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detained in a TN State Park for 2.5 hours nearly arrested because cops don't know definition pistol

kwikrnu

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turbodog wrote:
If the firearm in the photo is yours, I can clearly see the confusion. That looks like a rifle with no shoulder stock to me too.

If you want to carry a handgun with less hassle, I would certainly go with something that looks more like a handgun and less like a rifle.

Just because it's legal to carry doesn't mean it's the right thing to carry.

Just my 2 cents bro.

Just because it is legal to carry a 9mm you shouldn't because it looks dangerous. Everyone should carry a .22lr handgun.:celebrate

The point is carrying a handgun in a park is okay so why was I detained 2 1/2 hours?
 

Mike

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kwikrnu wrote:
The point is carrying a handgun in a park is okay so why was I detained 2 1/2 hours?
Sounds like because you really pushed the limit as to what a "handgun" is and you appeared to the police to be disguising the gun as a toy with an orange cap, and carried like a rifle slung over your back at that - every judge in the world is going to cut the police a break on this, and give them qualified immunity.

Next time try a normal looking handgun in a proper holster.
 

turbodog

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kwikrnu wrote:
turbodog wrote:
If the firearm in the photo is yours, I can clearly see the confusion. That looks like a rifle with no shoulder stock to me too.

If you want to carry a handgun with less hassle, I would certainly go with something that looks more like a handgun and less like a rifle.

Just because it's legal to carry doesn't mean it's the right thing to carry.

Just my 2 cents bro.

Just because it is legal to carry a 9mm you shouldn't because it looks dangerous. Everyone should carry a .22lr handgun.:celebrate

The point is carrying a handgun in a park is okay so why was I detained 2 1/2 hours?

Most 9mm and .22 cal handguns look like the "common conception" of handguns, so I would expect no or minimal hassle from LEO in their case.But that thing you carried looks to much like an assaultrifle, whether legally a handgun or not. You say you carried it "slung" across your back at one point, yes? Most folks don't sling carry a sidearm on their back. That's a method of carrying a rifle not a pistol. I do understand where they were coming from in detaining you over it.

Feel free to carry what ya want brother but I'm just sayin don't be gettin pissed or surprised at the reaction to that particular firearm. The AK has a fearsome reputation in the world and that's what you're up against carrying that.

When you OC you automatically, wether intended or not, and wether you say a word about it or not, become a spokesman for the right to OC. Others will look at what you carry, how you carryit and how you deport yourself while carrying. While you might possibly be a great guy, polite, generous, kind to small children and animalsand all that, it still wouldn't make that firearm the right one for a spokesman to open carry because nobody sees you, all they see is the gun beloved of terrorists and drug thugs. Sorry bro, but that's a painful truth no matter how much YOU love that firearm.

See what I'm gettin at brother? No offense intended here.
 

Fallguy

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Mike wrote:
kwikrnu wrote:
The point is carrying a handgun in a park is okay so why was I detained 2 1/2 hours?
Sounds like because you really pushed the limit as to what a "handgun" is and you appeared to the police to be disguising the gun as a toy with an orange cap, and carried like a rifle slung over your back at that - every judge in the world is going to cut the police a break on this, and give them qualified immunity.

Next time try a normal looking handgun in a proper holster.

I agreealso being detained for 2 1/2 hours is probably better than simply being arrested and explaining it all to the judge.

I hopeyou get some sense of satisfaction from your complaint, but to be honest I'm not sure I can fault the LEOs in this matter. ...and I among the first to speak out if I feel they have overstepped any bounds.

But it doessounds like Detective Carter is thinking of carry in National parks in a couple of months on concealed carry only though.
 

aadvark

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In Tennessee, it is perfectly Legal to Open Carry a Long Gun, provided; that you are not a Felon, Drug Abuser, etc., and the Long Gun is Unloaded.

This is codified under 39-17-1307(a)(2)(A), but 39-17-1308(a)(1) and 39-171308(a)(5) both provide Lawful defenses from prosecution under 39-17-1307(a)(2)(A) as long as the Person in question is not a Person outlined under 39-17-1307(b)(1)-i.e. as stated above-Felons, and Drug Felons, in addition to Persons who are trying to committ a non/dangerous offense or who are prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(8) or 18 U.S.C.922(g)(9).

Furthermore 39-17-1307(e) provides an additonal defense for Persons who are in their own Private Motor Vehicles as long as the LongGun is not Loaded, but may be if they hold a Permit or are acting in Self-Defense.

Additionally, 39-17-1308(a)(3)(A) through 39-17-1308(a)(3)(C) provide exceptions, whether the same (Firearm/Long Gun) is Loaded or not while the Person in question is in/on/within theirown: 1. Home, 2. Land(Premises),or3. Place of Business, provided further, that the Person is not a Person who is ineligible under 39-17-1307(b)(1)-Felon, Drug Felon, or is otherwise ineligible under 18 U.S.C. 922(b) and 18 U.S.C. 922(g).
 

turbodog

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aadvark wrote:
In Tennessee, it is perfectly Legal to Open Carry a Long Gun, provided; that you are not a Felon, Drug Abuser, etc., and the Long Gun is Unloaded.

This is codified under 39-17-1307(a)(2)(A), but 39-17-1308(a)(1) and 39-171308(a)(5) both provide Lawful defenses from prosecution under 39-17-1307(a)(2)(A) as long as the Person in question is not a Person outlined under 39-17-1307(b)(1)-i.e. as stated above-Felons, and Drug Felons, in addition to Persons who are trying to committ a non/dangerous offense or who are prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(8) or 18 U.S.C.922(g)(9).

Furthermore 39-17-1307(e) provides an additonal defense for Persons who are in their own Private Motor Vehicles as long as the LongGun is not Loaded, but may be if they hold a Permit or are acting in Self-Defense.

Additionally, 39-17-1308(a)(3)(A) through 39-17-1308(a)(3)(C) provide exceptions, whether the same (Firearm/Long Gun) is Loaded or not while the Person in question is in/on/within theirown: 1. Home, 2. Land(Premises),or3. Place of Business, provided further, that the Person is not a Person who is ineligible under 39-17-1307(b)(1)-Felon, Drug Felon, or is otherwise ineligible under 18 U.S.C. 922(b) and 18 U.S.C. 922(g).
Yeah, but he's not claiming it is pistol, not a long gun and it was loaded according to his post.

oops, meant to say he is claiming it's a pistol, sorry.
 

rmansu2

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Maybe I'm the only one who noticed, but the signage does not correspond with the posted rules and regulations for the park.

"Including" on the sign, "excluding" in the rules online.
 

Fallguy

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rmansu2 wrote:
Maybe I'm the only one who noticed, but the signage does not correspond with the posted rules and regulations for the park.

"Including" on the sign, "excluding" in the rules online.

Funny thing is, the new law actually says state parks can not change their signs.

This was done so that there wouldn't be a fiscal note attached to the bill, the cost of having to change signs is one way it was defeated before.

The signs at most state parks does not "including" permit holders.
 

kwikrnu

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I filed a complaint with the regional director of the State Parks.

I need to file a complaint with Chief Serpas of the Metro PD.

I plan on writing all of the members of the metrocity council as well.

Nextweek whenI open carry the AK-47 in a Nashville State Park (Bicentennial Mall) I better not be detained longer than is necessary to check my permit and determine I'm not a safety hazard.I will have an audio recording as well.

If the Tennessee Legislature wanted to prohibit me from carry a custom colored handgun they would make custom colored handguns illegal. If the Legislature wanted to prohibit me from carrying a sig556, Kel-Tec plr-16, AR15 pistol or AK pistol they would have made them illegal to carry. I'm not doing anything illegal by carrying an AK47 pistol. A smith and wesson .460 revolver will kill someone just as dead. In fact a .22lr will kill someone too.I find it ridiculous that cops will make up laws on the spot justbecause they do not like how you look or what type of firearm you carry.
 

kwikrnu

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Fallguy wrote:
I agreealso being detained for 2 1/2 hours is probably better than simply being arrested and explaining it all to the judge.

I hopeyou get some sense of satisfaction from your complaint, but to be honest I'm not sure I can fault the LEOs in this matter. ...and I among the first to speak out if I feel they have overstepped any bounds.

But it doessounds like Detective Carter is thinking of carry in National parks in a couple of months on concealed carry only though.

Here is one ofthe problems in my mind. I showed my TN carry permit to the first armed ranger. He asked where I was parked and said I could go. He called and spoke with the second ranger. When I got to my car the second ranger / park manager jumped out of his truck with a shotgun aimed at me. I have open carried at this park before mand this same ranger asked me for my permit before. Thisranger who pointed his shotgunat me recognized me before he saw my permit. I apparently wasn't a threat to the first ranger, yet I was a threat to the second?



As far as Detective Carter from the Metro IA, he thought you couldn't open carry as in at all anywhere.
 

kwikrnu

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WCrawford wrote:
kwikrnu, I think you need to get an "adventure buddy". Alone you seem to be an idiot magnet.



Did you have your recorder with you for this? I'd love to hear the audio if available.
I guarantee that when I carry in Bicentennial Mall I will be stopped. You're more than welcome to come and watch or video.
 

Dreamer

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So who are you working for, The Brady's or Eric Holder?

You're either an agent provoceteur, or you are are just plain stupid and looking to stir up trouble.

What is it? Are you unemployed and you think a lawsuit settlement is better than a regular job? Or are you intentionally trying to make the rest of us--who try REALLY hard to go through life as rational, reasonable, low-profile 2A believers--look bad?

I certainly hope you don't cross the border into OUR fine state of NC. We've got enough troubles over here with the Raleigh and Jacksonville PD playing "lets make up some gun laws". We don't need yuck-a-pucks like you tugging their chains too.

You're gonna make the rest of us look bad, or you might end up getting yourself shot by some twitchy rookie.

And take that orange paint off your firearm. Under many state's laws, that would classify it as being "concealed" even if you had it hanging around your neck in plain view, because you are disguising it's true nature as a REAL firearm.

You are eventually gonna meet some LEO's that actually KNOW the law and have a DA who is well-versed enough to put your sorry behind in jail. Us folks who take OC seriously just don't need or want your sort of shenanigans...

Get a Glock or a 1911, and stop trying to "prove a point" before something REALLY unfortunate happens.
 

kwikrnu

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Dreamer wrote:
So who are you working for, The Brady's or Eric Holder?

You're either an agent provoceteur, or you are are just plain stupid and looking to stir up trouble.

What is it? Are you unemployed and you think a lawsuit settlement is better than a regular job? Or are you intentionally trying to make the rest of us--who try REALLY hard to go through life as rational, reasonable, low-profile 2A believers--look bad?

I certainly hope you don't cross the border into OUR fine state of NC. We've got enough troubles over here with the Raleigh and Jacksonville PD playing "lets make up some gun laws". We don't need yuck-a-pucks like you tugging their chains too.

You're gonna make the rest of us look bad, or you might end up getting yourself shot by some twitchy rookie.

And take that orange paint off your firearm. Under many state's laws, that would classify it as being "concealed" even if you had it hanging around your neck in plain view, because you are disguising it's true nature as a REAL firearm.

You are eventually gonna meet some LEO's that actually KNOW the law and have a DA who is well-versed enough to put your sorry behind in jail. Us folks who take OC seriously just don't need or want your sort of shenanigans...

Get a Glock or a 1911, and stop trying to "prove a point" before something REALLY unfortunate happens.



The only unfortunate thing that has happened is that I was held longer than was necesary.

It is legal to custom paint my handgun. My handgun is legal to carry.
 
M

McX

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i don't know. it's a right, but..............i kinda go with dreamer. too over the top. evil looking machine. even i would glance. sheep will stampede! at least you got an "held you too long" out of them, and your rights prevailed. kinda the reason i don't go public with my hipoint- big and noticeable, i must wait and obtain a precision shooting instrument- so that my perception to the sheep is more quiet. but that is me. congrats that your rights won out. thanks for doing the dance with them for the cause.
 

Sonora Rebel

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Dreamer wrote:
So who are you working for, The Brady's or Eric Holder?

You're either an agent provoceteur, or you are are just plain stupid and looking to stir up trouble.

What is it? Are you unemployed and you think a lawsuit settlement is better than a regular job? Or are you intentionally trying to make the rest of us--who try REALLY hard to go through life as rational, reasonable, low-profile 2A believers--look bad?

I certainly hope you don't cross the border into OUR fine state of NC. We've got enough troubles over here with the Raleigh and Jacksonville PD playing "lets make up some gun laws". We don't need yuck-a-pucks like you tugging their chains too.

You're gonna make the rest of us look bad, or you might end up getting yourself shot by some twitchy rookie.

And take that orange paint off your firearm. Under many state's laws, that would classify it as being "concealed" even if you had it hanging around your neck in plain view, because you are disguising it's true nature as a REAL firearm.

You are eventually gonna meet some LEO's that actually KNOW the law and have a DA who is well-versed enough to put your sorry behind in jail. Us folks who take OC seriously just don't need or want your sort of shenanigans...

Get a Glock or a 1911, and stop trying to "prove a point" before something REALLY unfortunate happens.
The 'orange tip' is a giveaway that this guy's a goof. Any 'banger' with a .25 Raven could light him up before he could ever bring that thing to bear. He does indeed make the rest of us look bad.
 

Liberty4Ever

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I completely understand the concept of open carry to push the envelope and make a point, and push back against gun laws that serve no legitimate purpose. I have a PLR-16, which is a large .223 pistol in a class similar to your AK pistol. I've considered open carrying it for political and educational purposes, but I haven't done so yet because in me estimate, there hasn't been an occasion where openly carrying the PLR-16 would result in a net gain for gun rights. I may find an opportunity in the future, though. There is also a PLR-22, the .22 LR version that looks almost exactly like the PLR-16, and that opens possibilities for educating people about gun laws based on appearance, or enforcement that's based on appearance. My goal would be to demonstrate that a particular law makes no sense and only serves to create enforcement problems and deny us our unalienable right to keep and bear arms.

One of my complaints with the way you were treated was the way the first ranger let you go but made a radio call to set up an armed ambush. I understand that he probably felt under gunned and thought he was being smart to arrange for someone with a shotgun to ambush you. To me, you had behaved legally and answered his questions and been cooperative. If he still believed you were engaged in illegal behavior, he should have had enough information from you to call in and instead of setting up an ambush, first check out your story to determine the legality of your actions, rather than assuming you were guilty.

However, I believe you engaged in duplicitous behavior first when you painted the muzzle of an AK-47 pistol bright orange which is universally recognized as signifying a non-lethal device such as an airsoft. Yes, you may have the legal right to paint the muzzle of an AK-47 pistol airsoft orange, but it's a deliberately act of deception, and that gets the encounter off to a bad start. You have essentially opened with a lie, and that is almost certain to engender distrust.

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to carry an AK pistol and educate the public and law enforcement agents that an AK pistol is a pistol and is legal to be carried openly in Tennessee, you shouldn't paint the muzzle orange to fool people into thinking it's an airsoft pistol. A deception such as that does not reflect well on responsible gun owners. I have no problem with your carrying of an AK-47 pistol. I'd argue that an AK-47 rifle should be legal to carry too (as it is in Kentucky, for example), but I am bothered by the inherent lie of the orange muzzle. At best, it's an ill advised joke. It's also likely to result in more convoluted gun laws. If the complaint you filed with the police department gets enough attention and the wrong people learn that you disguised an AK-47 pistol as a toy, then Tennessee is likely to have laws passed that prohibit orange muzzles on real firearms. Laws like that are passed as a proposed remedy to a problem, in an effort to legislate common sense. That's not possible, but it doesn't prevent them from trying.

My opinion? Carry the AK-47 if you like. Explain the law to law enforcement officers when you're stopped. Printed literature may help educate them. Don't act squirelly or twitchy or hostile. Lose the orange paint.
 

kwikrnu

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Liberty4Ever wrote:
I completely understand the concept of open carry to push the envelope and make a point, and push back against gun laws that serve no legitimate purpose. I have a PLR-16, which is a large .223 pistol in a class similar to your AK pistol. I've considered open carrying it for political and educational purposes, but I haven't done so yet because in me estimate, there hasn't been an occasion where openly carrying the PLR-16 would result in a net gain for gun rights. I may find an opportunity in the future, though. There is also a PLR-22, the .22 LR version that looks almost exactly like the PLR-16, and that opens possibilities for educating people about gun laws based on appearance, or enforcement that's based on appearance. My goal would be to demonstrate that a particular law makes no sense and only serves to create enforcement problems and deny us our unalienable right to keep and bear arms.

One of my complaints with the way you were treated was the way the first ranger let you go but made a radio call to set up an armed ambush. I understand that he probably felt under gunned and thought he was being smart to arrange for someone with a shotgun to ambush you. To me, you had behaved legally and answered his questions and been cooperative. If he still believed you were engaged in illegal behavior, he should have had enough information from you to call in and instead of setting up an ambush, first check out your story to determine the legality of your actions, rather than assuming you were guilty.

However, I believe you engaged in duplicitous behavior first when you painted the muzzle of an AK-47 pistol bright orange which is universally recognized as signifying a non-lethal device such as an airsoft. Yes, you may have the legal right to paint the muzzle of an AK-47 pistol airsoft orange, but it's a deliberately act of deception, and that gets the encounter off to a bad start. You have essentially opened with a lie, and that is almost certain to engender distrust.

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to carry an AK pistol and educate the public and law enforcement agents that an AK pistol is a pistol and is legal to be carried openly in Tennessee, you shouldn't paint the muzzle orange to fool people into thinking it's an airsoft pistol. A deception such as that does not reflect well on responsible gun owners. I have no problem with your carrying of an AK-47 pistol. I'd argue that an AK-47 rifle should be legal to carry too (as it is in Kentucky, for example), but I am bothered by the inherent lie of the orange muzzle. At best, it's an ill advised joke. It's also likely to result in more convoluted gun laws. If the complaint you filed with the police department gets enough attention and the wrong people learn that you disguised an AK-47 pistol as a toy, then Tennessee is likely to have laws passed that prohibit orange muzzles on real firearms. Laws like that are passed as a proposed remedy to a problem, in an effort to legislate common sense. That's not possible, but it doesn't prevent them from trying.

My opinion? Carry the AK-47 if you like. Explain the law to law enforcement officers when you're stopped. Printed literature may help educate them. Don't act squirelly or twitchy or hostile. Lose the orange paint.

I don't consider it a deception. The first ranger asked if it was an airsoft. I told him, "no itis a real ak-47 pistol." I didn't hide the fact that it was real. I did not tell anyone it was anything other than a real firearm.

I may lose the orange paint when my nfa paperwork comes back. It will cost more than twice what the firearm cost and I'd be able to use it with a RFB...
 

midiwall

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kwikrnu wrote:
I don't consider it a deception. The first ranger asked if it was an airsoft. I told him, "no itis a real ak-47 pistol." I didn't hide the fact that it was real. I did not tell anyone it was anything other than a real firearm.
Yes, you DID hide the fact that it was real - you painted the tip so that it would appear to be an Airsoft gun.

That's deception, and it plays into the rangers reaction because of how you answered "is that an Airsoft gun?". When you said "no, it's an AK-47 pistol", I'm surprised he didn't drop you right then and there. That answer would have completely changed his line of thinking. He immediately went into "why is this guy walking around with a AK-47 pistol painted to look like an Airsoft gun?".

That ranger is to be commended. He did exactly the right thing. He reacted calmly and let you go on your way. He called ahead, described what happened, and the force pulled together to react was correct. The other rangers and the LEOs had full authority to detain you until they knew _exactly_ what was going on.


I'll state for the record that my position in this would be very different if you hadn't of painted that tip. I would have still thought you were asking for it, but you would have been (more) within your rights. Once you added that paint, you changed the game.
 
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