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detained in a TN State Park for 2.5 hours nearly arrested because cops don't know definition pistol

Hawkflyer

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Renegade wrote:
Is this a sick joke or something?

A law-abiding veteran lawfully carries a firearm and police attack him and point a loaded damn shotgun at him...and most of you are not supporting him? Are you kidding me?!?

Suck it up, set aside the trivial and irrelevant facts that antis are so damn focused on, and support this man.

My God, what has this country become? A post above includes a picture of a minuteman. Guys that wore whatever they had available and carried the best arms they had at the time. Some were smoothbore and some were rifled - some were hunting rifle and guess what...some were military grade!!! Hello, is anyone listening?

And I bet not a single damn one of you that has criticized this man has a problem with your local fat-assed, donut choking, police "spec-ops" wanna be sporting the latest military garb and carrying a fully automatic machine gun? Right??? In your narrow mind it is perfectly OK for some mid-30s, wife-beating, citizen abusing, thug of a law enforcement officer to carry a short barreled machine gun and kick in doors, hog tie citizens, etc.

Get down to the basics here people - wake the hell up.

This man did nothing wrong.

Police attacked him and threatened his life.

Now very few of you are actually standing behind him. And why??? Freckin' cosmetic features on his firearm. Now let's get behind our fellow man and continue to educate society.

You must not have read the entire thread. If you had you would know that there is a lot more going on here than cosmetics and dress codes.

This guy started this entire episode with a lie. By painting the muzzle orange he was proclaiming to the world that he was in fact NOT carrying a firearm. It does not matter that when asked he admitted that it was a live fire weapon, and it matters less that it is legal. To any untrained observer (and many trained as well) it would make this weapon appear to be a toy. This was purposeful and in fact represents the one thing he thought out in advance. The actual intent was to deceive. You cannot be an OC activist by deceiving people into thinking you are carrying a toy.

Support of the RTKABA is not based in deceit, it is based in honest people acting honorably in support of their freedom and liberty while accepting the responsibility that firearms ownership carries with it. Everything in this world happens within a context. This situation is no different. The problem is that the entire story has yet to come out. According to some of his posts on other forums, something happened between this guy and the police a while back. It is not clear what the incident involved but if you start from there and look at the big context that surrounds this person a picture emerges that is not centered around RTKABA activism.

We have a guy who has some kind of history with the police, carrying an unconventional handgun, attempting to hide the fact that it is a real weapon when out in public, actively seeking AP ammo for same, trying to buy Kevlar, working to obtain a silencer, and actively attempting to confront police. He has been banished from almost every credible firearms forum on the internet except this one. Add to that the veiled threat in his statement in this thread that the police "better not" detain him too long when they stop him at the mall.

While these things may all be perfectly legal, taken together they are all also the hallmark of a person about to cause a major tragedy. There were less than half of these signs in the history of the Fort Hood shooter. There were less signs before Columbine. You ask that we help this person, and I say that we are helping him by telling him to seek help before this gets beyond help.

I can support this guys right to carry whatever he wants, but I cannot support the way he is going about it or the context in which he is acting. In my view he is preparing for and attempting to provoke a police shootout, and I fear he will get just that. My only hope is that there are no innocent people around when it happens.

Regards
 

kwikrnu

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Hawkflyer wrote:
You must not have read the entire thread. If you had you would know that there is a lot more going on here than cosmetics and dress codes.

This guy started this entire episode with a lie. By painting the muzzle orange he was proclaiming to the world that he was in fact NOT carrying a firearm. It does not matter that when asked he admitted that it was a live fire weapon, and it matters less that it is legal. To any untrained observer (and many trained as well) it would make this weapon appear to be a toy. This was purposeful and in fact represents the one thing he thought out in advance. The actual intent was to deceive. You cannot be an OC activist by deceiving people into thinking you are carrying a toy.

Support of the RTKABA is not based in deceit, it is based in honest people acting honorably in support of their freedom and liberty while accepting the responsibility that firearms ownership carries with it. Everything in this world happens within a context. This situation is no different. The problem is that the entire story has yet to come out. According to some of his posts on other forums, something happened between this guy and the police a while back. It is not clear what the incident involved but if you start from there and look at the big context that surrounds this person a picture emerges that is not centered around RTKABA activism.

We have a guy who has some kind of history with the police, carrying an unconventional handgun, attempting to hide the fact that it is a real weapon when out in public, actively seeking AP ammo for same, trying to buy Kevlar, working to obtain a silencer, and actively attempting to confront police. He has been banished from almost every credible firearms forum on the internet except this one. Add to that the veiled threat in his statement in this thread that the police "better not" detain him too long when they stop him at the mall.

While these things may all be perfectly legal, taken together they are all also the hallmark of a person about to cause a major tragedy. There were less than half of these signs in the history of the Fort Hood shooter. There were less signs before Columbine. You ask that we help this person, and I say that we are helping him by telling him to seek help before this gets beyond help.

I can support this guys right to carry whatever he wants, but I cannot support the way he is going about it or the context in which he is acting. In my view he is preparing for and attempting to provoke a police shootout, and I fear he will get just that. My only hope is that there are no innocent people around when it happens.

Regards

I thought I lived in America where I can ask questions about how to obtain items which are legal for purchase. You think if I were going to break the law I would post my plans? That is the silliest idea ever.

I don't like being detained by cops, but as I understand and have understood from 39-17-1351 detention is legal. They may stop me, demand my permit, and after determining I am not a safety risk they are to let me go with my handgun. They had better not detain me like they did Sunday. If you're not clear about what happened listen to the audio or read the transcript I posted.

1. I was detained by the first ranger who looked at the handgun said it was a pistol and he checked my permit. He could have ordered me on the ground at gun point, but he didn't. I passed several other people and actually lost sight of the first ranger in the 20 minute or so walk back to the west parking lot.

2. I was detained at gun point when ranger two jumped out of his truck. This ranger was in contact with the first ranger. I'm sure the first told the second he had seen my permit. This second ranger has seen me before. He has seen my permit before.

How did I go from a decent guy a ranger checked out and let go, to a crazy man who needed to be detained 2.5 hours at gun point in 20 minutes?

I don't know, It doesn't make sense. It shouldn't happen to me or anyone else.
 

USAF Retired

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There will always be those on the "fringe", and this guy evidently is, along with a very few of his all out supporters here.

These folks seem to miss the point between what might be "legal" and what is "the right thing to do".

Here's an anaolgy for you. It might be "legal" to wear a KKK robe out in public and it might be protected under the 1st Amendment as "freedom of expression".

Okay, so we've established that the wear of the KKK robe might be "legal". Now, let's have some guy to wear that to the homecoming football game of a predominately "black" college like Tennessee State University, or even a school with a mixed crowd like the University of Tennessee. Better yet, let him wear it to an event where Barrack Hussein Obama is to appear......

Legal? Perhaps. Smart? Absolutely not. Proper? Absolutely not.

Maybe this nut-job will try that stunt and then we'll read about that in the press and see how that worked out for him.

This nut-job is so crazy, I bet he would parade around outside a mosque in his cammos carrying this weapon to make a point. Okay, let's see how that one works out for you as well.

The point is that "There is a time, a place, and a purpose" (Ecc 3) for everything. Why push the limits when it is not necessary? What good are you doing to promote the 2nd Amendment? What image are you creating for CCP holders? What image are you promoting for those of us who champion the 2nd Amendment?

This bozo is a loose cannon and we don't need folks like that in our ranks.

And yes, "fly boy" here has a problem with folks who disdain the uniform because unlike them, I'm proud of that uniform. Evidently those who choose not to wear the uniform properly have no respect for it, just as those who choose to abuse the 2nd Amendment have no true respect for the 2nd Amendment and our fight to protect it.

Is this guy on the same dope as "Balloon Boy's" parents?
 

kwikrnu

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USAF Retired wrote:
I'm proud of that uniform. Evidently those who choose not to wear the uniform properly have no respect for it, just as those who choose to abuse the 2nd Amendment have no true respect for the 2nd Amendment and our fight to protect it.

Do you know what the Second Amendment says? My right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
 

Hawkflyer

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kwikrnu wrote:
[...SNIP

I thought I lived in America where I can ask questions about how to obtain items which are legal for purchase. You think if I were going to break the law I would post my plans? That is the silliest idea ever.

I don't like being detained by cops, but as I understand and have understood from 39-17-1351 detention is legal. They may stop me, demand my permit, and after determining I am not a safety risk they are to let me go with my handgun. They had better not detain me like they did Sunday. If you're not clear about what happened listen to the audio or read the transcript I posted.

1. I was detained by the first ranger who looked at the handgun said it was a pistol and he checked my permit. He could have ordered me on the ground at gun point, but he didn't. I passed several other people and actually lost sight of the first ranger in the 20 minute or so walk back to the west parking lot.

2. I was detained at gun point when ranger two jumped out of his truck. This ranger was in contact with the first ranger. I'm sure the first told the second he had seen my permit. This second ranger has seen me before. He has seen my permit before.

How did I go from a decent guy a ranger checked out and let go, to a crazy man who needed to be detained 2.5 hours at gun point in 20 minutes?

I don't know, It doesn't make sense. It shouldn't happen to me or anyone else.

You just do not get what a LOT of people are trying to tell you. You do live in America. But America is a lot more than a line on a map, or a body of laws. It is a society with a culture and expectations of behavior for its citizens, and how they interact with one another. It is about more than just YOUR rights, because we ALL have rights. Just as I have the right NOT to support every extremist nut case that comes along.

Sure you can ask questions, and you can buy things. You even have the right to be stupid once you obtain them. But Buddy, YOUR rights end at the nose of the next guy. You seem to forget that other people have rights too. Among those is the same right you proclaim to go about our business without disturbance. Your crackpot idea changed the atmosphere in that park for other patrons on that Sunday. Nobody goes to the park expecting to have a noisy and disturbing police party. Now I know you will blame the police for that, but don't even go there because there would have been no party without the guest of honor.

You have already admitted that the police can stop a person under the conditions you created. What you fail to see is that after the first cop stops you, you do NOT get a free ride with the next one just because they talked or because they know you. So long as the activity you are conducting continues, and it has the appearance of something that a LEO should check out, any LEO who sees you can stop you and go through the entire process again to his satisfaction. Each of those officers will treat you as they deem necessary based on the conditions at the time they stopped you.

By your own words the first Ranger found you with the weapon slung on your back. The second Ranger found you with the weapon slung on your chest. Those two carry methods represent a completely different threat level and the LEOs acted accordingly. By the way, you seem to forget that the first guy did not know the gun was real when he approached you, BECAUSE YOU ATTEMPTED TO CONCEAL THAT FACT WITH THE ORANGE TIP. The second guy KNEW it was real. Both acted accordingly.

The fact is that it does not matter that what you did was legal. You keep crying this mantra as your defense, but it does NOT justify what you have done. Most gun laws are NOT legal so why would ANYONE use that as the ONLY measure to determine what should or should not be done. You come here expecting everyone to support what you have done and you and a few others are shocked that people have reacted against your actions. By the way lets be clear about that point. It is YOUR ACTIONS that people have objected to, NOT the gun or your right to carry it. So here is the fact of the matter.

You have done nothing positive to support the OC community or people who have been fighting for decades to retain and expand the RTKABA so you could have the rights necessary to pull this stunt. Why can I say that? Because what you did may be legal, but it was S-T-U-P-I-D, and it damages the RTKABA cause and soils the reputation of the OC movement. Why? Because it shows a complete and total disregard for the responsibility that comes with having and exercising rights, and a total disregard for the rights of others. So why the hell should any of us support you? You have failed miserably in answering that simple question.

Merry Christmas
 

USAF Retired

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The point that you seem to me missing is that along with "rights" comes "responsibility". They go hand-in-hand.

It is not your "right" to "incite a riot" by "exercising your 1st Amendment right" and yelling the "N-word" in front of a large crowd of black folks.

Likewise, it is not your "right" to "incite the anti-gun" crowd by "exercising your 2nd Amendment rights" by the display of a weapon in an improper fashion at the wrong time and in the wrong place just to make some kind of "point".

There's an old saying that "sometimes you have to choose your battles" in order to win the war. We are in a "war" in the defense of our 2nd Amendment rights, and for some lowly "Private" to draft such a needless "battle plan" in the midst of this war does nothing but to give "aid and comfort" to the enemy.
 

Fallguy

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The more I think of it the more I'm really made at kwikrnu's reaction than his actions.

Yes he was within the law carrying what he did, where he did. But no one can honestly say it wasn't pushing the envelope. But the same can be said for the LE involved. LE may have pushed the envelope on the length of detention and using a felony take down, but IMO they too remained within the realm of being legal.

So there ya go, we had two sides both going to extremes (an equal and opposite reaction) and that is about it.
 

midiwall

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kwikrnu wrote:
1. I was detained by the first ranger who looked at the handgun said it was a pistol and he checked my permit. He could have ordered me on the ground at gun point, but he didn't. I passed several other people and actually lost sight of the first ranger in the 20 minute or so walk back to the west parking lot.

2. I was detained at gun point when ranger two jumped out of his truck. This ranger was in contact with the first ranger. I'm sure the first told the second he had seen my permit. This second ranger has seen me before. He has seen my permit before.

How did I go from a decent guy a ranger checked out and let go, to a crazy man who needed to be detained 2.5 hours at gun point in 20 minutes?
It's funny to watch you repeat what happened, but you refuse to see the story.

What makes you think the first ranger thought you were a decent guy? How would ANY LEO think that a guy walking around a rich neighborhood in cammo and a black skull cap with a fully loaded Draco - painted to look like a toy - was "a decent guy"?

The actions that happened as you came off the trail proves that he thought you were a THREAT that needed to be checked out very thoroughly.

Look at the facts, even as you see them, of what happened and then see the story.
 

USAF Retired

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:) I have posted a link to this website and this discussion blog on The Tennessean as well as my Facebook page.


I invite the media to view this discussion, and to realize that we in the "mainstream" do not support nor condone the actions of this "nut case".

This guy is "trouble" and there is no question about it.

I really, seriously, wonder if he's not just a "nut case" but perhaps a "plant" from the Brady Bunch. If not, he's crazy enough that maybe he'd be better off in their crowd anyway. We have no place for him.

It's obvious that this guy will not listen to "reason".
 

kwikrnu

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Hawkflyer wrote:
You just do not get what a LOT of people are trying to tell you. You do live in America. But America is a lot more than a line on a map, or a body of laws. It is a society with a culture and expectations of behavior for its citizens, and how they interact with one another. It is about more than just YOUR rights, because we ALL have rights. Just as I have the right NOT to support every extremist nut case that comes along.

Sure you can ask questions, and you can buy things. You even have the right to be stupid once you obtain them. But Buddy, YOUR rights end at the nose of the next guy. You seem to forget that other people have rights too. Among those is the same right you proclaim to go about our business without disturbance. Your crackpot idea changed the atmosphere in that park for other patrons on that Sunday. Nobody goes to the park expecting to have a noisy and disturbing police party. Now I know you will blame the police for that, but don't even go there because there would have been no party without the guest of honor.

You have already admitted that the police can stop a person under the conditions you created. What you fail to see is that after the first cop stops you, you do NOT get a free ride with the next one just because they talked or because they know you. So long as the activity you are conducting continues, and it has the appearance of something that a LEO should check out, any LEO who sees you can stop you and go through the entire process again to his satisfaction. Each of those officers will treat you as they deem necessary based on the conditions at the time they stopped you.

By your own words the first Ranger found you with the weapon slung on your back. The second Ranger found you with the weapon slung on your chest. Those two carry methods represent a completely different threat level and the LEOs acted accordingly. By the way, you seem to forget that the first guy did not know the gun was real when he approached you, BECAUSE YOU ATTEMPTED TO CONCEAL THAT FACT WITH THE ORANGE TIP. The second guy KNEW it was real. Both acted accordingly.

The fact is that it does not matter that what you did was legal. You keep crying this mantra as your defense, but it does NOT justify what you have done. Most gun laws are NOT legal so why would ANYONE use that as the ONLY measure to determine what should or should not be done. You come here expecting everyone to support what you have done and you and a few others are shocked that people have reacted against your actions. By the way lets be clear about that point. It is YOUR ACTIONS that people have objected to, NOT the gun or your right to carry it. So here is the fact of the matter.

You have done nothing positive to support the OC community or people who have been fighting for decades to retain and expand the RTKABA so you could have the rights necessary to pull this stunt. Why can I say that? Because what you did may be legal, but it was S-T-U-P-I-D, and it damages the RTKABA cause and soils the reputation of the OC movement. Why? Because it shows a complete and total disregard for the responsibility that comes with having and exercising rights, and a total disregard for the rights of others. So why the hell should any of us support you? You have failed miserably in answering that simple question.

Merry Christmas

I didn't violate anyone's rights. I didn't yell, scream, stare,threaten, or assaultanyone. A good number of people donot like open carry picnics, but you don't see me claiming you're infringing on someone else's right.

Conditions did not change from the first and second ranger encounter. The weapon was on a sling and rested on my chest both times. The first ranger knew it was a real ak-47 because I told him. After I passed he could have ordered me to the ground, but he did not do so.

So, you say it wasn't the fact I carried this handgunpeople disagree with. So, tell me exactly what clothes I should wear next time I carry the AK. I'll even remove the thread protector and put on a regular flash hider. I'll bet people will still be steamed I carried an AK even in a business suit.

I didn't ask for your support. I'm not the member of any RTKBA movement or cause.
 

kwikrnu

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midiwall wrote:
It's funny to watch you repeat what happened, but you refuse to see the story.

What makes you think the first ranger thought you were a decent guy? How would ANY LEO think that a guy walking around a rich neighborhood in cammo and a black skull cap with a fully loaded Draco - painted to look like a toy - was "a decent guy"?

The actions that happened as you came off the trail proves that he thought you were a THREAT that needed to be checked out very thoroughly.

Look at the facts, even as you see them, of what happened and then see the story.
If the first ranger thought I was dangerous why did he let me go? He knew the pistol was real. He was armed. He should have drew his gun and stopped me as I walked off if I was dangerous. However, he let me go lost sight of me as I walked away and I passed several more walkers.
 

HankT

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USAF Retired wrote:
:) I have posted a link to this website and this discussion blog on The Tennessean as well as my Facebook page.


I invite the media to view this discussion, and to realize that we in the "mainstream" do not support nor condone the actions of this "nut case".

This guy is "trouble" and there is no question about it.

I really, seriously, wonder if he's not just a "nut case" but perhaps a "plant" from the Brady Bunch. If not, he's crazy enough that maybe he'd be better off in their crowd anyway. We have no place for him.

It's obvious that this guy will not listen to "reason".
This guy is one of ours. He's our homey. Just like Danbus. Just like anty506.

He's our guy.

Everything he does, we all get the credit.

kwik iz da man.

Our man.




USAF Retired wrote:
The point that you seem to me missing is that along with "rights" comes "responsibility". They go hand-in-hand.

It is not your "right" to "incite a riot" by "exercising your 1st Amendment right" and yelling the "N-word" in front of a large crowd of black folks.

Likewise, it is not your "right" to "incite the anti-gun" crowd by "exercising your 2nd Amendment rights" by the display of a weapon in an improper fashion at the wrong time and in the wrong place just to make some kind of "point".


:shock:Wow, this sounds like it came off of Sarah Brady's word processor....


Is your wife a MMM member by any chance????? Are you?
 

cc10sbum

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In my opinion, carrying such a weapon openly (anywhere) is just extremely poor judgement. As CC permit holders, we must recognize that there will always be people that will be frightened by the sight of any firearm openly carried. If these instances continue to increase, at some point the Tn Legislature will likely address the issue and amend the current law and prohibit open carry. We do not want that to happen as that will then lead to "technical" violations when a weapon is exposed temporairly such as when puting on or removing a jacket. Just because we have the right to carry openly does not mean that we should flaunt that right and potentially jeapordize the right for all CC permit holders at some point in the future which is exactly what may happen.
 

cc10sbum

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Furthermore, we all know that the orange tip is a universal sign that the weapon is not a real firearm. Use of this device on a real firearm can only be viewed as an intent to deceive other citizens and/or LE. This is also just plain dumb and ultimately will work against the CC rights that the Tn Legislature has extended to law abiding citizens of Tn. We should be thankful to the men and women of the Tn Legislature for giving us that right and we should not do stupid things like this that reflect adversely on the Tn Legislators that had the wisdom to grant us the right to carry. Stunts like this hurt all concerned.
 

kwikrnu

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cc10sbum wrote:
In my opinion, carrying such a weapon openly (anywhere) is just extremely poor judgement. As CC permit holders, we must recognize that there will always be people that will be frightened by the sight of any firearm openly carried. If these instances continue to increase, at some point the Tn Legislature will likely address the issue and amend the current law and prohibit open carry. We do not want that to happen as that will then lead to "technical" violations when a weapon is exposed temporairly such as when puting on or removing a jacket. Just because we have the right to carry openly does not mean that we should flaunt that right and potentially jeapordize the right for all CC permit holders at some point in the future which is exactly what may happen.
Why is open carry poor judgement? I see your profile says you're in Tennessee.From whichState did you get your CC permit?
 

kwikrnu

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cc10sbum wrote:
Furthermore, we all know that the orange tip is a universal sign that the weapon is not a real firearm. Use of this device on a real firearm can only be viewed as an intent to deceive other citizens and/or LE. This is also just plain dumb and ultimately will work against the CC rights that the Tn Legislature has extended to law abiding citizens of Tn. We should be thankful to the men and women of the Tn Legislature for giving us that right and we should not do stupid things like this that reflect adversely on the Tn Legislators that had the wisdom to grant us the right to carry. Stunts like this hurt all concerned.
Actually, we have a God given right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment recognizes the right. The Tennessee Constitution doesn't and saysmy God givenright may be regulated by the Legislature. Basically the Legislature took away my God given right and granted me a limited privilege in its place.
 

Task Force 16

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Leonard,

To my knowledge, you still have not explained why you want AP ammo for this AK pistol of yours. "Because it's legal to have" isn't going to cut it. Standard FMJ rifle rounds will pierce most Kevlar vest. Are you planing on facing off with a swat team that most likely will be wearing the porcelain plated flak jackets?

Does anyone else hear what I hear?

Tick.....tick....tick....tick
 

Hawkflyer

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kwikrnu wrote:
...SNIP
So, you say it wasn't the fact I carried this handgun people disagree with.  So, tell me exactly what clothes I should wear next time I carry the AK. I'll even remove the thread protector and put on a regular flash hider. I'll bet people will still be steamed I carried an AK even in a business suit.

I didn't ask for your support. I'm not the member of any RTKBA movement or cause.

I realize that your reading comprehension is very poor, but please go back and review ALL of my posts and provide ANY quote showing where I made ANY statement related to your cloths. I could not give a rats A$$ what you wear.

The fact is that you did (by your actions) disturb the peace and quiet of the park. That was your intent and that was the result. This entire incident started with a lie when you painted the muzzle of your firearm and you continue to lie even now. All of us have seen in your posts, your shock and dismay that pro firearms people are not accepting you with open arms because you are working to expand the RTKABA. Now you proclaim that you are in fact not involved in that at all.

At least we are now getting to the truth in that you admit that this is NOT now and never has been about the RTKABA or any support for that right on your part. It is all about getting your 15 minutes of fame AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OF THE REST OF US.
 
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