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Thread: "107 and counting: Killings by concealed handgun permit holders"

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    This is by Josh Sugarman with the Violence Prevention Center which is really the Brady Campaign.



    One month later and an additional 22 bodies.

    That's the latest tally from the Violence Policy Center's new on-line resource Concealed Carry Killers, which we launched last month to begin tracking killings by private citizens issued permits to carry concealed handguns resulting in murder-suicides, fatal accidents, or criminal charges against them.

    When we first launched the site, the initial tally of killings stood at eight dead law enforcement officers and 77 private citizens (including 10 shooters who killed themselves after an attack) since May 2007. Since then, the number of law enforcement officers has risen to nine for the period and the number of dead private citizens has jumped to 98 (including an additional two murderers who killed themselves after a shooting, bringing the total number of murder-suicides to 12).

    The most recent law enforcement officer allegedly gunned down by a concealed handgun permit holder was Alabama police officer Philip Davis. The circumstances, as detailed on the Concealed Carry Killers web site, were as follows:


    On December 3, 2009, Bart Johnson allegedly shot and killed Pelham, Alabama, police officer Philip Davis during a routine traffic stop. Officer Davis had stopped Johnson for speeding. According to videotape from the officer's patrol car, Davis and Johnson spoke briefly, and Davis then went to write Johnson a ticket. Upon his return, Johnson told Davis that his brother was a police officer. Officer Davis replied, "Why didn't you tell me that before? Let me have his name and number so I can tell him what happened." Then, "unprovoked and without a word, Johnson fired one shot, striking Davis in the face." Johnson fled the scene, abandoned his Acura, and attempted to break into another vehicle. When he was noticed by someone, Johnson displayed his gun and waived the person away. He was later picked up by his brother and surrendered to authorities. A local pharmacist, Johnson obtained a concealed weapons permit in 2007 and renewed it in 2008 and 2009. He is charged with capital murder.


    The most recent mass shooting identified in the update occurred in Florida on Thanksgiving Day and received widespread news coverage across the nation:



    On November 26, 2009, Paul Michael Merhige allegedly opened fire at his family's Thanksgiving dinner shooting six relatives, killing four. The deceased victims were his twin sisters (one of whom was pregnant, his 76-year-old aunt, and a six-year-old cousin. As he left the scene, Merhige was quoted by one witness as saying, "I have been waiting 20 years for this." Merhige then fled, and has since been featured on "America's Most Wanted." Merhige bought two pistols and a rifle the day before the shooting according to the gun shop owner who sold them to him. Merhige had a concealed handgun permit.
    At the direction of the gun lobby, most state systems that allow the carrying of concealed handguns in public by private citizens release little data about permit holders or the crimes they commit. Not surprisingly, those who bluster on about the "public service" provided by concealed handgun permit holders are the first to turn tail and run in the face of demands for detailed information from government agencies on permit holders: who they are and how they employ their weapons in the real world. Because after all, it's easier to trumpet something as a success when you actively work to hide its failure.




    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Every year at about this time the Bradies start winding up their rhetoric. This year they will be working very hard to demonize and slur conceal handgun permit holders. Every time a permit is issued the Bradies lose. As I am sure most of you know they have lost a lot lately.

    Stay vigilant.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    The hollow charge that information regarding permit holders is any way concealed is typical of the misinformationspread by the pathelogical liars of the Brady Bunch or whatever else they are called these days. If any citizen believes that a potentially dangerous person may or may not have a permit to carry, such person,with reasonable information against that individual, can report that information toany permit issuing authority. Such authority will investigate if a permit was issued and if the person is, oris not qualified or otherwise competant to continue his or her status as a permit holder.

    Anti-gun orgainzations are losing membership and support like no other time in the past. Sarah Brady organization had to merge with another wacko organization to survive. Sarah herself has been reduced to a pathetic old lady that people are tired of listening to. If it wasn't for a small number of very wealthy supporters, Violence Policy Center and other groups like them would not exist. It is one thing not to gain the support of conservatives, but the fact is, many otherwise liberals have turned a deaf ear to these organizations.





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    Conveniently left off the number of lives SAVED by concealed handgun permit holders.

    Go back to buggering little boys Josh - you won't win this one.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    How did the fact that they had a CCW facilitate the crime that they committed? Did it allow them to access a place where non-CCW holders would not have been allowed to posses a weapon?
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I'd be interested to see how many people are killed by people ILLEGALLY carrying concealed.

    I'll bet dollars to donuts that THOSE numbers are literally exponentially higher...

    But you won't hear about that from these goofballs. They don't want to tell the truth about CRIMINALS, they just want to cherry pick the "bad apples" to make the rest of us who are law-abiding look bad...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionŚand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    RockyMtnScotsman wrote:
    Conveniently left off the number of lives SAVED by concealed handgun permit holders.

    Go back to buggering little boys Josh - you won't win this one.
    Hmmmm. This gives me an idea. Why don't we publish the criminal records of these anti-gun advocates? Need to give the project a catchy alliterative name much like "Concealed Carry Killers" or a former member's phrase "Open Carry Extremists".

    Maybe "pistol prohibitionist perverts" but there are probably more of them with stuff like drunk driving arrests and such. "Handgun-grabbing hypocrites"? Ideas?

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Law-breaking Leftists?

    Hoplophobic Hypocrites?

    Pistol-Persecuting Perverts?

    Gun Control Criminals?

    Communitarian Convicts?

    The possibilities are endless...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionŚand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Link to article in O.P.?

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    This is what I like best about their website:






    Legal Disclaimer



    DISCLAIMER: The information contained on this website has been prepared as a service to the Internet community and is not intended to constitute legal advice. Use of this website, including use of the Request Assistance feature, does not create an attorney-client relationship. Legal Community Against Violence has used reasonable efforts in collecting, preparing and providing quality information and material, but does not warrant or guarantee the accuracy, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to this website. Users of information from this website or links do so at their own risk, and should consult an attorney if engaging in the actual drafting, enactment or litigation of any regulatory or related matter.




    Nice. In otherwords, we aren't liable for the accuracy of our data or findings.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    This is what I like best about their website:






    Legal Disclaimer



    DISCLAIMER: The information contained on this website has been prepared as a service to the Internet community and is not intended to constitute legal advice. Use of this website, including use of the Request Assistance feature, does not create an attorney-client relationship. Legal Community Against Violence has used reasonable efforts in collecting, preparing and providing quality information and material, but does not warrant or guarantee the accuracy, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to this website. Users of information from this website or links do so at their own risk, and should consult an attorney if engaging in the actual drafting, enactment or litigation of any regulatory or related matter.




    Nice. In otherwords, we aren't liable for the accuracy of our data or findings.
    I was an investigator for a law firm for a while, so let me try to translate that:

    "We are not lawyers, we are just puttting up our casual observations and opinions out on the Net and presenting them, of course, as fact. If you ask us for advice, remember that it is free advice and as such is worth every penny. We really, really want you to believe everything we say here; but actually we neither know nor care whether the facts back up our opinions, so if you quote us at a party and get laughed at; or if you use something we have told you as a basis for any action whatsoever and said action blows up in your face, don't come whining back to us. If you need legal advice, ask a lawyer. Us? We wouldn't know a Corpus Juris from a corpus delecti; even if we do throw stuff like that around as if we do.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    There are about 2 to 2.5 million defensive uses of guns annually. http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html This is only one cite.

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    Nice Alex

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Hysterical Hyperbole Hacks

    Simpler translation of the disclaimer: don't call us, we'll call you (NOT)
    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    How could he forget to count the DC Cop who drew his gun and threatened
    innocent children playing in the snow this weekend.
    Oh, that's a good crime by the good guys, so doesn't count.:X
    Any bets that this idiot also thinks global warming is settled and we did it.

    You would think that the hot heads would figure out if every one has a gun
    and shoots themselves the CO2 would go down, and the planet saved.
    But you can't have a good use for guns for any reason I guess.

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    Regular Member SAvage410's Avatar
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    I posted this in a response in the Virginia thread:

    OK -- just for grins, let's assume that the VPC's numbers are legit (I said assume folks ).

    I've heard Philip Van Cleave, VCDL president, state that there are approximately 6 million concealed cary permit holders in the US. 107 murders divided by 6 million is 0.00178333%. So we have 17 thousandths of one percent of permit holders who have "done a bad thing".

    Per the FBI, there were 14,180 murders in 2008 (source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/expanded_information/homicide.html)

    In 2008, the estimated US population was 304,374,846 (source: http://www.census.gov/popest/national/files/NST_EST2009_ALLDATA.csv).

    The national "homicide percentage" then, is 0.00465873%. Comparing the two numbers, we find that the "CHP homicide rate" is 38.2793% (Say 38.3% for grins) of that of the overall rate for the US as a whole.

    Granted, murder is tragic, without question; still, it does not seem to me that we have a raging epidemic here, and especially not with CHP holders. Comments?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    c45man wrote:
    The hollow charge that information regarding permit holders is any way concealed is typical of the misinformation┬*spread by the pathelogical liars of the Brady Bunch or whatever else they are called these days.┬* If any citizen believes that a potentially dangerous person may or may not have a permit to carry, such person,with reasonable information against that individual, can report that information to┬*any permit issuing authority.┬* Such authority will investigate if a permit was issued and if the person is, or┬*is not qualified or otherwise competant to continue his or her status as a permit holder.

    Anti-gun orgainzations are losing membership and support like no other time in the past.┬* Sarah Brady organization had┬* to merge with another wacko organization to survive.┬* Sarah herself has been reduced to a pathetic old lady that people are tired of listening to.┬* If it wasn't for a small number of very wealthy supporters, Violence Policy Center and other groups like them would not exist.┬* It is one thing not to gain the support of conservatives, but the fact is, many otherwise liberals have turned a deaf ear to these organizations.
    It's true. My mother, who long was swayed by the "liberal" anti-gun claptrap, has finally gotten sick of all the B.S.

    Now, she's finally glad I have guns, and I have nobody to thank for that but the relentless shrillery of the Brady Bunch (and my own ability to argue strong points at the timeliest opportunities ).

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    SAvage410 wrote:
    I posted this in a response in the Virginia thread:

    OK -- just for grins, let's assume that the VPC's numbers are legit (I said assume folks ).

    I've heard Philip Van Cleave, VCDL president, state that there are approximately 6 million concealed cary permit holders in the US.┬* 107 murders divided by 6 million is 0.00178333%.┬* So we have 17 thousandths of one percent of permit holders who have "done a bad thing".

    Per the FBI, there were 14,180 murders in 2008 (source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/expanded_information/homicide.html)

    In 2008, the estimated US population was 304,374,846 (source: http://www.census.gov/popest/national/files/NST_EST2009_ALLDATA.csv).

    The national "homicide percentage" then, is 0.00465873%.┬* Comparing the two numbers, we find that the "CHP homicide rate" is 38.2793% (Say 38.3% for grins) of that of the overall rate for the US as a whole.

    Granted, murder is tragic, without question; still, it does not seem to me that we have a raging epidemic here, and especially not with CHP holders.┬* Comments?
    Seriously, watch The Wire, and see how the negative incentives created by prohibition, and the lack of legal protections offered to anyone in any way involved with drugs, to see exactly why the prohibition of drugs is essentially the allowing factor in the viscous feedback loop of urban violence.

    We don't have a gun problem, or a drug problem. What we have is a prohibition problem.

    Liberty-lovers everywhere take note: more control cannot be the solution when control is itself the whole of the problem.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Comments? Certainly. The Brady Bunch (defined as the aggregate anti-gun groups in this country) do not care about sifting numbers any farther than is necessary to produce a frightening statistic ; the better to further their dog's breakfast of an agenda which is:

    (1) MONEY. Just as the NRA keeps sending me letters saying this is my "last chance" to renew my membership and "stop the gun-grabbers" (so they can send me letters as a member asking me for more money to battle whatever); so the Brady Bunch needs to create an national emergency/ safety issue etc; and/or the ever effective "threat to children" twaddle to get various sundry nincompoops to send in a check. This is the equivvalent of , on the one hand, Wayne's kid needs braces and on the other hand Sarah maybe wants a "lifestyle lift" or something. Or maybe they both need a new boat.

    (2) SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT. Lots of these anti-gun types need to feel like they are "Making A Difference", They want to get a pat on the back, to be recognized for their efforts at something. So they make a big show of standing up to the "powerful gun lobby" and doing something "for the common good" And of course since us gun folks are so damn dangerous (and of course we are not and they damned well know it) they can portray themselves as physically brave into the bargain. Snot-nosed kids, the lot of them (including some older kids who never grew up).

    (3) PROMOTION OF VARIOUS DELUSIONAL WORLDVIEWS. Lots of these types really and truly believe that "society" can "evolve" and "transcend violence" if only firearms were eliminated. Why this is so, seeing that before firearms people were killing each other quite as freely is something they cannot explain. I personally love messing with these people. They really and truly cannot handle reality.

    (4)BELIEF THAT "THE GOVERNMENT" SHOULD HAVE A "MONOPOLY ON FORCE" meaning that the "government" should be able to impose anything on anybody at any time provided, of course, that "the government" is who they want in power.

    I could probably write a Master's thesis on the various subgroups of the above but you get the idea. They are a lot like the anti-evolutionists who sieze on every whacky thing they can to "prove" that oh, say, Noah had Brontosaurii on the Ark, etc. They are largely also the types who believe in "manmade climate change" and other such idiocy; and for them the complete picture presents an "inconvenient truth" that they will bend over backwards to obfuscate or ignore.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    107? That's it?

    How about the cops? How many have they killed just because they know they can get away with it, or thought they could?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Phoenix David wrote:
    How did the fact that they had a CCW facilitate the crime that they committed? Did it allow them to access a place where non-CCW holders would not have been allowed to posses a weapon?
    Don't you know? Having a gun handy made 'anger' an easier option... There is no way any of it could have been pre-meditated. There is no way the same 'anger' could have been amplified by any other object. There is no way they could have gotten a gun any other way than to have been born with it attached to their hip.... It's just impossible for anything bad to happen if you don't have a gun on you.

    [/sarcasm]

    But, you'd have to beleive that all to be true for their arguments to make any sense.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member opusd2's Avatar
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    I'm glad that after reading these comments that I am not the only one who keeps in mind that LEOs are as guilty as the common criminals who decide that human lives mean nothing. However, most criminals don't get a paid vacation or sit at a desk while their innocence it being tried.
    I aim to misbehave

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    Interesting.

    the rate of these type of incidents to CCW holders is .0017%

    The latest numbers I can find for Firearms deaths is 1998, but looking at those numbers (30,419) divided by US population in 1998 (270,298,524) brings us .0112%. So If I am reading this right, a CCW holder is 6.5 times less likely to commit one of these crimes then the average person.




  24. #24
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    opusd2 wrote:
    I'm glad that after reading these comments that I am not the only one who keeps in mind that LEOs are as guilty as the common criminals who decide that human lives mean nothing. However, most criminals don't get a paid vacation or sit at a desk while their innocence it being tried.
    There are some present and former LEOs on this board - such as, oh, ME. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that your comment is highly insulting.

    When specific incidents are being discussed it is one thing. Tarring and feathering on general principles is quite another. I think I jave enough of a rep around here to be known as anything but a statist sympathizer. It is one thing to note that the power commensurat with an LEO's office provides a plethora of opportunities and avenues for abuse, etc; and that some LEOs go that route either deliberately or in honest error of the scope aand nature of their mission etc.



    It is quite another thing to say that peace officers as a group are no better than "common criminals". That is sorta like saying that firemen are no better than arsonists.

    Besides which there is a rule here against LEO bashing. Which you just broke, in spades. I am not gonna go whining to John or Mike about this, but you owe a few of your brother OCDOers an profound apology. If that is you are actually one of us.

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    Actually I just went to that website

    In 2009, the Violence Policy Center began an ongoing research project to identify killings beginning in May 2007 to the present by individuals with concealed handgun permits.
    So these numbers are not even from 1 year. At this point we are talking 2.5 years data.

    So, if I take that data, and expound a little.

    In 1998 there were 30,419 homicides, suicides, accidents involving firearms.

    If we take that as a typical year, then lets multiple that number by 2.5 so we are comparing apples to apples here

    So in 2.5 years, we have about 76,048 of these incidents, nationwide.

    Now lets divide that by our population *july 1998 (304,059,724) = .025%

    So now we compare these crimes committed by our population in general (.025%), vs the same crimes committed by our CCW holders (.0017%)

    and we see that the CCW holders are 14.5 times less likely to commit one of these crimes, vs general population.

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