Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Do not patronise while armed.

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    I thought it would be helpful to make a thread where we could list those businesses which do not allow their patrons to be armed. I got the idea from MCRGO. It can be difficult to get them to post a business on their site, so I thought we should have our own.

    A few suggestions: Location, or address. The date. Did you attempt to explain Did they have a PFZ sign? Did they agree or refuse to post one? Did they call the police? Were they polite, fearful, hostile, apologetic, etc? Did they request you to conceal? Did they ask you to leave it in the car? Did they ask you to not return? If the police were involved, how did they act? The more information the better.

    I'll go first.

    Walter P. Chrysler Museum.One Chrysler Drive
    Auburn Hills, MI 48326-2778 USA


    12 20 2009 I was able to explain the OC vs private property law. There was no signage posted. There was no agreement or refusal to post a PFZ sign. They did call the police, and their security department. They were nervous, but polite. They requested that I leave, and that I did not return while armed. I left before the police arrived. The Auburn Hills police department called me at my home that afternoon. They were polite, and professional. They were respectful of my rights to both OC and CC. Theyverified that everything was within the law, and that both parties have been informed of and are in agreement with each others rights.

  2. #2
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    All I will say is lists are not a good idea IMOP... they have a tendancy to be fluid and that can lead to problems... also it could be used against a person that was known to post here but never looked at the list... It could be said that they were given notice by said list to not carry in a certain place.

    That is why we instead post a list of places you can carry!


    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    autosurgeon wrote:
    It could be said that they were given notice by said list to not carry in a certain place.


    I appreciate the caution, bit I do remember reading a specific law which requires a posted sign, and the letters on the sign must be at least one inch in height. This list wouldnt be admissable.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern lower & Keweenaw area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    667

    Post imported post

    Rick O'Shey.springerdave.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    stainless1911 wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    It could be said that they were given notice by said list to not carry in a certain place.


    I appreciate the caution, bit I do remember reading a specific law which requires a posted sign, and the letters on the sign must be at least one inch in height. This list wouldnt be admissable.
    You can find it in MCL 28.425o

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    This is the only requirement by law in Michigan to post signs that I'm aware of.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    Welcome to OCDO Stainless1911

    Posting a list of no carry businesses is a bad idea-nothing good really comes from it. It's best to put your time and energy into finding/posting businesses who are OC friendly.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    thanks, but whats ocdo?

    I noticed that was your 1911th post.

  8. #8
    Regular Member drew68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    42

    Post imported post

    ocdo = Open Carry Dot Org

  9. #9
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Posting a list of no carry businesses is a bad idea-nothing good really comes from it. It's best to put your time and energy into finding/posting businesses who are OC friendly.
    I've never considered it to be too important to make a list one way or another. Making sure you don't go anywhere illegal or posted, and having a good demeanor, as in dressing decently and being overly friendly, will go a very long way to let people know you're not going to start trouble, and avoid silly confrontations.

    If you do these simple things, and above all else mind the laws, you won't have much trouble.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  10. #10
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Mason, Michigan
    Posts
    1,811

    Post imported post

    the steak n shake in lansing.

    manager even called corporate to confirm policy,or so he said.

    no customers can carry,concealed or otherwise.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    the steak n shake in lansing.

    manager even called corporate to confirm policy,or so he said.

    no customers can carry,concealed or otherwise.
    I will be perfectly frank they could all go belly up and I couldn't care... I got food poisoning from two diff ones was sick for 24 hours and then weak as a mouse for three days... wouldn't go in one if it was the last place to get a meal...

    I however doubt that there is such a policy as unless they post it then it is useless... as many people will CC and they will never be the wiser...


    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    the steak n shake in lansing.

    manager even called corporate to confirm policy,or so he said.

    no customers can carry,concealed or otherwise.

    I've OCed in the Battle Creek Steak & Shake and the one on Westnedge in Kalamazoo on several occasions without incident. I think the trick is to be a good tipper then the wait staff won't care if you're carrying a bazooka:P

    And to bring it back on topic I think this list would be redundant since MCRGO already has one that is established, easy to access, and is widely known about in the gun owning community. I've added places to their list and it just takes a bit for them to confirm whatever it is they confirm. They'll send you an email when it goes up on the list.

    Bronson

    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    I saw the post and felt like I have to throw in my 2 cents. I feel having the Do Not Patronize List is a good thing. I'd rather know in advance that certain places are anti's and I'm sure many others do as well. Not only that it's better to find out places like Jerrod's which a very large sign no firearms allowed on the premises. It's good to keep things positive but it's also good to know where to avoid. It's quite the pain to find out after the fact. (can also help prevent an unnecessary confrontation)

    Also measures can be taken to verify the validity of peoples submissions. A simple call to the business owner or corporate entity can solve and confusion.

  14. #14
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Mike here is why I disagree. When you call a store and ask if they allow OC most of the time they will say NO as they know nothing about it and may even think it is unlawful. So making a list based on that reaction is NOT wise.

    I agree with Bronson that one list is plenty. If enough people request it I am sure MOC could put a link to the MCRGO list up on the website. MCRGO usually has a member in the area verify either from previous experience or by going to the place and physically double checking the policy IE sign or other notice.

    So to recap.

    1. calling places to ask their policy will almost always get a NO.

    2. One list is enough.

    3. The reason for the time delay on the MCRGO list is for verification so that it is not hearsay.

    4. MOC could link to the MCRGO list if enough members want that.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    Bronson wrote:

    And to bring it back on topic I think this list would be redundant since MCRGO already has one
    it just takes a bit for them to confirm whatever it is they confirm. They'll send you an email when it goes up on the list.

    Bronson
    There are tworeasons I started this thread, because When I had a problem at a best buy (with police involvement), I submitted the incident to mcrgo, and they disregarded it, and secondly, as Mike has pointed out, it is better to avoid an avoidable conflict. We do have to deal with people and LEOs as it is, but lessis more, you know.

    Auto suggested a link to the MCRGO list. Here it is, but I have to disagree, I think that the more we as gun owners can be made aware of these places, the bigger impact we can have, and the less problems we will experience. And calling to ask permission first, will almost always get you a NO. People need to see us over and over again before they will be able to distinguish between a responsible law abiding gun owner, and a gun toting thug. The media, hollywood, and the liberals have doner their jobs very well, and it is our job to counter their lies with truth.

    http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_no_gun_signs.asp



  16. #16
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    The problem is Best Buy is not anti OC or CC you just ran into an uninformed manager. This is better handled on a case by case basis then by making a blanket statement that Best Buy is anti OC or CC.

    Also I think it is more productive to complain to corporate first and see if they will take care of it then to put the store on a list and call it good...

    NOTE IMOP!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  17. #17
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    autosurgeon wrote:
    The problem is Best Buy is not anti OC or CC you just ran into an uninformed manager. This is better handled on a case by case basis then by making a blanket statement that Best Buy is anti OC or CC.

    Also I think it is more productive to complain to corporate first and see if they will take care of it then to put the store on a list and call it good...

    NOTE IMOP!
    In fact here it is.

    BEST BUY's POLICY

    from Customer Contact <CustomerContact@bestbuy.com>
    to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    date Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:31 PM
    subject Best Buy Gun policy - XXXXXXXX
    mailed-by
    bestbuy.com

    Best Buy strives to comply with all applicable law and statues. Best Buy also strives to provide a safe and comfortable shopping environment for all our customers. Best Buy does not ban guns at our retail locations. As a general rule, Best Buy does not post “no guns allowed” signs in our stores and we are not aware of any individual stores that might have posted such a sign.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    Best Buy in Auburn Hills (across from Great Lakes Crossing)

    I was there this summer, and An Auburn Hills Officer showed up. The management had called them while having the employees quietly try to avoid me. The employee I did speak to actually tried to discourage me from making the purchase. The officer and I both explained to the managers that what I was doing was legal, and the private property laws were explained as well. The manager did not want to put up a PFZ sign, as he probably figured it would drive away customers. However, he still insisted that I leave my gun in the car, permit, or no permit. When I submitted this to mcrgo, they never put it up, basically Best Buy got away with it. To he** with that. There is now a thread for those types as well.

    The Auburn Hills police department should be congratsulated. The officer knew the laws well. He was very respectful, polite, and professional. He did not disarm me, he did not put me in cuffs, or anything. This officer respected me, and my rights to OC, and CC. We spoke for a few minutes, and he even told me that I had a nice piece.

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948

    Post imported post

    Apparently, the brass at Best Buy, are bright enough to realise they shouldn't be posting signs. But if they "prefer to handle it on a case by case basis", this allows them to discriminate against OC without having the consequenses of being portrayed as being anti-gun. Basically, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    stainless1911 wrote:
    Apparently, the brass at Best Buy, are bright enough to realise they shouldn't be posting signs. But if they "prefer to handle it on a case by case basis", this allows them to discriminate against OC without having the consequenses of being portrayed as being anti-gun. Basically, they want to have their cake and eat it too.
    You are preaching to choir on that. Walmart is doing the same thing, Last year they said they follow state law, recently they have left it up to management on a case by case basis. They want it both ways.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    Apparently, the brass at Best Buy, are bright enough to realise they shouldn't be posting signs. But if they "prefer to handle it on a case by case basis", this allows them to discriminate against OC without having the consequenses of being portrayed as being anti-gun. Basically, they want to have their cake and eat it too.*
    You are preaching to choir on that.* Walmart is doing the same thing, Last year they said they follow state law, recently they have left it up to management on a case by case basis.* They want it both ways.
    The way I would handle posting on a situation like this is put up specific stores that had encounters. As the negative encounters increase people will get the point that they're trying to save face by falsely saying they're allowing people to carry while at the same time they are calling the police on people who do.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •