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Thread: Difference between a rifle and pistol and how to prove it to cops who arrest you for open carrying ?

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    I carry a handgun( AK47 ) that to me looks like a handgun. It is brand new manufacture and came from the factory as a pistol. On the form 4473 I filled out it is listed as a pistol. It meets the classic definition of handgun because it has no shoulder stock. The problem is that cops, for whatever reason think it is a rifle. I was detained yesterday for 2.5 hours because 9 cops (3 parkrangers and 6 metro nashville police) thought it was a rifle.



    I know there has got to be someone out there who carries a sig556, kel-tec plr-16, ar15 pistol, or AK-47 pistol who has thought about this problem. How do you prove it is pistol when the cops say it is a rifle?

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    its legal to OC a handgun but not a rifle?

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    I carry a handgun( AK47 ) that to me looks like a handgun. It is brand new manufacture and came from the factory as a pistol. On the form 4473 I filled out it is listed as a pistol. It meets the classic definition of handgun because it has no shoulder stock. The problem is that cops, for whatever reason think it is a rifle. I was detained yesterday for 2.5 hours because 9 cops (3 parkrangers and 6 metro nashville police) thought it was a rifle.



    I know there has got to be someone out there who carries a sig556, kel-tec plr-16, ar15 pistol, or AK-47 pistol who has thought about this problem. How do you prove it is pistol when the cops say it is a rifle?
    All I can say, if you want to PROVE, that the gun is a pistol, carry the statute around with you and also a copy of your 4473 (I hope you have a copy), and perhaps some documentation noting that it was not orignally designed as a rifle but as a pistol. Obviously the short stock, handguard, and absence of a buttstock and its overall length makes it a pistol, however, the absence of the buttstock alone seems to exclude it from the statute as a rifle or a short barrel rifle since it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

    I can somewhat understand the reaction of LEO's. Not everyone knows the law fully and not everyone fully understands a machine pistol (such as perfectly legal Ingrams and Uzis).

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    I know the chapter definition for a rifle. I told them where it was. I seriously think cops are mentally deficient sometimes. The code says a rifle has a stock. My gun had no stock.So it is clear it is a handgun right? There is no evidence it has a stockso where is their PC to say that it is a rifle?

    As far as 4473's I don't ask for and never have asked for a copy of one. Maybe I'll try to get a copy from the dealer who did the transfer.

    I wonder if the manufacturer will send me a letter stating the firearm is a handgun?



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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Sometimes the swimming is easier a little closer to the mainstream. Certainly you can carry whatever you choose, but the more "out there" your choice is the more likely it is to draw adverse attention.

    I believe that you have chosen this particular weapon because you want to draw attention to yourself. It would seem that you have achieved your intended goal. People should be careful what they wish for, because they just might get it.
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    I have been hassled by cops before just not to this extent. Are you saying that I should just conceal carry?

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    I wouldn't go so far to say just conceal carry. Just be aware that carrying an out of the ordinary weapon will draw attention and either be ready for that or switch to a less attention getting weapon.

    I carry according to what I feel like during that day.. my .38 seems to draw little attention carried openly and noone hardly noticed my black on black .45. A pistol variant of the AK or other similar will catch the eye of LEO as well as panicky public 911 callers. Its like driving the classic arrest me red car.. you may be perfectly legal but the 'man' is going to be following you.

    Its just how it is really. I have ideas for days I don't want to draw the attention and then there are days I plan on being really out there and visible.. so just whatever it is you carry or do, be prepared.

    Rev. Jim

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    I have to agree with HawkFlyer on this one...

    It's one thing to buy and own a specific handgun because it's a weird novelty, and you think it's cool. It's another thing altogether to carry something like this around OC. Do you have a holster for it? Who makes a holster for a pistol version of the AK-47?

    You didn't get hassled because you were carrying, you got hassled because of WHAT you were carrying, and from the sounds of it, you sort of "courted" the encounter, because you've been hassled before, and now you're carrying a miniturized AK-style "handgun".

    I mean, really, WTF did you THINK would happen?...

    As Tommy Lee Jones said in that movie "Get rid of that Chrome-plated Sissy Pistol, and get a Glock..."

    I would LOVE to carry around a dual brace (that's 4 pistols--2 on each side) of matched Scottish Wheel Locks with gold inlays and cloisonne enamel work. It would look WAY cool, and would certainly be a "statement". But it would be neither practical or prudent (even though 4 rounds of .50 caliber ball would be VERY effective as "defense rounds!).

    So I carry a double-stack 1911 instead. It does the job, doesn't draw too much attention, and there is NO room for discussion about it's status as a legal, appropriate firearm for lawful carry.

    Weird guns draw attention, and we're not OCing to draw attention to ourselves. We do it because it's a RIGHT, not because our firearms are some sort of fashion statement.

    If you live somewhere that requires you carry a miniturized AK-47 to maintain your safety, then I would HIGHLY recommend that you put MORE effort into finding different living arrangements, and LESS time into finding wacky, over-the-top "novelty" firearms.

    Put your ego away, son, and get a Glock, Sig, Taurus, or 1911 like everyone else...
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    I agree with Hawkflyer and JURGII, if you want to look like a commando with your AK or AR pistol, expect to get hassled. If it were me, and I had one of those weapons, I'd leave it at home, until circumstances actually warranted dragging it out, like when the STHF. I personally think carrying such weapons for SD right now is overkill.

    Dang, I was worried I might get unwanted attention for carrying my SA .45LC hawgleg. The AK magazine alone is damn near a big as my six shooter.

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    JBURGII wrote:
    I wouldn't go so far to say just conceal carry. Its like driving the classic arrest me red car.. you may be perfectly legal but the 'man' is going to be following you.
    I don't care if the man stops me to check my permit. I don't care if he calls it in to make sure my permit is valid. I don't have a problem with him making sure I am not a safety risk for myself or others. I have a problem with a 2.5 hour unlawful detention. It doesn't matter how red or fast my car is they still can't stop me unless I break the law.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Weird guns draw attention, and we're not OCing to draw attention to ourselves. We do it because it's a RIGHT, not because our firearms are some sort of fashion statement.

    I am carrying this ak-47 pistol because it is my right.


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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I agree with Hawkflyer and JURGII, if you want to look like a commando with your AK or AR pistol, expect to get hassled.



    Why should I "expect toget hassled" for breaking no law?

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I agree with Hawkflyer and JURGII, if you want to look like a commando with your AK or AR pistol, expect to get hassled.
    Why should I "expect toget hassled" for breaking no law?
    You take the position "because it is my right." OK, it is your right.

    Is it good for the cause at a time when we are making great strides - don't think so.

    Our focus is carrying for self defense, education and hopefully normalizing the event.

    Yata hey

    Edited to soften response.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Let's be careful not to make the antis arguments for them and pick off weapons as illegitimate or unsuitable for defensive carry. Not to say that certain weapons can draw more attention, one should be prepared for that. Why do they do that? Probably because when one carries an AK pistol it probably distinguishes one as not an LEO, and in my experience many will fall into a cognitive dissonance and assume an OCer is a LEO. I know I've been asked many times that when I OC who I was with. So really if we are to change that paradigm it takes breaking the norm by some brave folks. So lets not be so hard on the OP if he does something different, by pushing the limits he helps reset the center making it easier for us 'normal' OCers.

    As for the OPs concern about proving the legality of the pistol, that can be tricky. This is not the first time I heard of this problem. One guy had to prove he didn't have an untaxed Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) which is tricky by the side of the road. I guess I would try to find and make a folder or documents, ads, ect. about the weapon, that might help.

    Personally I'm contemplating an AR pistol build and I will do it around a receiver marked as a pistol, still may not make a difference but it's just to be a trunk gun anyhow.

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    longwatch wrote:
    Let's be careful not to make the antis arguments for them and pick off weapons as illegitimate or unsuitable for defensive carry. Not to say that certain weapons can draw more attention, one should be prepared for that. Why do they do that? Probably because when one carries an AK pistol it probably distinguishes one as not an LEO, and in my experience many will fall into a cognitive dissonance and assume an OCer is a LEO. I know I've been asked many times that when I OC who I was with. So really if we are to change that paradigm it takes breaking the norm by some brave folks. So lets not be so hard on the OP if he does something different, by pushing the limits he helps reset the center making it easier for us 'normal' OCers.

    As for the OPs concern about proving the legality of the pistol, that can be tricky. This is not the first time I heard of this problem. One guy had to prove he didn't have an untaxed Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) which is tricky by the side of the road. I guess I would try to find and make a folder or documents, ads, ect. about the weapon, that might help.

    Personally I'm contemplating an AR pistol build and I will do it around a receiver marked as a pistol, still may not make a difference but it's just to be a trunk gun anyhow.
    I think you understand where I am coming from. If a handgun is legal to carry then why shouldn't I carry?

    I have been trying to choose a handgun to carry for several months. I was going to build an AR, but decided not to. One reason was because if I bought a receiver it would be listed as "other" on the 4473. I chose not to buy a used AK pistol, because there was no way to know if it had ever been a rifle. I didn't buy a plr-16 because of ammo cost. I didn't buy a sig 556 because it cost too much for ammo and the actual pistol. When I saw these brand new draco ak pistols selling new for $349 I jumped. They were out of the $349 ones, but I got this for $389.

    I carry the AK-47 pistol on an urban ert two point quick release convertible sling.

    If I post a pic the thread will go off topic, so I won't post a pic. I have been kicked off two forums today because of this ak pistol and would rather not get kicked off this forum, but internet forums are not my existence. The incident happened. It is being investigated by IA and the State Parks departments. When I get the reports I'll post copies.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Let's be careful not to make the antis arguments for them and pick off weapons as illegitimate or unsuitable for defensive carry. Not to say that certain weapons can draw more attention, one should be prepared for that. Why do they do that? Probably because when one carries an AK pistol it probably distinguishes one as not an LEO, and in my experience many will fall into a cognitive dissonance and assume an OCer is a LEO. I know I've been asked many times that when I OC who I was with. So really if we are to change that paradigm it takes breaking the norm by some brave folks. So lets not be so hard on the OP if he does something different, by pushing the limits he helps reset the center making it easier for us 'normal' OCers.

    As for the OPs concern about proving the legality of the pistol, that can be tricky. This is not the first time I heard of this problem. One guy had to prove he didn't have an untaxed Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) which is tricky by the side of the road. I guess I would try to find and make a folder or documents, ads, ect. about the weapon, that might help.

    Personally I'm contemplating an AR pistol build and I will do it around a receiver marked as a pistol, still may not make a difference but it's just to be a trunk gun anyhow.
    I think you understand where I am coming from. If a handgun is legal to carry then why shouldn't I carry?

    I have been trying to choose a handgun to carry for several months. I was going to build an AR, but decided not to. One reason was because if I bought a receiver it would be listed as "other" on the 4473. I chose not to buy a used AK pistol, because there was no way to know if it had ever been a rifle. I didn't buy a plr-16 because of ammo cost. I didn't buy a sig 556 because it cost too much for ammo and the actual pistol. When I saw these brand new draco ak pistols selling new for $349 I jumped. They were out of the $349 ones, but I got this for $389.

    I carry the AK-47 pistol on an urban ert two point quick release convertible sling.

    If I post a pic the thread will go off topic, so I won't post a pic. I have been kicked off two forums today because of this ak pistol and would rather not get kicked off this forum, but internet forums are not my existence. The incident happened. It is being investigated by IA and the State Parks departments. When I get the reports I'll post copies.
    Be sure you redact any personal info - appreciate your response.

    Not trying to run you down the road. Stay around and maybe we'll learn something from each other. :?

    I will edit my previous accordingly.

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    kwikrnu wrote"
    I am carrying this ak-47 pistol because it is my right.
    It's my right to carry a gold-plated .50cal Desert Eagle with pearl grips and an EO Tech sight too, but I doubt many folks would consider it either appropriate or functional as a defensive firearm...

    Have you even attempted to fire this AK pistol in a simulated "defense" situation? I've never fired on, but I have fired MP-5's and AR-15 pistols, and those buggers are about as difficult to keep "on target" as Sara Brady in a 2A discussion...

    I just don't see one single benefit (with the exception of sheer visual intimidation) of carrying such a firearm. Impractical, cumbersome, hard to control, and constantly in the way of normal daily functioning. Carrying such a firearm, in such a manner is treading dangerously close to a flagrant GAttTotP violation...

    And carrying it on an "urban ert 2-pt harness" in public just REEKS of Mall-Ninja...

    Again, I'll reiterate:

    If you live somewhere that requires you carry a miniaturized AK-47 to maintain your safety, then I would HIGHLY recommend that you put MORE effort into finding different living arrangements, and LESS time into finding wacky, over-the-top "novelty" firearms.

    Get a Glock or a 1911, a couple spare mags, and a nice Serpa or Galco, or Bianchi holster. It will be easier to carry, easier to handle, cheaper to feed, and you won't have to worry about over-penetrations.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    kwikrnu wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I agree with Hawkflyer and JURGII, if you want to look like a commando with your AK or AR pistol, expect to get hassled.



    Why should I "expect toget hassled" for breaking no law?
    OK, so this weapon falls under the legal definition of a pistol. Legally, you have a right to carry it with a HCP.

    Is it practical, as a self defense carry weapon, under normal circumstances? Maybe, if you're expecting to engage a heavily armed gang or terrorist group.

    Let's compare this AK pistol to a "normal" handgun.

    It looks like something that a covert ops team might carry on a missioninto hostile territory.
    "Normal" handguns don't.

    The weight of the AK pistol would seem to make it difficult to hold up to shoot at arms length.
    "Normal" handguns are lighter for this purpose.

    The rounds are definitely going to over penetrate and can probably penetrate most LEO body armor. Not a good round to be firing in a public place.
    "Normal" handgun rounds aren't as likely to over penetrate or pass through LEO body armor.

    Now, let me ask you to think about something here. Suppose you're in a Walmart and a couple middle eastern looking men come in with AK 47 pistols slung accross their chest. What is the first thing that is going to run through your head? OR suppose a couple of people walk into a bank that your in with weapons like these? Now, in both scenarios the persons carrying those AK 47 pistols may be legal in every way and have no ill intent, but you don't know that. Now look at these scenarios through the eyes of the average citizen, with average mindset, if you can. The same people we are trying to de-sensitize to the sight of LAC carrying "normal" handguns in public.

    Think about it. Reeeaaalllly think about it.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    Weird guns draw attention, and we're not OCing to draw attention to ourselves. We do it because it's a RIGHT, not because our firearms are some sort of fashion statement.
    Â*

    I am carrying this ak-47 pistol because it is my right.
    Can you hit anything?
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    kwikrnu wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Let's be careful not to make the antis arguments for them and pick off weapons as illegitimate or unsuitable for defensive carry. Not to say that certain weapons can draw more attention, one should be prepared for that. Why do they do that? Probably because when one carries an AK pistol it probably distinguishes one as not an LEO, and in my experience many will fall into a cognitive dissonance and assume an OCer is a LEO. I know I've been asked many times that when I OC who I was with. So really if we are to change that paradigm it takes breaking the norm by some brave folks. So lets not be so hard on the OP if he does something different, by pushing the limits he helps reset the center making it easier for us 'normal' OCers.

    As for the OPs concern about proving the legality of the pistol, that can be tricky. This is not the first time I heard of this problem. One guy had to prove he didn't have an untaxed Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) which is tricky by the side of the road. I guess I would try to find and make a folder or documents, ads, ect. about the weapon, that might help.

    Personally I'm contemplating an AR pistol build and I will do it around a receiver marked as a pistol, still may not make a difference but it's just to be a trunk gun anyhow.
    I think you understand where I am coming from. If a handgun is legal to carry then why shouldn't I carry?

    I have been trying to choose a handgun to carry for several months. I was going to build an AR, but decided not to. One reason was because if I bought a receiver it would be listed as "other" on the 4473. I chose not to buy a used AK pistol, because there was no way to know if it had ever been a rifle. I didn't buy a plr-16 because of ammo cost. I didn't buy a sig 556 because it cost too much for ammo and the actual pistol. When I saw these brand new draco ak pistols selling new for $349 I jumped. They were out of the $349 ones, but I got this for $389.

    I carry the AK-47 pistol on an urban ert two point quick release convertible sling.

    If I post a pic the thread will go off topic, so I won't post a pic. I have been kicked off two forums today because of this ak pistol and would rather not get kicked off this forum, but internet forums are not my existence. The incident happened. It is being investigated by IA and the State Parks departments. When I get the reports I'll post copies.
    Now after reading the thread of the incident and where you painted the tip of your pistol orange so the police might hesitate to shoot you, that is something while an ernest effort to protect yourself is too easily misconstrued as criminal intent.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I agree with Hawkflyer and JURGII, if you want to look like a commando with your AK or AR pistol, expect to get hassled.



    Why should I "expect toget hassled" for breaking no law?
    OK, so this weapon falls under the legal definition of a pistol. Legally, you have a right to carry it with a HCP.

    Is it practical, as a self defense carry weapon, under normal circumstances? Maybe, if you're expecting to engage a heavily armed gang or terrorist group.

    Let's compare this AK pistol to a "normal" handgun.

    It looks like something that a covert ops team might carry on a missioninto hostile territory.
    "Normal" handguns don't.

    The weight of the AK pistol would seem to make it difficult to hold up to shoot at arms length.
    "Normal" handguns are lighter for this purpose.

    The rounds are definitely going to over penetrate and can probably penetrate most LEO body armor. Not a good round to be firing in a public place.
    "Normal" handgun rounds aren't as likely to over penetrate or pass through LEO body armor.

    Now, let me ask you to think about something here. Suppose you're in a Walmart and a couple middle eastern looking men come in with AK 47 pistols slung accross their chest. What is the first thing that is going to run through your head? OR suppose a couple of people walk into a bank that your in with weapons like these? Now, in both scenarios the persons carrying those AK 47 pistols may be legal in every way and have no ill intent, but you don't know that. Now look at these scenarios through the eyes of the average citizen, with average mindset, if you can. The same people we are trying to de-sensitize to the sight of LAC carrying "normal" handguns in public.

    Think about it. Reeeaaalllly think about it.
    Keep it mind if a pistol is available and lawful to carry, eventually somebody somewhere will OC it. As in this case, and we as a movement need to decide whether there is a limit to the right of OC or not.

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    kwikrnu... You're just grandstanding. 'Hope you've read all of these comments 'cause they're dead on. Yeah... it's your 'right'... we know that. Is it a responsible (even practical) choice for self defense? No.

    It's a 'look at me... look whatI got' mall ninja accessory attention getter. OK... so you got the attention, now you're snivelin' about it. 'Seems like carryin' a gun is a novelty to you. 'It'syour right'.... OK... but is it reasonable? I just took a look at AK based 'pistols' http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Pistols.php'n have no doubtswhy you were 'detained' while waltzin' around with one of these in public.

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    kwikrnu,

    I had a question about your intent during your last post, but unfortunatlely, the thread was locked while I was writing my question, so I didn't get to ask it.

    You commented about painting the barrel of your AK orange so it would look like a toy.

    Now you ask why you're getting hassled about OC'ing your AK.

    When I carry, I fully realize that I AM A REPRESENTATIVE OF ALL OPEN CARRIERS. I conduct myself in a manner that represents gun owners because people are looking at me and saying, "There's a guy carrying a gun. He's doing (insert action). All people who carry a gun must (insert previous action)."

    So, when I carry, I do so in a manner that shows the public what I believe a gun owner represents.

    What's the reason you are carrying?

    What are you trying to represent?

    You are in favor of taking the open carry movement forward and helping the cause, right?

    Could you explain how your actions are doing this?

    Just a few questionsI'd like to have answered asone of the people you are representing.


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    I have to poin out something, and someone already has.

    I know they build pistol models similar to the rifle versions, but at first glance and even upon investigation, it is not readily apparent.

    If you want to fast track your way out of a LEO encounter over your rifle caliber pistol, then carrysome documentation.

    Sure, you're with in your right, but that thing "looks" like an AK-47 with the buttstock either folder over (if one is looking at it from a different angle) or removed. Remember a rifle that has been converted into a pistol, by law is still a rifle and is also now illegal if it's overall length is too short. If police feel or make the claim that thismay possibly be the case, then they probably will investigate the gun. If you can show them that the carbine was not designed to readily take a stock or there was no stock there, then you may be able to go scott free quicker. I don't know.

    That is my opinion, I could be wrong.

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    First of all I don't represent any group I only represent myself.

    I have a handgun carry permit issued by the State of Tennessee.

    I believe I have the right to carry any handgun I wish where it is legal to carry.

    I believe I have the right to carry any handgun of any color I wish where it is legal to carry.

    Anyone who thinks that an AR pistol or an AK pistol or a sig556 pistol or a plr-16 pistol "looks" too dangerous to carry is against the Second Amendment.

    I do not believe the government should regulate the finish of firearms, but apparently some people do. If you feel that way then contact your government rep so they can write local or national laws regulating the color of firearms. Personally I do not like the hot pink anodized charter arms revolvers, but I do not attack people because they purchase the guns.

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