleased to hear that he knew that it was legal to carry open, although he didn't know all of the law.



    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate



    Just for Slowdog

  6. #6
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    Without a CPL you may only OC. You may not OC in any of the areas listed in MCL 750.234d. The CC PFZs do not matter at all at this point.

    Now you have a CPL. The PFZs in MCL 750.234d do not matter anymore. Your only restrictions are that you cannot CC in the areas on the back of your license (MCL 28.425o), but you can OC in them since they only restrict CC.

    Make sense?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  7. #7
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    This is why Im so confused, The back of my license says I cant carry in these places, then I see this law, that reads

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.



    And I do not see that the restrictions on Concealed carry (places on the back of the permit) applying to open carry.What I see here,isa contradiction, one thing says I can carry in those places, and another thing says I cannot, with the permit,therefore ImCONFUSED. Then theres open carry, which adds to the confusion.

    This confusion is one reason they wrote "shall not be infringed" into the second amendment. That, I understand clearly, yet it doesnt mean di** in court. Which is also confusing.

    Anyways, could someone please set me straight on all this?
    What I believe is confusing you is that we are dealing with two distinct laws.

    The first one, MCL 750.234d, only deals with possession of a pistol in general aka open carry. This is the one that lists an exemption for anybody licensed to carry a concealed pistol. It's important to note that it doesn't say you must carry concealed, only that you are exempt if you are licensed to do so.

    The second law, MCL 28.425o, ONLY deals with concealed carry. It specifically lists the places that a person licensed to carry concealed may NOT carry a concealed firearm. It has no bearing on where youmay open carry a firearm.

    They are two distinct laws and it is easy to get things from one list of prohibited places confused with the list from the other law. But, if you have a CPL the law dealing with open carry provides an exemptionfrom the open carrypistol free zones (PFZs) and if you are open carrying you do not fall under the restrictions layed out in the law dealing with concealed carry so the concealed carry PFZsdo not apply. Hence, with a valid CPL you may legally carry in all of Michigan's PFZs ....courts and Federal areas excepted.

    I hope that helps clear it up a little. Just to recap: we havetwo lists of PFZs, one for open carry and one for concealed carry. They are similar but different in significant ways and you have to be careful not to get them mixed up.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern lower & Keweenaw area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    667

    Post imported post

    Bronson, that was explained better than I've heard it explained before, and I've heard it plenty. The only thing I'd add is the casino floor being off limits, good job.springerdave.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    springerdave wrote:
    Bronson, that was explained better than I've heard it explained before, and I've heard it plenty. The only thing I'd add is the casino floor being off limits, good job.springerdave.
    Thanks springerdave. It was a very confusing point for me when I first started learing about OC soI had tokeep breaking it down in different ways so I could understand it.

    Good catch on the casino floor, thanks for that.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    If I OC without a permit, and my gun is kept locked, unloaded, seperate from the ammo, and in the trunk of my car, do I have to disclose to the officer that I have a gun in the car or no?

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    stainless1911 wrote:
    If I OC without a permit, and my gun is kept locked, unloaded, seperate from the ammo, and in the trunk of my car, do I have to disclose to the officer that I have a gun in the car or no?
    No you do not. Disclosure only applies if you are licensed under the act (CPL) and you're CC or OC inside of your vehicle or CC on foot.

    An officer will most likely ask if you have any weapons, RPG's, hand grenades, etc,in your car. At this point you should not lie and simply answer the question. You'll know when it becomes a "fishing Expedition" and at that time you may choose to remain quiet.

  12. #12
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    666

    Post imported post

    No you do not have to inform on a routine traffic stop. That is only a CPL requirement.

  13. #13
    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Redford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    424

    Post imported post

    If your gun and ammo are locked in the trunk all snug and legal then no, you do not have to tell the officer of anything you are carrying and no you don't have the obligation to let him search your vehicle either.
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

  14. #14
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    If I OC without a permit, and my gun is kept locked, unloaded, seperate from the ammo, and in the trunk of my car, do I have to disclose to the officer that I have a gun in the car or no?
    No you do not. Disclosure only applies if you are licensed under the act (CPL) and you're CC or OC inside of your vehicle or CC on foot.

    An officer will most likely ask if you have any weapons, RPG's, hand grenades, etc,in your car. At this point you should not lie and simply answer the question. You'll know when it becomes a "fishing Expedition" and at that time you may choose to remain quiet.
    I disagree, don't answer it. Ask him why he is asking the question or say why are you asking,do you think I have grenades in my car?

    You do not have to talk to the police and you do not have to agree to any searches. Do not resist if they insist, but keep saying you do not consent to any searches.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    If I OC without a permit, and my gun is kept locked, unloaded, seperate from the ammo, and in* the trunk of my car, do I have to disclose to the officer that I have a gun in the car or no?
    No you do not.* Disclosure only applies if you are licensed under the act (CPL) and you're CC or OC inside of your vehicle or CC on foot.

    An officer will most likely ask if you have any weapons, RPG's, hand grenades, etc,*in your car.* At this point you should not lie and simply answer the question.* You'll know when it becomes a "fishing Expedition" and at that time you may choose to remain quiet.
    I disagree, don't answer it.* Ask him why he is asking the question or say why are you asking,*do you think I have grenades in my car?*

    You do not have to talk to the police and you do not have to agree to any searches.* Do not resist if they insist, but keep saying you do not consent to any searches.
    I agree with Venator. The least you say to the police the better. Usually they only ask if you have weapons before a search or frisking, both of which should not be done without probable cause.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    mikestilly wrote:
    The least you say to the police the better. Usually they only ask if you have weapons before a search or frisking, both of which should not be done without probable cause.
    Light pat down may be executed during Terry stop where officer also reasonably finds subject to be both armed and dangerous.

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    stainless1911 wrote:
    Im certain this has been covered, but I can't seem to find it anywhere, my apologies.

    I understand that there are places I can OC, only with a CPL, but Im not sure about this. Is there something I can print to show a LEO who doesn't know the law either? I have a permit.

    Can one of you Michigan experts guys make a Venn diagram or some other visual for this?

    Somthing that visually depicts the results of the 2 statutes in question operaing simoultaneously?

    I think a cool easy to understand diagram might be appreciated not just by gun owners living in and traveling thru Michigan but Michigan law enorcement agencies as well for training.

  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Thats a good idea mike...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    SW Michigan
    Posts
    254

    Post imported post

    stainless1911 wrote:
    The back of my license says I cant carry in these places...
    No, the backactually says "...shall not carry a concealed pistol ..." in those places.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    Mike wrote:



    Can one of you Michigan experts guys make a Venn diagram or some other visual for this?

    Somthing that visually depicts the results of the 2 statutes in question operaing simoultaneously?
    I have to agree with this request, I would be so grateful to have something like this, I would make some copies, and keep one of them available to show the LEO's.

    Why doesn't the state give you something like this when you get your permit?'

    Prolly cause if'n they had that much cents they wootnt havede laws to begin wit.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •